Can we take Genesis Seriously

[Fatally.Yours]

Yes, yes you can.
But I will have zero respect for you if you do so.

 

[bklatinarab92]

@ who fatally?

 

[Wedjat]

Bklatinarab92, I'm finding it a bit difficult to sift through everything you've written but I will try my best, please forgive me if I omit anything you think important, as I may be cutting down some of your post for simplicities sake.

alright, well no matter how much proof is given in this tread it would be hard to get anywhere. if there is a personal creator, who would want to be accainted with you. would you care...

I am to understand in what you say here and directly afterward that you are asking that if such a creator being existed then we should be getting on his good side and to ask for proof is rude considering said being created everything, including by the transitive property, us.
My answer to that is that while the creation of the universe is certainly an impressive feat, who exactly pulled off that feat is still in a lot of question amongst the religious community when you consider all the different religious faiths that permeate throughout the world today. To ask that someone provide proof that the creator god that they are espousing to specifically is the one amongst all others who did is not I think all that unreasonable, and such a being, having knowledge of the entire universe, could at least be expected to understand my position. In the presence of a truly benevolent creator I have lived my life well and have nothing to hide or fear.
If however this being insists that I worship them without providing concrete evidence of itself, then damns me to torture for coming to what seems a rather logical conclusion based on my own personal experiences, especially given that though I enjoy my life, I did not ask for it and would prefer non-existence over eternal torture any day, that being who essentially facilitated my life only so that the majority of it could be spent in excruciating pain, in my opinion acts a tyrant and does not deserve to be worshiped.

Well Jesus claims that if you believe in him certain signs will follow you. for example...50 kids there that most of them dont really believe.

I will not try to explain away your experiences or deny them, but they are your expiriences, not mine, and given no confirmation of their legitimacy or details, understand why I am not able to accept them as exactly how things turned out. I do not know everything that happened, nor do I expect you to know every detail in that scenario that may or may not explain what happened. Second hand accounts of first hand experiences are only as reliable as the information that you remember, and I have found that memory can be a very fickle thing. If an omniscient divine creator who wished me to know of its existence was present, then it would know what needed to be done to convince me.

... because unless you invite God to your life, you'll deny him everytime he trys...

To be frank bklatinarab92, if God is omnipotent, then he's not trying hard enough.

and how do we know his image because the way Christ lived is the way we are all 'meant' to be. for example biologically speaking were meant to procreate male with female. not animals... well thats something God told us thousands of years ago...

Forgive me if I think your logic is a bit circular, but you are saying that we know Christ is God because Christ lives like God told us to live. Do you see here where your premise is the same as your conclusion?
Also I'm not sure where saying that because Christ didn't attempt to procreate with animals he therefore lives a godly life. Forgive any offense, but I think you are thinking faster than you can type.

Ive heard there are 5 knowable categorys by Hurbert Spencer i believe that there is- time, force, action, space, matter. read Genesis 1:1 In the beginning(time) God(force) created(action) the heavens(space) and the Earth(matter). That was long before hurburt. if he is the creator he will be accurate when it comes to science matters.

Scientific facts revealed retrospectively are of little use to anyone.

Also Prophecies are very accurate and old.

Nor are arguments from antiquity.

Ive got all the proof i needed when I read His word high and got instanstly sobered up and felt convicted...

This is where is started to get difficult understanding your syntax, so forgive me if I miss anything, but I think what you were trying to say was that without God you were immoral and influenced by some of the more unwholesome parts of society.Christianity, it seems, helped you to become a better person. To that I say great, I am glad to hear that you have made progress as a member of a productive society and improved relations with the people that live around you. I do need to note however, that while religion may have helped you greatly, it is not needed by everyone. I am perfectly content not believing in a higher power, in fact I can honestly say that my life has never felt fuller or my thoughts more clear. I handle myself well socially and I am happy in the knowledge that actually very few people dislike me. I have made mistakes and I will never be perfect, but I don't aspire to be, I only hope to live my life the best I can and pass on my knowledge and hopefully the better aspects of my personality to my children.
Further, arguing that because a belief brings comfort it is therefore true is just as fallacious as saying that because I am more comfortable in believing that someday I will win the lottery it is therefore true, even though its patent falseness can be found in the fact that I do not nor ever plan to play the lottery (and even if I did, the odds of winning are astronomically low).

