Can you be a creationist and evolutionist?

Willtor

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Hopefully this is the right section to ask this.

Can you be a creationist and evolutionist? Believe that God created the earth and everything on it but believe in macro evolution as well? Really confused on this one.

This is better asked in the Origins Theology forum. But the short answer is, yes. Typically, people who believe that evolution is one of God's tools are called "Theistic Evolutionists" though some prefer the term "Evolutionary Creationists" since the latter is more specific and makes "evolution" the adjective. If you have thoughts or ideas or questions along these lines, there is a subforum of Origins Theology called Theistic Evolution, but more general debate threads are typically posted in the parent forum.
 
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lawtonfogle

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Hopefully this is the right section to ask this.

Can you be a creationist and evolutionist? Believe that God created the earth and everything on it but believe in macro evolution as well? Really confused on this one.

Yes, and there are different forms.

Many believe God had started the earth in such a way things evolved as we now see it, but there are other beliefs, such as a literal young earth creation with the catch that the earth was created so it appeared that all life evolved, and so that all life was, from the moment of creation (or the fall of man) continuing to evolve. The important thing to remember is that matters of faith and matters of science have two very different criteria.
 
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Willtor

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Yes, and there are different forms.

Many believe God had started the earth in such a way things evolved as we now see it, but there are other beliefs, such as a literal young earth creation with the catch that the earth was created so it appeared that all life evolved, and so that all life was, from the moment of creation (or the fall of man) continuing to evolve. The important thing to remember is that matters of faith and matters of science have two very different criteria.

I have met people who believe that God started the earth such that evolution would progress in the way that it has progressed, but I don't think they are common on these forums. Most of the TEs (Theistic Evolutionists) in Origins Theology have the view that God ordains all things and is present in all things, and as such, natural processes (physical, biological, etc.) bend to His will. Much as God's lordship over the weather does not negate the tools and theory of meteorology, so God's lordship over evolution does not negate the tools and theory of evolution.
 
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wayseer

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Hopefully this is the right section to ask this.

Can you be a creationist and evolutionist? Believe that God created the earth and everything on it but believe in macro evolution as well? Really confused on this one.

Why the dualism? Polarizing issues is more political than logical. There is no reason why one cannot accept science and the concept of God.
 
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ebia

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Hopefully this is the right section to ask this.

Can you be a creationist and evolutionist? Believe that God created the earth and everything on it but believe in macro evolution as well? Really confused on this one.
God and natural processes are not mutually exclusive. Rather, the natural processes, including evolution, are the result of God's outpouring, extravagant, creative love.

"God created" does not have to equate to "God broke the rules". God is in the ordinary as much as in the exceptional.
 
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Hayzel

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Can you be a creationist and evolutionist? Believe that God created the earth and everything on it but believe in macro evolution as well? Really confused on this one.

This is something I personally would not get caught in.

God made the world in six days and rested on the seventh. According time lines given in the bible, the earth isn't more than about 7 thousand years old. Also, God clearly says "And there was evening and there was morning, the ___ day." meaning the days are the same then as they are now.

There are also other errors if you attempt to mix evolution with creation. One error is that according to evolution, there is information being added to the DNA structure in order to create changes in the organism.

Ecclesiastes 1:9
What has been will be again,
what has been done will be done again;
there is nothing new under the sun.

This verse indicates that nothing new is coming in, and that nothing changes that incredibly. Also, there really isn't a single example of information being "naturally" added to an organism to improve it. There are examples of when you take away or change information, but not when it comes to adding information.

Another thing is, evolution indicates that we are improving or becoming better. I disagree with this. There are ancient structures such as the pyramids and also ancient objects such as glass skulls where we have no idea how they were able to create them. There are also records of Ancient Egyptians having electricity, plumbing and medicines. Evolution indicates that people were stupid then and are getting smarter, and even though when we compare ourselves over the past few hundred years we are more advanced, we cannot do many of the things ancients were able to. Thus, even though we may be smart, they were probably smarter.

Also, in biblical times people lived much longer. Hundreds of years in many cases. As time went on, these time periods became shorter and shorter. Back then they were able to live several hundred years and yet we have no knowledge of them having super advanced medical facilities or magic youth pills. They simply lived longer. This time period became the shortest in the middle ages when the average life span was between 30 and 40 years of age. However with the advancements of recent technology we've been able to survive until about 70-80 years of age on average. Still with the advancement of our technology we are not living nearly as long as they did then. I believe this to be a result of sin loss or incorrect sequences in the genetic codes. Imagine a document being copied over and over and over again. Things are missed, they fade or disappear. DNA copies itself from generation to generation, nothing is ever added and eventually the mistakes in it are causing our lives to become shorter. The mistakes in the code are causing more genetic, incurable problems and also leaving more weakness' for disease which is why at one point humans were only living on average to the age of 40. As much as we hate to admit it, we're getting worse, not better. God made us perfect in the beginning, and because of sin we are deteriorating continually.
 
