Can You At Least Admit that The Act is Wrong?

[Trying2BaFaithfulServant]

I guess I've always viewed Matthew 7:1-5 a little differently... Not that we can judge so long as we are not committing the same sin, but rather that we should not judge if we are guilty of any sin. I've always mentally linked this passage to John 8:2-11.

"Early in the morning he came again to the temple. All the people came to him and he sat down and began to teach them. The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in adultery; and making her stand before all of them, they said to him, ‘Teacher, this woman was caught in the very act of committing adultery. Now in the law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?’ They said this to test him, so that they might have some charge to bring against him. Jesus bent down and wrote with his finger on the ground. When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, ‘Let anyone among you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.’ And once again he bent down and wrote on the ground. When they heard it, they went away, one by one, beginning with the elders; and Jesus was left alone with the woman standing before him. Jesus straightened up and said to her, ‘Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?’ She said, ‘No one, sir.’ And Jesus said, ‘Neither do I condemn you. Go your way, and from now on do not sin again.’" John 8:2-11

Since we all fall short of the glory of God, then if my thinking were correct, none of us would be fit to judge.

On further contemplation on Matthew 7:2, "For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you" I tend to think that this is not necessarily encouragement to judge one another, but rather urging us to show mercy and forgiveness towards our brothers and sisters (be they believers or not).


For if I am to be measured by the measure that I use, I would like to be shown mercy and forgiveness. And this brings another passage to mind.

"Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, "Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?"
Jesus answered, "I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.
Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him. Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt.
The servant fell on his knees before him. 'Be patient with me,' he begged, 'and I will pay back everything.' The servant's master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go.
But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii. He grabbed him and began to choke him. 'Pay back what you owe me!' he demanded.
His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, 'Be patient with me, and I will pay you back.'
But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. When the other servants saw what had happened, they were greatly distressed and went and told their master everything that had happened.
Then the master called the servant in. 'You wicked servant,' he said, 'I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. Shouldn't you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?' In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.
This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart." Matthew 18:21-35

Thoughts?

 

[Zaac]

You are trying to get at some supposed acts that are sexual.

End of the subject is: it's not your bidniss!

I asked you to give me something of God's Word that affirms someone's same-sex acts. You have yet to do so.

You talk a good game, but you can't produce what does not exist.

You can give your opinion time and time again, but you can't show a single time where God confirms these acts.

He confirms His plan of marriage between a man and a woman, and His being a part of that covenant, but NOWHERE is there affirmation of same-sex acts.

Now you can go ad nauseum and start talking about stuff I didn't ask, but you still haven't presented anything of God's Word, my bidness or not, that affirms the committing of same-sex acts.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

You're not a professing Christian are you Wiccan Child?

Of course not. Just because I don't believe in the Bible doesn't mean I can't read it.

So what purpose does it serve for me to attempt to have a discussion about God's Word with you?

What purpose does it serve talking to anyone?
Actually, I've noticed that tact from a lot of Christians in the homosexuality subforum. They all eventually ponder why they should listen to me at all. I mean, how can a non-Christian know anything about Christianity?

So you can stop with the strawman arguments.

Strawman? I only extrapolated from your words. Feel free to correct me (with due justification, of course. It's fustratingly common for people to leave their claims dangling).

 

[ChaliceThunder]

I asked you to give me something of God's Word that affirms someone's same-sex acts. You have yet to do so.

You talk a good game, but you can't produce what does not exist.

You can give your opinion time and time again, but you can't show a single time where God confirms these acts.

He confirms His plan of marriage between a man and a woman, and His being a part of that covenant, but NOWHERE is there affirmation of same-sex acts.

Now you can go ad nauseum and start talking about stuff I didn't ask, but you still haven't presented anything of God's Word, my bidness or not, that affirms the committing of same-sex acts.

I will offer Wiccan Child's statement, since you won't accept it from him.

You appear to be somewhat obsessed with homosexual acts and what God does or does not say about them - but it truly appears to be an unhealthy obsession.

Zaac, God is not finished speaking to us. The truth continues to be revealed in you and me and the world around us. I pray that you will come to an even deeper knowledge and love of God.

