Can you be cast out of heaven?

[chris4243]

I never claimed anything like that. You might have me confused with the grammar poster before he deleted his post.

If you follow the little arrow on the post I quoted, you can check whether you did write about Satan being so stupid that he thought to openly rebel against God. Generally when someone calls something stupid, the implication is that they wouldn't do such a thing, hence the implication that you're more clever than the greatest of all angels, while in the same paragraph mentioning about how he is vain.

 

[Iakobos]

It wasn't your silly speculations that irritated me, but your mocking of Christians. It irritates me when Christians, in an argument, end it by saying "God bless you" when they didn't mean it. It irritates me just the same when someone who is obviously mocking the Bible talks about the "holy spirit" and calls me "brother" as if he is some kind of a believer or a seeker. Blunt honesty is always more honorable than games such as this.

You shouldn't let such things take away your peace. I am a seeker though and i do see you as a brother. I also do not like it when people insinuate that i will burn in hell, it's not nice. I played my part though and i'm sorry if i offended you. Thats all honest.

 

[Galvanized]

You shouldn't let such things take away your peace. I am a seeker though and i do see you as a brother. I also do not like it when people insinuate that i will burn in hell, it's not nice. I played my part though and i'm sorry if i offended you. Thats all honest.

You have my full apology then. A lot of people come to these forums merely to insult us, not to get serious questions answered.

 

[Galvanized]

If you follow the little arrow on the post I quoted, you can check whether you did write about Satan being so stupid that he thought to openly rebel against God. Generally when someone calls something stupid, the implication is that they wouldn't do such a thing, hence the implication that you're more clever than the greatest of all angels, while in the same paragraph mentioning about how he is vain.

I said we are all vain, and I said humanity was capable of even greater stupidity. I of course wouldn't rebel against God the way Satan specifically did... But then again, I have the gift of knowing what happened after he did so. I certainly rebel against God in other ways. If you have a better explanation of things, it would be appreciated.

 

[Iakobos]

You have my full apology then. A lot of people come to these forums merely to insult us, not to get serious questions answered.

No worries, thanks brother.

 

[Pure760]

It is not possible to sin in heaven because firstly you would not want to, it would be like choosing to eat burning coals over a king sized buffet with everything you could imagine. Secondly one little sin will keep you out.

Heaven is the truest and wisest state of being, it is not a destination, you will not be put there unwillingly. You reach heaven through the realization that the free will granted to you is being used for sin and to remain in hell. You will eventually become weary of this delusional state and gradually give up on it, ascending to heaven. This process keeps going while you're alive and keeps going after your life.

Technically, you're already in heaven at this moment but choosing to percieve hell. So I suppose to answer why rebel? Because you don't know any better, you don't know that you're actively working to keep yourself out of heaven, when one could simply stop and be there.

 

[Iakobos]

It is not possible to sin in heaven because firstly you would not want to, it would be like choosing to eat burning coals over a king sized buffet with everything you could imagine. Secondly one little sin will keep you out.

Heaven is the truest and wisest state of being, it is not a destination, you will not be put there unwillingly. You reach heaven through the realization that the free will granted to you is being used for sin and to remain in hell. You will eventually become weary of this delusional state and gradually give up on it, ascending to heaven. This process keeps going while you're alive and keeps going after your life.

Technically, you're already in heaven at this moment but choosing to percieve hell. So I suppose to answer why rebel? Because you don't know any better, you don't know that you're actively working to keep yourself out of heaven, when one could simply stop and be there.

Thats an interesting way of putting it.

 

[Galvanized]

You might find this interesting. His overall topic is basically politics, but halfway down he goes into a lengthy discussion on the "Last Judgment" and his views on "Eternity". It'll probably confuse you, as it confuses me, but it's something else to broaden your thoughts on things, whether it is correct or not.

The Structure of the Revolutionary Mind

This is Olavo De Carvalho, a Brazilian philosopher.

 

[Iakobos]

You might find this interesting. His overall topic is basically politics, but halfway down he goes into a lengthy discussion on the "Last Judgment" and his views on "Eternity". It'll probably confuse you, as it confuses me, but it's something else to broaden your thoughts on things, whether it is correct or not.

The Structure of the Revolutionary Mind

This is Olavo De Carvalho, a Brazilian philosopher.

I'll have a read, thanks.

 

[drich0150]

So were they cast out immediately? Is there a time limit or something lol

It would seem that way, according to how the scriptures are read.

Really? So i can't curse in heaven or become prideful or angry?

In this life you are choosing to adopt (Or not) the will of God in the next. So no.

I mean having the ability to sin whether through my words, intent, feelings, thinkings. Exercising my free will to do good or bad. If i can't behave like a jerk and can only think pure and holy thoughts then isn't my free will more limited then it was while on earth?

yes.

I can offer no such verse. I always assumed it was sinless because God says he can't be in the presence of sin.

Again it is in this life that we choose to adopt the will of the Father in the next.

