Can You At Least Admit that The Act is Wrong?

[ChaliceThunder]

In order for God to have joined you as one with another of the same sex, He would have to be a liar.

Is your God a liar?

If I were you, I would not run around calling God a liar.

For 23 years, you have lived in direct disobedience. You know Chalice, I would like nothing better than to be able to tell couples like you and your partner that there is nothing wrong with your union, not that you need me to say that. I thoroughly enjoy seeing two people in love and dedicated to each other and genuinely happy.

It's a pity you won't. But I will get over it.

But as a man of God and a teacher of His Gospel, I cannot espouse a view that runs counter to His Word.

You are having an internet conversation with another man of God and teacher of his Gospel. Many people of God disagree with your interpretation.

A much as I would like to say be in love with the person of your choosing, my Spirit is ruled by Jesus Christ.And without a doubt, I know that He ordained for a man to be joined with a woman and a woman to be joined with a man because His Word says so.

Your interpretation is your interpretation.

I, as a man of God, cannot assign anymore rightness to your relationship of 23 years than I can to the relationship of the heterosexual couple who has been living and sleeping together for 23 years.

It is not up to you to assign rightness or wrongness.
But, happily, we have come to the crux of your problem!

So as much as one part of me would love to sy Congratulations, the God-led part of me sees 23 years where God had something else planned for you that you missed out on.

Again, you are not the judge - but you are coming close to learning where your issues are.

I know you probably don't feel the same.

Correct.

But let me ask you, do you trust God?

I love and trust God with all my heart and soul and mind and strength.

Do you consider yourself a Christian?

Absolutely - I love and serve Jesus, and he gives me joy and peace.

ETA: I am going to do the courtesy of NOT questioning your trust and identity in God.

 

[Zaac]

I think the record of Jesus works and words is pretty firm... not much room for confusion there...

What does pretty firm mean? Either it's correct or it's not. And what's your reasoning for why the words in red are firm if other parts are subject to not being firm?

I follow Jesus' teachings, and from them, I believe I have a fairly firm idea of his message... its about loving one another and doing our best to be good to each other...

There's a blaring hole in what you believe. It's man-centric. You completely left Jesus out.

So all the confusion surrounding the Bible implies what, exactly?

It implies that a lot of folks are trying to make God's Word say what they want it to say rather than just dealing with what it says.

I mean seriously, have you not seen all the discourse that has taken place to display the committing of homosexual acts in a favorable light? I can twist Scripture and explanations of Scripture to say whatever I want.

But when people deal with what a verse actually SAYS, and they use what it actually says to understand what it actually says somewhere else, there is no confusion.

To get a correct understanding of God's Word, Christians have to deal with the text and what it SAYS not what we think it implies.

However Jesus teaching does not explicitly cover every possible scenario or situation one may find ones' self in...

Can you give me an example of a moral situation, an issue of right and wrong, that God's Word has not addressed?

God is ALL-KNOWING. There is simply nothing we can do that HE has not forseen and given us ample answer in His Word.

A lot of times, we just don't think the answer is adequate.

the best we can do is attempt to apply the SPIRIT of Christ's teachings to situations that his direct teaching does not cover.

Give me a moral situation that it does not cover.

But even (what you say is) God's word contradicts other bits of what is supposed to be God's word... I mean, according to your understaning, both "turn the other cheek" and "an eye for an eye" are God breathed, right? Well, kinda by definition, which ever one you follow in any given situation, you are rather necesarily disobeying the other, right?

Nope.

The Bible says 38"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' 39But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.

So, where does that leave us? Using our rational, God given brains to decide what is appropriate and most in line with Christ's teaching, and thats about the best we can doMatthew 5:38-39

There is no contradiction here. Just a misunderstanding about what the Scripture actually says. Christ is explaining that the worldy way is to respond to evil with evil. His way is to respond to that evil with love. Turn the other cheek.

Haven't you noticed that when you repay evil with love, the person who has come at you sideways just doesn't know how to respond? They want to understand what would lead you to still display lovefor them after they have slapped you side the head with a brick.

The best you can do is live in obedience to the Word given to you by an ALL-KNOWING God.

Would you use the Biblical definition to determine rape? Do you shave? Do you wear clothes of mixed fibre? do you think execution is suitable punishment for disobedient children? Are we saved by works, or is it acts? Is slavery acceptible to God? How about polygamy? What are your views on circumcision? Would you follow the Biblical directions for dealing with certain diseases or would you ask a doctor to treat you if you get sick?