see 'If we would write the bible we couldnt and if humans could right the bible we wouldn't' check out this article about the bible. nothing crazy but actually interesting Last Days Ministries : The Holy Bible: Wholly True

Please don't think I am dismissing the link out of hand, I have actually read it and I have a number of reasons for not finding it wholly convincing, but I do not have time to go over the entire article on this site. On a related note though, are you familiar with or have you read Gnostic texts? Gnosticism isn't concerned with the truth of the Bible, only that its stories and lessons are good, as such they have a number of texts that aren't included in the canonical Bible such as the gospels of Thomas and Judas (both of which are actually very interesting). The fact that these texts alone, written for one reason or another, even exist is proof enough that given something important that people believe in, people will be prompted to write about and even contribute to it. People are quite capable of writing the Bible and they have plenty of motivation, especially if they believed they were being divinely inspired. I think a good lesson to be learned from the Gnostic texts (and relating to the original topic of the thread since we are getting a bit off topic here) even if Genesis is false factually, there may still be important lessons contained in them and indeed the main purpose of writing it may have been to teach a lesson, a metaphorical truth rather than a literal truth.

 

[DarkLightA]

Note that Moses was given these books by God. If God has written it, why would you not believe in it?

God has proven science wrong many times. I've seen it happen myself. Why not believe that that is what has happened here?

 

[bklatinarab92]

ok sorry for my inconsistant text. I guess a big thing that i meant was that what happens with most people that debate or defend their fate (which usually claims to search for truth), end up omitting any reasonable truth in the oppisition. that goes for both sides, but if your willing to give chance and disorder the credit for all the intricate beauty of the universe, would it be possible that an ALMIGHTY CREATOR set these intricate laws of everything down. A big reason why these debates never end is because it ends up just being a defense/offense. Were so busy defending 'my faith' and attacking 'your faith' it gets no where.
God chose people to speak for his case for other peoples sake. the prophets are those people now there have been false prophets and true prophets, those who say something will happen and it does 100% are from God, because 'God' knows everything, so as the generations pass he chooses someone that will speak for him. this is throughout the history of the world. moses for example. well he wouldnt of told moses about chemistry as there was no need for that kind of proof. but now im not saying not to ask question Thomas was skeptic and refused to believe. So Christ proved it to him. He answered my doubting questions. He'll answer you but you have to seek him. if you dont seek him you cant find him, not that he doesnt want you to. Its not so much about proof that will change your mind cuz like you said 'your content without knowing him' you are fully convinced in your world view. examine your evidence every shred of it that you ever told anyone preaching your faith. but this time make your faith the variable and the evidence the constant. thorougly ponder on it with Faith being the variable <biblical God> and <evolution> Thats if you want know the truth no bias and be honest with your self are both possible, which one is more logical. just really ponder about those things if your interested I think theres a big difference in the meaning of life if it 'our'(self) view where incorrect. hope it works out for you, Jesus bless you wedjat, love you =]

 

[cRIO]

Note that Moses was given these books by God. If God has written it, why would you not believe in it?

How do you know?

God has proven science wrong many times. I've seen it happen myself. Why not believe that that is what has happened here?

Give me an example that you've seen. Preferable not healing.

 

[Wedjat]

bklatinarab92, I appreciate that you are asking me to reassess my worldview, but I came to where I am today through careful thought, not on a whim. Evolution is the most logical of the two options that you presented as it really does have mountains of evidence while Genesis has literally none that cannot also be applied to other options. I don't claim that the two are mutually exclusive though, as is being discussed in this thread, a metaphorical interpretation of Genesis is completely consistent with a Christian worldview.
Unfortunately your argument about prophets and false prophets simply holds no weight, there are "prophets" from multiple other religions, self-proclaimed or otherwise, who are "accurate" in their predictions. Whether this is coincidence or more, the fact of the matter is that no religion exclusively holds claim to "true" prophets.

 

[bklatinarab92]

alright but then dont say you want the creator to prove to you anything cause you dont. you only seek proof that evolution is true and honestly speaking as hard as you try to prove otherwise we all see God's invisible qualitys, eternal power, and divine nature, through everything that is made so men are without excuse. so tell me if natural selection is what brought us to be and that process eliminates the weaker species wouldnt cavemen be more around then a monkey! and where does dna come from? Isnt dna complex info thats similiar to a blueprint? We can see that in our observations of what we know that information is only a bi-product of intelligence. And although you rarely meet the architect of a building you know there was one because the complex design. a building couldnt be constructed by erosion (natural causes) but living organisms can? and whos to say that the world is millions of years old is that a presuppisition?