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Willtor

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This is something I personally would not get caught in.

God made the world in six days and rested on the seventh. According time lines given in the bible, the earth isn't more than about 7 thousand years old. Also, God clearly says "And there was evening and there was morning, the ___ day." meaning the days are the same then as they are now.

A few TE's take the creation account as an historical record of events (though, they take it very differently from the modern literal interpretation), but most take it as figurative -- under the belief that God did not intend to give us an historical account of creation, but to use figure to tell us something about Himself, about us, and about how we relate to Him.

There are also other errors if you attempt to mix evolution with creation. One error is that according to evolution, there is information being added to the DNA structure in order to create changes in the organism.

I would recommend not using this argument against evolution. It isn't correct. Evolution doesn't say that information (in a technical sense) is being added. There were some mathematicians at one time who posited that evolution was contradicted by information theory. The problem was that there was no reliable way to apply "information" (as a technical word, not as an intuitive thing) that showed it increasing.

I know that it _looks_ to the casual observer like a human has "more information" than a human-like ancestor, but that is only because when you think of the word "information" you are using some intuitive notion of what information is. Unfortunately, information theory has its own definition of "information" that isn't so easily applied.

This verse indicates that nothing new is coming in, and that nothing changes that incredibly. Also, there really isn't a single example of information being "naturally" added to an organism to improve it. There are examples of when you take away or change information, but not when it comes to adding information.

The verse is actually not referring to DNA or evolution. The author is talking about the things that people do and how pointless they are. He begins his talk with "Vanity of vanities!, says the Teacher. Vanity of vanities! All is vanity." (NRSV) He is saying that human pursuits are pointless, in themselves. He sees the same things happen over and over again in the world and he is despairing of the point of it all.

There is a much more important spiritual lesson in Ecclesiastes than a trite refute of evolution. The modern literal interpretation of Genesis (as distinct from literal interpretations more than 150 or so years ago) are so overly obsessed with evolution that (in my opinion) they abuse Scripture. Be careful. Creationist teachers will point out the vast number of passages that oppose evolution, and in so doing remove their real value. Consider: suppose evolution disappeared tomorrow; I think that in the eyes of creationists there would be large amounts of Scripture that would cease to be useful.

Another thing is, evolution indicates that we are improving or becoming better. I disagree with this. There are ancient structures such as the pyramids and also ancient objects such as glass skulls where we have no idea how they were able to create them. There are also records of Ancient Egyptians having electricity, plumbing and medicines. Evolution indicates that people were stupid then and are getting smarter, and even though when we compare ourselves over the past few hundred years we are more advanced, we cannot do many of the things ancients were able to. Thus, even though we may be smart, they were probably smarter.

Evolution does not say we (or anything else) is becoming better, generally. It says that we (as a population) are becoming better at propagating our genes. Evolution does not say that people were stupid a few thousand years ago. Evolution is a very gradual process and humans have very long generations (as compared with many other species).

The ancients were probably not smarter than us. They were probably about the same. Technology is not a good indicator of how intelligent one society is as compared with another. This is the mistake a lot of people make in saying that we are smarter (e.g., putting a man on the moon, electronics, the combustion engine, etc.). But it is not so. We don't say that Americans are smarter than tribesmen with no connection to the rest of the world. Nor do we say that they are smarter.

Also, in biblical times people lived much longer. Hundreds of years in many cases. As time went on, these time periods became shorter and shorter. Back then they were able to live several hundred years and yet we have no knowledge of them having super advanced medical facilities or magic youth pills. They simply lived longer. This time period became the shortest in the middle ages when the average life span was between 30 and 40 years of age. However with the advancements of recent technology we've been able to survive until about 70-80 years of age on average. Still with the advancement of our technology we are not living nearly as long as they did then. I believe this to be a result of sin loss or incorrect sequences in the genetic codes. Imagine a document being copied over and over and over again. Things are missed, they fade or disappear. DNA copies itself from generation to generation, nothing is ever added and eventually the mistakes in it are causing our lives to become shorter. The mistakes in the code are causing more genetic, incurable problems and also leaving more weakness' for disease which is why at one point humans were only living on average to the age of 40. As much as we hate to admit it, we're getting worse, not better. God made us perfect in the beginning, and because of sin we are deteriorating continually.

The entrance of sin into the world didn't change our DNA or the chemical processes used to copy it. The ages of the people in the lineages were symbolic, not literal. The decrease in ages is intended to communicate a gradual falling away from the image of God. But the degree to which one reflects the image of God is not an indicator of how long someone will live, literally speaking.
 