 

[Zaac]

I guess I've always viewed Matthew 7:1-5 a little differently... Not that we can judge so long as we are not committing the same sin, but rather that we should not judge if we are guilty of any sin. I've always mentally linked this passage to John 8:2-11.

"Early in the morning he came again to the temple. All the people came to him and he sat down and began to teach them. The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in adultery; and making her stand before all of them, they said to him, ‘Teacher, this woman was caught in the very act of committing adultery. Now in the law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?’ They said this to test him, so that they might have some charge to bring against him. Jesus bent down and wrote with his finger on the ground. When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, ‘Let anyone among you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.’ And once again he bent down and wrote on the ground. When they heard it, they went away, one by one, beginning with the elders; and Jesus was left alone with the woman standing before him. Jesus straightened up and said to her, ‘Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?’ She said, ‘No one, sir.’ And Jesus said, ‘Neither do I condemn you. Go your way, and from now on do not sin again.’" John 8:2-11

Since we all fall short of the glory of God, then if my thinking were correct, none of us would be fit to judge.

None of us are fit to pass final judgment on the heart. That rests with God alone. But you have to judge peoples acts or else it would be impossible to show them why they are in need of a Savior.

This is whyunlike Joel Osteen, the Full Counsel of God's Word has to be preached and not just the "good" stuff. People have to know just how wrong and sinful their lives are. And until they come to grips with their sin as placed against the righteous judgment of the truth of God's Word, they will never confess and repent of their sin.

On further contemplation on Matthew 7:2, "For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you" I tend to think that this is not necessarily encouragement to judge one another, but rather urging us to show mercy and forgiveness towards our brothers and sisters (be they believers or not).

That verse by itself is more like a warning to let you know that if you hypocritically judge, that you can ultimately expect the same measure of judgment to be rendered against you. Don't read anything more into it than is in the text.

For if I am to be measured by the measure that I use, I would like to be shown mercy and forgiveness. And this brings another passage to mind.

But in accord with Ezekiel 3:18, you are responsible for the other person's blood if you don't point it out to them. If you are a Christian, God EXPECTS you to witness His truth to the World, not sit back and not correct it.

That's why the Church is in disarray right now. No one has wanted to correct that which is wrong and Church discipline has thus been non-existent.

"Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, "Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?"
Jesus answered, "I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.
Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him. Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt.
The servant fell on his knees before him. 'Be patient with me,' he begged, 'and I will pay back everything.' The servant's master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go.
But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii. He grabbed him and began to choke him. 'Pay back what you owe me!' he demanded.
His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, 'Be patient with me, and I will pay you back.'
But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. When the other servants saw what had happened, they were greatly distressed and went and told their master everything that had happened.
Then the master called the servant in. 'You wicked servant,' he said, 'I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. Shouldn't you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?' In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.
This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart." Matthew 18:21-35

Thoughts?

Perfect example for why we are to RIGHTEOUSLY judge. The wicked servant unrighteously judged and treated his debtor differently from how he was treated for a similar debt.

He was accordingly judged with the same measure of judgment with which he judged his debtor.

 

[IamRedeemed]

None of us are fit to pass final judgment on the heart. That rests with God alone. But you have to judge peoples acts or else it would be impossible to show them why they are in need of a Savior.

This is whyunlike Joel Osteen, the Full Counsel of God's Word has to be preached and not just the "good" stuff. People have to know just how wrong and sinful their lives are. And until they come to grips with their sin as placed against the righteous judgment of the truth of God's Word, they will never confess and repent of their sin.



That verse by itself is more like a warning to let you know that if you hypocritically judge, that you can ultimately expect the same measure of judgment to be rendered against you. Don't read anything more into it than is in the text.



But in accord with Ezekiel 3:18, you are responsible for the other person's blood if you don't point it out to them. If you are a Christian, God EXPECTS you to witness His truth to the World, not sit back and not correct it.

That's why the Church is in disarray right now. No one has wanted to correct that which is wrong and Church discipline has thus been non-existent.



Perfect example for why we are to RIGHTEOUSLY judge. The wicked servant unrighteously judged and treated his debtor differently from how he was treated for a similar debt.

He was accordingly judged with the same measure of judgment with which he judged his debtor.

 

[Zaac]

Of course not. Just because I don't believe in the Bible doesn't mean I can't read it.