 

[cRIO]

alright but then dont say you want the creator to prove to you anything cause you dont. you only seek proof that evolution is true

I can't speak for Wedjat, but I would love to see proof of a creator.

we all see God's invisible qualitys, eternal power, and divine nature

Do we?

so tell me if natural selection is what brought us to be and that process eliminates the weaker species wouldnt cavemen be more around then a monkey!

Classic argument against evolution, usually from desperation. They occupied different niches. And cavemen don't exist anymore, at least not in the sense you are talking about.

and where does dna come from? Isnt dna complex info thats similiar to a blueprint?

Has nothing to do with evolution; yes&#8230;.

We can see that in our observations of what we know that information is only a bi-product of intelligence.

I disagree.

And although you rarely meet the architect of a building you know there was one because the complex design.

There are structures in nature that look like they have been constructed, but haven't (just look at the face on Mars).

a building couldnt be constructed by erosion (natural causes) but living organisms can?

It could be.

and whos to say that the world is millions of years old is that a presuppisition?

Who's to say it's not?

 

[bklatinarab92]

His qualiltys yes sir we do, you can deny that fact but to deny God is similiar to deny a father you never met although you cant see him or smell him his qualitys are in your very cells, call me illogical its okay for God in His wisdom chose that the world would not know Him through its wisdom, your acts of lawlessness do have a penalty and only Christ can take the place of that punishment. Me saying im a christian is saying im desperate i have committed lawlessness and im desperate for forgiveness and love. my strength is in The Almighty alone, you dont have proof for evolution there is none. some hints..? depends on your presuppisitions. The fact that theres evil proves theres good, theres no good in natural selection or evolution how does logic come into the picture with natural selection you know so much yet have many unanswered questions and you justify yourself with empty arguments. Theres no weight with evolution, do the math. look at your facts they dont add up. sorry if i seem ignorant but i have found no logical, or crediability to even say that makes sense. Whats love? Whats grief? Love is not something that would increase our chances for survival. my love for you would put you over me! that isnt very darwinist, and natural selection is very selfish according to that logic i should be as an animal and doing my best to pass my seed as often as i can and if someone is hungry to be greedy!!! thats not Humane! its not a survival method! but were triving more then other species. There are people who have that mind set, i.e. hitler but that didnt do anything but destruction. why is there need for law if were just in a fight for survival. and where is the millions of years of transitional bones? Folly, if you are human and you love then you are rebeling against the Natural selection process. Christ has risen! he has conquered the grave, the keys of death and hell are in his hands whether you like that or not He will redeem those who trust in him, He will not let me perish, and he desires that all men be saved! He is my rock and i will not be overtaken by any wind(teaching) contrary to the truth because quite frankly He is the Truth. I rest my case, the Judge will judge accordingly to your deeds, ive spoken up just as you have spoken up. Thats not to say i dont love you guys tho, on the contrary I love you guys alot i have no desire to prove my self correct a wise man would not spend time argueing with someone that theres gravity if the person desires to hear their own truth, nor do i but rather my hope is that God may have mercy on your souls and save you from your own hands. With much Love in Christ, Vincent Cruz

 

[Fatally.Yours]

@ who fatally?

Anyone who takes Genesis literally.

 

[bklatinarab92]

why is that?

 

[Fatally.Yours]

Because you're ignoring blatant scientific evidence such as carbon dating, fossils etc.

 

[bklatinarab92]

please tell me how the carbon dating process works?

 

[Fatally.Yours]

Not 100% sure, I'm not a scientist. It's something to do with testing the atoms in a piece of rock to test how old it is. I know it's pretty accurate.

 

[bklatinarab92]

look into it and see how accurate it is.

 

[Fatally.Yours]

Carbon dating is accurate up to 60,000 years, apparently, but they can test using other methods. Seeing as according to Genesis, the world is about 6,000 years old, I don't think it can be taken literally.

 

[Wedjat]

@ carbon dating, read the thread from the beginning. I know it's a lot but there is a bunch of information that I would rather not have to cover again.