If you like, I can explain these one by one if need be. But let me summarily deal with them. If you are a Christian, you will understand what I mean when I say Christ has completed the law.

The Old law is still relevant because it's God's Word. But your requirement to keep these laws was made complete by Christ.

The Ten Commandments didn't go away. Christ brought a New Law. The Bible says 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' Matthew 22:37

If you're keeping the Greatest Commandment, you're going to have the completed law of the OT covered.

There is a LOT in the Bible that I don't think many contemporary Christians follow blindly... and rightly so

Do not mistake cultural laws that have been made complete by the coming of Jesus Christ as binding in their old form if Jesus Christ has made the old complete.

There is no command given of God in the Old Testament that is not made complete by Christ.

Again, the laws didn't go away. Christ just came to show us just how easy it can be without trying to keep track of all those cultural laws.

 

[Zaac]

First off, it is indeed a silly argument.
I am gay by God's design.

It's a non-issue if you are gay by God's design just as it's a non-issue if you are straight by God's design.

God speaks to your ACTS. You CHOOSING to engage in acts that God says not to engage in has nothing to do with you being gay or straight.

Second - you DO have special rights as long as you are able to marry the person of your choice, and as long as I am paying taxes to subsidize YOUR lifestyle while mine is kept unequal.

You screaming this from the rooftops simply isn't going to make it true. I can't break the laws and marry a 10 year old. You can't break the laws and marry someone of the same sex.

You've got the same rights that I have. You have to operate within the confines of the law. So stop supposing your own special rights. Everyone else has to follow the law. Why should you be afforded an exemption to have special rights to break the law?

Third - I am one of God's people, and there are many, many, many others who disagree with you.

No man's agreement or disagreement means anything where God has spoken.

He is God ALONE. He doesn't need a show of hands to decide what is right.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Can you give me an example of a moral situation, an issue of right and wrong, that God's Word has not addressed?

God is ALL-KNOWING. There is simply nothing we can do that HE has not forseen and given us ample answer in His Word.

A lot of times, we just don't think the answer is adequate.

Sure, Jesus never explicitly explained how he feels about stem cell research, masturbation, homosexual marriage, polygamy, slavery, or inter religious relations...

Give me a moral situation that it does not cover.

When is it appropriate to stop medical intervention on a terminal patient?

If you're keeping the Greatest Commandment, you're going to have the completed law of the OT covered.

See... I work under Christ's commandments, sermon on the mount teachings... and I see no problem with homosexuality under them.

Do not mistake cultural laws that have been made complete by the coming of Jesus Christ as binding in their old form if Jesus Christ has made the old complete.

And so, OT anti homosexuality laws being cultural, are no longer enforced, right?

 

[Trying2BaFaithfulServant]

Compound words do not necessarily derive their meaning from the meaning of their component words.

To understand has noting to do with standing or having dangled above ones head.
Chairman is neither a man transformed into a chair or a chair sculpted to look like a person.

koitLs is in reference to a bed, not specifically carnal relations. Worse for koitLs is feminine (i know gnedered words are strange ot me too) …so therefore it is a female or woman’s bed the man is in. making the claim of it maning homoseexual even more unlikely.

even ignoring the gender of the bed the man is in it is equally plausible to claim that the two root words for arsenokoités come together to mean a man who stays in bed thus meaning Paul is condemning the lazy.

The only reliable way to define a word is to analyze its use. The fact that writers contemporary to Paul were also using this word (even though rarely) indicates that Paul did not just make the word up nor did he created this word from combining words from the Septuagint. However writers contemporary to Paul did not use arsenokoités to mean homosexual. In fact the translators of the bible didn’t make arsenokoités mane homosexual in its other appearance in the new testament. Writers contemporary to Paul were using arsenokoités to mean a man purchases sex from a women…that is a man who employs prostiutes. (and thanks to the gender of the bed we can say it is a female prostute being employed.)

And the final nail in the coffin of arsenokoités being twisted to mean homosexual comes from the basic fact that ancient Greek had several well known words that meant homosexual and or homosexual relations, if Paul had wanted to specifically condemn homosexuals he would have used these well known words not an obscure word meaning, in modern vernacular “a John”

Thanks for the additional info... I didn't know that "koites" was a feminine form.