What do you mean you don't believe in it? If you can read it, how can you not believe in it. It really does exist.

Now did you mean you don't believe what it says?

What purpose does it serve talking to anyone?

I talk to people about issues of God who say they are Christians. The only thing that I'm going to talk about to a nonChristian is the issue of sin and why they need Christ.

It serves NO PURPOSE to discuss the need for you to do right if you don't have Jesus. If you do right and don't have Jesus, you'd still be going to hell.

Actually, I've noticed that tact from a lot of Christians in the homosexuality subforum. They all eventually ponder why they should listen to me at all. I mean, how can a non-Christian know anything about Christianity?

I don't mind listening to you. I like you. Butwhy would I attempt to discuss things discerned by the Spirit with someone who is not indwelled by the Spirit?

Strawman? I only extrapolated from your words. Feel free to correct me (with due justification, of course. It's fustratingly common for people to leave their claims dangling).

Ungh ungh man. Don't be extrapolating from my words. I'll say what I intend to say with little or no need for extrapolation.

 

[Abufihamat]

I see all these threads on homosexuality. Is there a homosexual on this board who, regardless of how you think you were born, can agree with God's Word about the committing of homosexual ACTS?

"They", would'nt have a problem were it not for the death penalty afterward. Or the fact you'd regulate controlling or threatening they're populations to be coerced.

God has a time for everyone -- and God does not regulate time for men to act like Gods.

 

[Zaac]

I will offer Wiccan Child's statement, since you won't accept it from him.

You appear to be somewhat obsessed with homosexual acts and what God does or does not say about them - but it truly appears to be an unhealthy obsession.

Ummm. You STILL didn't answer the question.

Nice try with the red herring.

Zaac, God is not finished speaking to us. The truth continues to be revealed in you and me and the world around us. I pray that you will come to an even deeper knowledge and love of God.

Test the spirits man. If something is being revealed to you that disagrees with God's Word, then someone other than God is speaking to you.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

What do you mean you don't believe in it? If you can read it, how can you not believe in it. It really does exist.

Now did you mean you don't believe what it says?

I take it you've never heard of a figure of speech.

I talk to people about issues of God who say they are Christians. The only thing that I'm going to talk about to a nonChristian is the issue of sin and why they need Christ.

It serves NO PURPOSE to discuss the need for you to do right if you don't have Jesus. If you do right and don't have Jesus, you'd still be going to hell.

Very well. I accept Jesus as my Lord and Saviour, and acknowledge his selfless sacrifice as penance for my sins. Amen.
Now will you talk?

I don't mind listening to you. I like you. Butwhy would I attempt to discuss things discerned by the Spirit with someone who is not indwelled by the Spirit?

As I mentioned before, I am now filled with the awesome power of the Holy Ghost, Holiest of Holies.

Ungh ungh man. Don't be extrapolating from my words. I'll say what I intend to say with little or no need for extrapolation.

Be that as it may, was my extrapolation correct?

 

[Zaac]

I take it you've never heard of a figure of speech.

Man stop talking about speechwhen you don't realize that you're including yourself when you say US.

Very well. I accept Jesus as my Lord and Saviour, and acknowledge his selfless sacrifice as penance for my sins. Amen.
Now will you talk?

I don't have a problem talking to you. Just not about things of the Spirit for you can have no understanding of them. You got to be born again before you understand that which is discerned by the Spirit.

As I mentioned before, I am now filled with the awesome power of the Holy Ghost, Holiest of Holies.

mocking not received

Be that as it may, was my extrapolation correct?

Nope. The logical fallacy of your extrapolation is that you presented a supposition and then proceeded to extrapolate a conclusion that was based on the logic of your supposition while attempting to assign the original supposition to be aligned with something I said.

And since I didn't say it, your extrapolation is incorrect.

 

[Brennin]

You appear to be somewhat obsessed with homosexual acts and what God does or does not say about them - but it truly appears to be an unhealthy obsession.

This forum is specifically devoted to debating homosexuality. What else do you expect him to discuss here?

 

[ChaliceThunder]

This forum is specifically devoted to debating homosexuality. What else do you expect him to discuss here?

homosexuality does not equate to homosexual acts.