 

[Wedjat]

alright but then dont say you want the creator to prove to you anything cause you dont.

If it is a matter of as much gravity as the Christian doctrine assigns it then yes, I very much do.

you only seek proof that evolution is true and honestly speaking as hard as you try to prove otherwise we all see God's invisible qualitys, eternal power, and divine nature, through everything that is made so men are without excuse.

No clearly we don't otherwise we wouldn't be having this conversation. I hardly need to scramble for evidence regarding evolution, it comes in boatloads. "Eternal power" and "divine nature" are not quantifiable things, they are not detectable, and they are applicable to more things than your specific god. Citing subjective observations (beauty of nature etc.) as empirical evidence of a specific divine being simply does not follow.

so tell me if natural selection is what brought us to be and that process eliminates the weaker species wouldnt cavemen be more around then a monkey!

If the USA came from Britain, then why is Britain still around?

and where does dna come from? Isnt dna complex info thats similiar to a blueprint?

Please go back and read the thread, this is addressed many times.

We can see that in our observations of what we know that information is only a bi-product of intelligence. And although you rarely meet the architect of a building you know there was one because the complex design. a building couldnt be constructed by erosion (natural causes) but living organisms can?

I don't know where you get the idea that organisms could be constructed by erosion. If that is what you think evolution is then you have been sadly misinformed. There are plenty of links on this thread providing information that answers your questions. Forgive me if it seems like I'm being short or off handed with you, but I don't really like to repeat myself.

and whos to say that the world is millions of years old is that a presuppisition?

Scientists who know a good deal more about the way the world works than you or I. Suffice to say that there are many methods of dating the world past 6,000 years and all of them have been proven accurate. It is not a presupposition, it is a conclusion from evidence. In fact, if there wasn't a book saying so, no one would come to the conclusion that the earth was created 6,000 years ago along with every animal and two adult human beings in a perfect garden until they disobeyed the word of God and ate fruit from the tree of knowledge thus dooming the world to sin and ruin. Old earth science comes from observable facts in nature, it is the new earth biblical view that arises from presuppositions.

 

[cRIO]

His qualiltys yes sir we do

Perhaps I should have clarified: How do we see them? It might be obvious to you, but not to me.

you can deny that fact but to deny God is similiar to deny a father you never met although you cant see him or smell him his qualitys are in your very cells

Not quite. There are many fathers and plenty of examples; there is only one God (or so you say).

you dont have proof for evolution there is none.

Yes I do (vestigial structures, fossils, microevolution…). I could go on and on

The fact that theres evil proves theres good

Ummm, how so?

Now bear with me here, I'm trying to separate your sentences. A bit of punctuation might be nice next time.

how does logic come into the picture with natural selection

Logical deduction.

you know so much yet have many unanswered questions and you justify yourself with empty arguments

So do you, unless you claim to know God. And again, so do you.

Theres no weight with evolution, do the math. look at your facts they dont add up.

Evolution math? Reptile + feathers = dinosaur? That adds up perfectly!

sorry if i seem ignorant but i have found no logical, or crediability to even say that makes sense.

As you say about God, keep looking. It's there.

Love is not something that would increase our chances for survival.

Yes it is. Parents that love each other are more likely to stay together and raise a child. Parents that raise a child together raise the chance that the child survives past childhood.

i should be as an animal and doing my best to pass my seed as often as i can and if someone is hungry to be greedy!!!

Yep. Well, if someone is hungry, its evolutionarily better to help them, as they survive and could one day help you. You see? Charity from evolution!

thats not Humane! its not a survival method!

See above.

There are people who have that mind set, i.e. hitler but that didnt do anything but destruction.

Why does every religious debate inevitably tend towards Hitler?!

why is there need for law if were just in a fight for survival.

Law helps survival. Civilization in general does. That's why humans are so successful.

and where is the millions of years of transitional bones?

Fossils are there. Many haven't been found (yet) because the precess that creates them is very slow and only works in very special circumstances.

Folly, if you are human and you love then you are rebeling against the Natural selection process.

Nope.

Christ has risen!

Really.

a wise man would not spend time argueing with someone that theres gravity if the person desires to hear their own truth

Gravity is really just the bending of space-time. A warp caused by mass and/or energy. Things are not always as they seem.