I agree with your translation of the word... it makes more sense in the context in which it is used.

 

[Zaac]

If I were you, I would not run around calling God a liar.

I asked you if your god is a liar. The Bible says 2But since there is so much immorality, each man should have his own wife, and each woman her own husband. 1 Corinthians 7:2

No where in God's Word do you find any example of two-same sex people being joined in marriage covenant with God.

It's a pity you won't. But I will get over it.

I know you will. You have consistently shown that it is more important to you to be pleasing to yourself than to God.

You are having an internet conversation with another man of God and teacher of his Gospel. Many people of God disagree with your interpretation.

The Bible says 1But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping. 2 Peter 2:1-3

I stake my life on the Word that is Jesus Christ and what He says about the committing of homosexual acts. dealing with the text and what God's Word says, are you ready to stand in judgment and maintain that stance?

If you are the man of God you say you are, you're not going to let your eternal soul hinge upon what you think instead of what God says.

So either you are a man of God and still open to receive the truth of His Word, or you have become so self-centered that God has given you over to a reprobate mind.

There is no man of God who can stake his eternal salvation on something that runs counter to God's Word without being convicted by the Holy Spirit to see the error of the confusing web he would have to spin to make his way right over God's way.

Your interpretation is your interpretation.

I ain't interpreted anything. I've told ya what God's Word says. I don't play the whole interpretation game. I'll tell you what God says, and if you want to rest your eternal soul on somebody's interpretation...

It is not up to you to assign rightness or wrongness.
But, happily, we have come to the crux of your problem!

How do you come to the crux of my problem based upon something I said I DO NOT do?

Again, you are not the judge - but you are coming close to learning where your issues are.

Based upon what God's Word says, I can righteously judge your situation. You may not think so. But God's Word SAYS so.

I love and trust God with all my heart and soul and mind and strength.



Absolutely - I love and serve Jesus, and he gives me joy and peace.

ETA: I am going to do the courtesy of NOT questioning your trust and identity in God.

And I will once again do you the courtesy of letting God's absolute truth reveal the condition of your heart.

The Bible says 3We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. 4The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: 6Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did. 1 John 2:3-6

Give me something of God's Word that affirms your same-sex acts.

 

[Trying2BaFaithfulServant]

Based upon what God's Word says, I can righteously judge your situation. You may not think so. But God's Word SAYS so.

Can you give me a Scriptural reference for this, Zaac? I'm not arguing with you, it's just I keep thinking of Matthew 7:1.

Thanks.

 

[ChaliceThunder]

It's a non-issue if you are gay by God's design just as it's a non-issue if you are straight by God's design.

If it's a non-issue, why are you talking about it at all?

God speaks to your ACTS. You CHOOSING to engage in acts that God says not to engage in has nothing to do with you being gay or straight.

Which is why I do not engage in adultery. I am faithful to one man; the one God has joined to me.

You screaming this from the rooftops simply isn't going to make it true. I can't break the laws and marry a 10 year old. You can't break the laws and marry someone of the same sex.

I am not screaming.
And you had better prepare yourself.
Gay marriage is coming.

You've got the same rights that I have.

No, I don't. I wish I did, but it is an absolute fact that at the present moment, I do NOT have the same rights that you have.

You have to operate within the confines of the law.

I do. (except on the freeway... )

So stop supposing your own special rights.

So far, the only ones with special rights are the heterosexuals. But that will end soon enough.

Everyone else has to follow the law. Why should you be afforded an exemption to have special rights to break the law?

see above

No man's agreement or disagreement means anything where God has spoken.

He is God ALONE. He doesn't need a show of hands to decide what is right.

Then, please, with all due respect - put down your hand.

 

[Zaac]

Sure, Jesus never explicitly explained how he feels about stem cell research,

17 "You shall not murder. Deuteronomy 5:17

masturbation,

"For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. It teaches us to say "No" to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age." Titus 2:11-12

homosexual marriage, polygamy,

2But since there is so much immorality, each man should have his own wife, and each woman her own husband. 1 Cor. 7:2

slavery,

Never quite understood how folks jump from slavery as depicted in the Bible to the type of slavery practiced in the US.

or inter religious relations...

what does this mean?

When is it appropriate to stop medical intervention on a terminal patient?

If they are terminal, what are you intervening for?