Paradise and heaven to me is the same thing. I define it as sinless, the ideal living environment.

Then I can not speak to your understanding of the perfect living environment.

oh, well i have heard that before but i hear so many different interpretations that i don't know what to believe. In any case, does that mean you can be cast out from the new earth?

It less of an interpretation and more of an actual description of a literal verse in Revelations. An interpretation would be to give you a yes or no answer to this question when one has not been provided.

OK but how do you know, does the bible clearly say this? Or are you implying that i will lack the ability to do my own will?

Because the will of the Father is for us to live without sin. (this is stated over and over in scripture.) Add that to the descriptions of Heaven we have (Without sin suffering or pain) and we can conclude that sin is no longer an option. (whether by choice or by lack of opportunity.) so we will indeed be living in the Will of the Father.

OK, they rebelled against God of the universe because they thought they could do better. They can't even create life! Or can they? How idiotic would you have to be to buy into such thinkings? I just can't get past it, too absurd.

you are condemning them because you do not believe they weighed their decisions, when in fact their may have been opportunity or options you do not see or understand. They may have simply been out and out jealous of the relationship God had with man, and they wanted what man had, and apparently risked literal Hell to get it.

So they were ignorant of the wages of sin? How could you be held accountable for something you did not understand?

Do you think them to be so foolish as to not understand the will of God? The bible says their sin was that of Pride. One does not need to have a complete understanding of anything to be guilt of this.

If anyone was living in the expressed will of God i would think it was that lot. I mean they visually saw him,heard him and served him. Still wasn't enough though! To think that anything could have the capacity NOT to be satisfied with God says a lot. He created them knowing He would not keep them happy even in His presence, very flawed.

Perhaps the happiness they sought was the full attention Man received from God.

How much more flawed are we then when we are not even in contact as they were. Of course we will sin every second of every day! The entire thing seems like a twisted game.

How so?

 

[Emmy]

Dear Iacobos. Strong`s Exhaustive Concordance Of The Bible tells us that the origin of Satan is unknown, that proves to me the well-known fact,: any place devoid of God`s Light = Darkness. Satan/Evil was found somewhere up in heaven, and found other like-minded beings, and God threw out the lot. The fact is : when the Serpent had found a chance to talk and lie to Adam and Eve, ( our proto-types) they rather believed the lies of the Serpent/tempter, than the Love of God. The Bible tells us how Adam and Eve were banished to Earth, and all Mankind after them. Instead of repenting, all Mankind grew farther and farther away from God, and became more selfish and unloving. In time Jesus came, and paid the prize we ( Mankind) could not pay to God`s Law. Jesus died that we might live, He became our Saviour and reconciled us to God. Jesus showed us God as God really is: our Heavenly Father who wants us back again. The Bible told us again and again: " Repent," change from being selfish and unloving: to Loving God with all our hearts, with all our souls, and with all our minds. Also: Love our neighbour: all others, friends or not friends, as we love ourselves. In Matthew, chapter 22, verses 35-40, Jesus tells a Lawyer: " The first and great Commandment, also the second Commandment. God wants our Love, selfless and freely given, without conditions asked. God is Love and God wants loving children/sons and daughters to live with Him for eternity. Jesus our Saviour, also The Way back to God where we came from, is waiting to help and lead us back to where we came from. Heaven/God`s Kingdom is ALL LOVE, and only God our Heavenly Father and all Christian brothers and sisters will be found there. There will be none of the empty and shortlived pleasures you are looking for, and Satan`s empty promises and lies will be no temptation at all, Satan will have no chance in Heaven. We are on Earth to learn to say NO to all Satan`s empty promises, and we will have learned the meaning of selfless Love and Charity. I say this with love. Greetings from Emmy, sister in Christ.

 

[elman]

Deleeted.

 

[elman]

So they say angels were cast out of heaven. I thought God couldn't be in the presence of sin and yet even in his own home iniquity was found in satan? Which then spread onto a bunch of other angels. It sounds pretty crazy.

So original sin started in heaven? When satan became full of pride? Does that means it is possible to sin in heaven? Can you sin when your up there too or is free will limited so that it isn't possible? So we have less will then we had on earth? It really doesn't make sense how sin could develop there in the first place when the bible says that heaven is perfect and Holy. Or perhaps that is just my impression. Does that mean that heaven is not paradise? That it has the capacity to house sin? Could you hypothetically be cast out for cursing someone or disobeying God? Some of you would say that you wouldn't desire too but how can you know that? I mean a bunch of angels thought it was a good idea, even though they were serving God for God knows how long.

Which begs the question of why rebel? Was living up there so boring or terrible that after a few thousand years they decided they wanted better? Did all the worship and service become tiresome? It's obvious that the ones who rebelled didn't want to go on living as they had, even in heaven they were not happy. I can't help but wonder how strong the drive must have been to openly rebel against the creator of the universe after you had served him and seen the limitless power he had. Such a thing would take tremendous courage or tremendous idiocy. The odds would never be in your favour, in fact if you'd known God even as much as we do. You would realise it was impossible to win. Yet they still did it! Just what manner of life is it up there! To drive someone to war against a God? I find it absurd.