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2ndRateMind

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This is something I personally would not get caught in...

And so you proceed to get caught. Hayzel, I do like it when new people come on the forums; each new soul and point of view adds a freshness and vitality to the same old arguments. But really, I do suggest you read up on what you criticise. Dawkins is good for neophytes. I suggest you begin with The Selfish Gene, and then progress to The Blind Watchmaker. A little familiarity with the arguments you oppose would help the debate along.

Best wishes, 2RM.
 
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Hayzel

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I'm choosing to not get in a debate over this because I realize any effort of mine to show other their errors will go to waste.

For those of you who answered me, many of your answers lacked proof to back them up. I have been studying evolution for quite some time, what I said may not have been part of the "theory" of evolution but is a direct result of evolution. Also, remember that only about 7-10% of Scientists in the National Academy of Scientists(where most of the ACCEPTED scientists are) even believe that there is a God. This means less than that are Christians. Bias affects "science" just as much as anything else. Please be careful before you believe the world as equal to God.
 
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2ndRateMind

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Please be careful before you believe the world as equal to God.

Funny, I thought God created the world. Am I missing something here, Hayzel? Surely whatever we can discover about the world, whether the discoverer believes in God or not, tells us something about God's providence, nature, methods, and intentions?

Best wishes, 2RM.
 
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The Penitent Man

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Why the dualism? Polarizing issues is more political than logical. There is no reason why one cannot accept science and the concept of God.

Science is dualistic because that's how our minds work, but GOD is beyond all dualities.
 
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Jpark

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Hopefully this is the right section to ask this.

Can you be a creationist and evolutionist? Believe that God created the earth and everything on it but believe in macro evolution as well? Really confused on this one.
Science and the Bible can agree, but not all aspects of science is from God. The theory of evolution and the Bible cannot agree.

What does the Bible say about Creation vs. evolution?

Got Questions Ministries said:
Evolution gives atheists a basis for explaining how life exists apart from a Creator God. Evolution denies the need for a God to be involved in the universe.

Science is merely the unbelievers explanation for life without a God. Not all aspects of science is satanic. There are some scientists who try to prove God and some scientists who try to disprove God and some scientists who are not interested.

Therefore, some science is from God and some science is from Satan and some science is from the unbelievers.

However, evolution is not from the unbelievers, but is from Satan. For evolution tries to disprove God.

Evolution is 100% satanic.
 
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Willtor

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I'm choosing to not get in a debate over this because I realize any effort of mine to show other their errors will go to waste.

By posting, you have entered the debate. Your responses continue to involve you. I'm afraid there's no way around that except to stop posting... though, I do hope you will continue on in the discussion. :)

For those of you who answered me, many of your answers lacked proof to back them up. I have been studying evolution for quite some time, what I said may not have been part of the "theory" of evolution but is a direct result of evolution. Also, remember that only about 7-10% of Scientists in the National Academy of Scientists(where most of the ACCEPTED scientists are) even believe that there is a God. This means less than that are Christians. Bias affects "science" just as much as anything else. Please be careful before you believe the world as equal to God.

I suspect that you have only studied evolution from creationist sources, though. The things you are saying are quite consistent with what creationist organizations say that evolution is, but are quite inconsistent with what evolutionists say that evolution is. Ultimately, I agree that what creationists call evolution is wrong. _That_ evolution is silly. However, the theory of evolution does not have any of the conclusions you have supposed.

I also think that a much greater percentage of scientists are theists. Where did you get your numbers? My experience is that most scientists are theists of some variety or another. I suspect that the 7-10% number is so low that a larger percentage (than 10%) of scientists are Christians. Of the well-published people in my group, one is Catholic, one is Protestant (I don't know what denomination), and one is an Atheist. I don't think my group is representative, but I don't think either the Catholic or the Protestant feel particularly alone or persecuted.

Lastly, I don't think anybody is making the world equal to God. That is something that creationist organizations say about non-creationists, but a little experience will show you that it isn't true. This leads to my second concern about creationist organizations (and creationist teachers): the tendency to bear false witness against their neighbors. They assign a lot of motives and believe in a lot of conspiracies, but a very small amount of investigation will bear out the falsity of these things. There are rabid, angry people who say wild things about Christianity and defend them in the name of evolution, of course, but if they're actually published evolutionists, you can bet none of that frothing nonsense actually makes it into the journals. They take quite a different tone when they are trying to get a paper accepted.
 
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There are some scientists who try to prove God and some scientists who try to disprove God
These people are not practising science.
However, evolution is not from the unbelievers, but is from Satan. For evolution tries to disprove God.

Evolution is 100% satanic.

Only for those who make do not understand evolution nor care to make the effort to understand it, or what the scientific method actually means in practice.
 
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