And I don't mind discussing the topic, but I am just a little creeped out that there are a bunch of people on CF who are more interested in gay sex than most gay people.

 

[imind]

It implies that a lot of folks are trying to make God's Word say what they want it to say rather than just dealing with what it says.

you're oversimplifying the situation. you're speaking of a book written some 2000 years ago, in different languages than our own. do you speak greek, hebrew, aramaic? if not, you've really got to ask yourself if you're in a position to be telling anyone what it SAYS. also, with translations to different languages, meanings are oftentimes skewed. do you have anything to counter this, as i see you have not addressed it...

Compound words do not necessarily derive their meaning from the meaning of their component words.

To understand has noting to do with standing or having dangled above ones head.
Chairman is neither a man transformed into a chair or a chair sculpted to look like a person.

koitLs is in reference to a bed, not specifically carnal relations. Worse for koitLs is feminine (i know gnedered words are strange ot me too) …so therefore it is a female or woman’s bed the man is in. making the claim of it maning homoseexual even more unlikely.

even ignoring the gender of the bed the man is in it is equally plausible to claim that the two root words for arsenokoités come together to mean a man who stays in bed thus meaning Paul is condemning the lazy.

The only reliable way to define a word is to analyze its use. The fact that writers contemporary to Paul were also using this word (even though rarely) indicates that Paul did not just make the word up nor did he created this word from combining words from the Septuagint. However writers contemporary to Paul did not use arsenokoités to mean homosexual. In fact the translators of the bible didn’t make arsenokoités mane homosexual in its other appearance in the new testament. Writers contemporary to Paul were using arsenokoités to mean a man purchases sex from a women…that is a man who employs prostiutes. (and thanks to the gender of the bed we can say it is a female prostute being employed.)

And the final nail in the coffin of arsenokoités being twisted to mean homosexual comes from the basic fact that ancient Greek had several well known words that meant homosexual and or homosexual relations, if Paul had wanted to specifically condemn homosexuals he would have used these well known words not an obscure word meaning, in modern vernacular “a John”

I mean seriously, have you not seen all the discourse that has taken place to display the committing of homosexual acts in a favorable light? I can twist Scripture and explanations of Scripture to say whatever I want.

i've seen good arguements and bad arguements, but you seem to suggest that the mere fact of the existance of these arguements means their wrong. i don't see twisting of scripture. ironically, i see them taking a more literal interpretive approach, as the current english writings of the bible have seemingly taken pretty loose translations of some words.

But when people deal with what a verse actually SAYS, and they use what it actually says to understand what it actually says somewhere else, there is no confusion.

this is exactly what was noted in the above quote by mrpirate. they have guaged the use of arsenokoités elsewhere, and determined its meaning. why does it mean homosexual? i would also like to reiterate that what something SAYS is not always the same to everyone, and what it SAYS to you may not be correct.

To get a correct understanding of God's Word, Christians have to deal with the text and what it SAYS not what we think it implies.

you mean to say, christians have to deal with the text and what it SAYS, according to zaac, and not what we think it implies.

You're not a professing Christian are you Wiccan Child? So what purpose does it serve for me to attempt to have a discussion about God's Word with you?

...

I don't have a problem talking to you. Just not about things of the Spirit for you can have no understanding of them. You got to be born again before you understand that which is discerned by the Spirit.

now wait a second. you just finished suggesting that all we have to do is take what is SAID in scripture, and now you say there is more to it than that. some sort of spiritual discernment must be applied, yes? so what happens when two people arrive at two different conclusions when both have used this spiritual discernment? catholics have used their spiritual discernment to include scripture that other denominations dismiss. doesn't sound like spiritual discernment is going to get us very far, as it seems unreliable.

They can create what ever the heck they want but they cannot justify them rationally.
Actually they are just as easy to justify as any religious based ethical system.

Religious based ethics use (for the most part) an appeal to authority for rationalization

That's what you seem to be missing. They cannot justify the immorality of someone killing babies for fun.

Yes they can.
Christians can justify the immorality of killing babies by appealing to a secondary authority, God.
Atheists can justify the immorality of killing babies by appealing to a secondary authority, society.

lolz. well said, mrpirate. i noticed a certain someone hasn't replied to this. funny how often some make claims of something being 'illogical' and 'irrational' when they are in fact logical and rational. someone may want to study some more before throwing words around he doesn't know the meaning of.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Man stop talking about speechwhen you don't realize that you're including yourself when you say US.