I don't believe in original sin or Satan. I suspect we will continue to be volunteers in Heaven and will be allowed to leave if we wanted. I doubt we will want to leave.

 

[Iakobos]

It would seem that way, according to how the scriptures are read.
In this life you are choosing to adopt (Or not) the will of God in the next. So no.


yes.

Again it is in this life that we choose to adopt the will of the Father in the next.

Then I can not speak to your understanding of the perfect living environment.


It less of an interpretation and more of an actual description of a literal verse in Revelations. An interpretation would be to give you a yes or no answer to this question when one has not been provided.

Because the will of the Father is for us to live without sin. (this is stated over and over in scripture.) Add that to the descriptions of Heaven we have (Without sin suffering or pain) and we can conclude that sin is no longer an option. (whether by choice or by lack of opportunity.) so we will indeed be living in the Will of the Father.


you are condemning them because you do not believe they weighed their decisions, when in fact their may have been opportunity or options you do not see or understand. They may have simply been out and out jealous of the relationship God had with man, and they wanted what man had, and apparently risked literal Hell to get it.

Do you think them to be so foolish as to not understand the will of God? The bible says their sin was that of Pride. One does not need to have a complete understanding of anything to be guilt of this.

Perhaps the happiness they sought was the full attention Man received from God.

How so?

If we were actually in contact with God don't you think it would be easier to fight sin? Instead of having to ponder whether or not he exists and whether or not we are wasting our time with this belief. Everything would be more confronting and real. I for one would find it way easier to listen to him and obey if i knew for sure that he was real and was watching. Even more so if i met up with him every week or so to chat or something.

 

[Iakobos]

I don't believe in original sin or Satan. I suspect we will continue to be volunteers in Heaven and will be allowed to leave if we wanted. I doubt we will want to leave.

Finally! I knew there had to be some christians around who found satan to be absurd. I also like your view on heaven! Being locked up somewhere doesn't sound like much a party.

 

[drich0150]

If we were actually in contact with God don't you think it would be easier to fight sin?

What is their to fight? Christ has already defeated sin by his actions on the cross. The "fight" is over for all who want it to be.

Instead of having to ponder whether or not he exists and whether or not we are wasting our time with this belief. Everything would be more confronting and real. I for one would find it way easier to listen to him and obey if i knew for sure that he was real and was watching.

Perhaps, this life and out initial ignorance of God is kinda the point of the life we were given. In that we are to prove to ourselves our true nature. So at our judgment their is no doubt of who we are, nor will we be able to deceive ourselves about our true nature. This can only be accomplished (as you alluded) if we don't know for sure that God is watching.

Even more so if i met up with him every week or so to chat or something.

What about everyday all day?

 

[razeontherock]

I think as far as stupid moves go, trying to overthrow the creator of the universe takes the cake

I don't see the Bible saying anything about satan trying to overthrow G-d. he merely wanted to be like Him ... which was enough for G-d to invent war on the spot, and create US to enforce His victory.

Please consider the grave warning given us, how angels fell in the first place, (we are not told) and that they can not be redeemed.

 

[Faulty]

If we were actually in contact with God don't you think it would be easier to fight sin? Instead of having to ponder whether or not he exists and whether or not we are wasting our time with this belief. Everything would be more confronting and real. I for one would find it way easier to listen to him and obey if i knew for sure that he was real and was watching. Even more so if i met up with him every week or so to chat or something.

If only that were true.

Adam and Eve did see and walk with Him, and they sinned.

Multitudes walked with Jesus and interacted for several years in His first coming, but most rejected Him.

Jesus will again be physically here on earth for all to see for a full 1,000 years, but yet again, a great multitude will rise up at the end and seek to overthrow Him.

Seeing Him wouldn't solve anything.

But as Paul told those in Athens, "The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead.” Acts 17:30-31

This is what has been said to all of us as well.

 

[elman]

If only that were true.

Adam and Eve did see and walk with Him, and they sinned.

Multitudes walked with Jesus and interacted for several years in His first coming, but most rejected Him.

Jesus will again be physically here on earth for all to see for a full 1,000 years, but yet again, a great multitude will rise up at the end and seek to overthrow Him.

Seeing Him wouldn't solve anything.

But as Paul told those in Athens, "The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead.” Acts 17:30-31

This is what has been said to all of us as well.

I don't see where it says Jesus is coming back physically.

 

[Galvanized]

I don't believe in original sin or Satan. I suspect we will continue to be volunteers in Heaven and will be allowed to leave if we wanted. I doubt we will want to leave.

You basically deny the vast majority of the Bible, the work of Christ Himself, and any semblance of Christianity, reducing it all into something shallow and meaningless... much like the average modern Christian. You won't be a volunteer in heaven, I guarantee it.