See... I work under Christ's commandments, sermon on the mount teachings... and I see no problem with homosexuality under them.And so, OT anti homosexuality laws being cultural, are no longer enforced, right?

I haven't asked you about homosexuality. I asked about the committing of homosexual acts. There is a difference.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

17 "You shall not murder. Deuteronomy 5:17

You realise that stem cell research isn't murder, right?

 

[Zaac]

Can you give me a Scriptural reference for this, Zaac? I'm not arguing with you, it's just I keep thinking of Matthew 7:1
Thanks.

Absolutely. I teach on this one all the time in my "Most quoted out of context " classes.

Most folks stop with Matthew 7:1. But if you read the verses after, the Bible says 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

3"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye. Matthew 7:2-5

If you look at the verses afterwards, it completes what is being said. It's not a prohibition on judging, but on HOW TO judge.

rather than UNRIGHTEOUSLY judging your brother while you are doing the same thing, you are to FIRST remove the plank from your eye and THEN, meaning there is a process that God expects us to go through before we can pass judgment.

It's hypocritical judgment to tell someone to not do something if you're doing the same thing. You have to get the proverbial plank out of your eye first before you can RIGHTEOUSLY tell someone else not to do it.

Do not not to forget nor seek to avoid the fact that our Jesus commanded us to "judge righteous judgment."

He commended one, "Thou hast rightly judged." He asked others, "24Stop judging by mere appearances, and make a right judgment." John 7:24

In the Bible ,Paul wrote,15I speak to sensible people; judge for yourselves what I say. 1 Cor. 10:15

And in 1 Cor. 2:15 15The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:

You have to judge to make any decision. There are plenty of verses throughout God's Word, OT and NT, that show that we are to RIGHTEOUSLY judge, but not hypocritically judge.

 

[ChaliceThunder]

Give me something of God's Word that affirms your same-sex acts.

I have never given anyone here a clue about "MY same-sex acts."

 

[Zaac]

If it's a non-issue, why are you talking about it at all?

I didn't. As God's Word does, I spoke to the committing of homosexual acts and not to someone being gay.

Which is why I do not engage in adultery. I am faithful to one man; the one God has joined to me.

God ain't joined you in covenant with Him and someone of the same sex.

Your fornication outside of God's marriage covenant is the same as the fornication outside of marriage of a straight couple.

And as He has put forth in the OT and the NT what a marriage is, the only god to join with you in any type of covenant that involves disobedience to His Word would be a false god.

I am not screaming.
And you had better prepare yourself.
Gay marriage is coming.

And you better get ready to bow. Jesus is coming.

No, I don't. I wish I did, but it is an absolute fact that at the present moment, I do NOT have the same rights that you have.

I can't marry someone of the same sex either. So until you can show me that I can, we got the same rights.

Then, please, with all due respect - put down your hand.

With all due respect, go back and look at all the Scripture that I have QUOTED in this thread, and show me what you have given in support of God approving of you committing homosexual acts.

 

[Zaac]

I have never given anyone here a clue about "MY same-sex acts."

Then give me something of God's Word that affirms anybody's same-sex acts.

 

[ChaliceThunder]

Then give me something of God's Word that affirms anybody's same-sex acts.

I am not as interested in prying into people's bedrooms as you appear to be.

 

[Zaac]

I am not as interested in prying into people's bedrooms as you appear to be.

I didn't ask you to pry into anyone's bedroom. I asked you to pry into God's Word.

 

[Brennin]

A major point is that what the bible says is not clear.

In an alternate universe, perhaps, but not in this universe.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Then give me something of God's Word that affirms anybody's same-sex acts.

Because, what, a lack of condonation automatically means that it is condemned? Does the Bible specifically condone my electric fan? I don't think so. Thus, by your logic, God considers my electric fan to be an abomination!
I don't think so.

 

[ChaliceThunder]

I didn't ask you to pry into anyone's bedroom. I asked you to pry into God's Word.

You are trying to get at some supposed acts that are sexual.

End of the subject is: it's not your bidniss!

 

[Zaac]

Because, what, a lack of condonation automatically means that it is condemned? Does the Bible specifically condone my electric fan? I don't think so. Thus, by your logic, God considers my electric fan to be an abomination!
I don't think so.

You're not a professing Christian are you Wiccan Child? So what purpose does it serve for me to attempt to have a discussion about God's Word with you?

So you can stop with the strawman arguments.