As I explained in the thread, my intention was to include myself.
And you criticise me on conjugation when you cannot differentiate between the nominative 'we' and the accusative 'us'? I smell a hypocrite, brothers and sisters.

I don't have a problem talking to you. Just not about things of the Spirit for you can have no understanding of them. You got to be born again before you understand that which is discerned by the Spirit.




mocking not received

You doubt my Christianity? The mods frown upon that most strongly, Zaac.

Nope. The logical fallacy of your extrapolation is that you presented a supposition and then proceeded to extrapolate a conclusion that was based on the logic of your supposition while attempting to assign the original supposition to be aligned with something I said.

Nonsense. I made no supposition, and I made no attempt to link your words to a strawman. I also question why you said, 'a conclusion that was based on the logic of your supposition'. What else would I be basing it on?

I took your words, extrapolated on them, and posted a refutation thereof:
Your exact words were: "Then give me something of God's Word that affirms anybody's same-sex acts". Given the rest of the post, I can see no other reason for this request than to conclude that if something is not explicitly condoned by the Bible, then it is necessarily condemned.
Where did I suppose anything other than my extrapolation?

And since I didn't say it, your extrapolation is incorrect.

If your logic is correct, then logically you did not write post #126. Is this true?

 

[ReformedChapin]

you're oversimplifying the situation. you're speaking of a book written some 2000 years ago, in different languages than our own. do you speak greek, hebrew, aramaic? if not, you've really got to ask yourself if you're in a position to be telling anyone what it SAYS. also, with translations to different languages, meanings are oftentimes skewed. do you have anything to counter this, as i see you have not addressed it...


i've seen good arguements and bad arguements, but you seem to suggest that the mere fact of the existance of these arguements means their wrong. i don't see twisting of scripture. ironically, i see them taking a more literalistic approach, as the current english writings of the bible have seemingly taken pretty loose translations of some words.

this is exactly what was noted in the above quote by mrpirate. they have guaged the use of arsenokoités elsewhere, and determined its meaning. why does it mean homosexual? i would also like to reiterate that what something SAYS is not always the same to everyone, and what it SAYS to you may not be correct.

you mean to say, christians have to deal with the text and what it SAYS, according to zaac, and not what we think it implies.

now wait a second. you just finished suggesting that all we have to do is take what is SAID in scripture, and now you say there is more to it than that. some sort of spiritual discernment must be applied, yes? so what happens when two people arrive at two different conclusions when both have used this spiritual discernment? catholics have used their spiritual discernment to include scripture that other denominations dismiss. doesn't sound like spiritual discernment is going to get us very far, as it seems unreliable.

lolz. well said, mrpirate. i noticed a certain someone hasn't replied to this. funny how often some make claims of something being 'illogical' and 'irrational' when they are in fact logical and rational. someone may want to study some more before throwing words around he doesn't know the meaning of.

Actually I did already, and this shows how much you know about logic.

 

[MrPirate]

Thanks for the additional info... I didn't know that "koites" was a feminine form.

I agree with your translation of the word... it makes more sense in the context in which it is used.

You are welcome. The feminine form adds a whole new layer of meaning to the word. At least to anyone willing to look.

 

[MrPirate]

You're not a professing Christian are you Wiccan Child? So what purpose does it serve for me to attempt to have a discussion about God's Word with you?

So you can stop with the strawman arguments.

Just because you can’t come up with an actual response to the points made by Wiccan_Child is no reason to be rude.

 

[imind]

Actually I did already, and this shows how much you know about logic.

does it ever! and its evidenced so clearly that you need not explain. lolz.

i have again reviewed each post since mrpirates responses, and you did not address them specifically. please, if i have overlooked your rejoinder, post it again.

 

[ReformedChapin]

does it ever! and its evidenced so clearly that you need not explain. lolz.

i have again reviewed each post since mrpirates responses, and you did not address them specifically. please, if i have overlooked your rejoinder, post it again.

Too bad you didn;t like em that's your problem