Can we take Genesis Seriously

[bklatinarab92]

yep, and we wont get anywhere, science screams design and the God of the bible holds that claim. If the creator would write a book would it be scientifically incorrect? no it would be accurate, so when these other scriptures claim to be divinely inspired but man made they would be incorrect seeing as new discoverys are alwas being found. for example the creator of everything wouldnt say earthquakes happen because elephants rub there heads on the floor. All other scripture has scientific inaccuracys the bible is not one of them Hes clearly said "I AM your God" and no ones proven him wrong, not a shred of fallacy in his word, carbon dating needs to be assumed on how much c14 was in the organism at the time. Some say faith is for fools, but you require faith in things unseen you keep saying well i have a truck load of evidence, this will never be proven, guarenteed it will alwas be based on faith. Now if there is no standard for morals, whos to say whats right and wrong? most of society believe premarital sex is okay! look at those results, most of society believes its okay to be in a same sex relationship, (that doesnt work with natural selection) What if someone from another country believed from the society that rape was okay? would that mean its fine to rape your loved ones seeing as it increases the chance of his seed passing through the generations? or if you go to his society would it be okay for them to rape loved ones because it was established by their society? No one would like it, God placed these parameters in place all of them, he claims it morals, logic, Love. what if the equivlant for love in another country is rape? would that make them both right? 40 different authors of different backgrounds and cultures all from different times, I'm sure even the worlds greatest human author and smartest couldnt compose a book with that perameters and be morally, scientifically, and truthfully as consistant as the bible is. Its also historically correct, really people, really events. People take alot of time to get out of the fact there is a creator and the answer alot of times is 'well its theoretically possible that spontaneous combustion will occur', okay sure but where does order come from all this chaos, 'well ....' and there will alwas be the what if. but i can say the same thing for gravity, 'well what if our conversation where just an illusion its been shown in studys that memory isnt reliable' <-- its not a great example, but you really dont want proof, you rather live life enjoying it how you deem it fit, with no body to tell you otherwise. So be it, but if your interested to meet God you can ask anyone of these christians. xD

 

[bklatinarab92]

As for Carbon dating heres an excerpt from an article on answersfromgenesis.org .

Carbon-14 (14C) is by far the most familiar radioisotope dating method. There is a common misconception that 14C supports an ancient age for the earth. This is not the case, however, because 14C has a short half-life compared with other dating isotopes&#8212;&#8220;just&#8221; 5,730 years. Carbon-14 is limited to dating objects thousands of years old, but not millions or billions of years. For samples that are truly ancient, any initial 14C content should have completely decayed away.
And here arises a major challenge to a long timescale: in recent years, carbon-14 atoms have been found in samples of rocks, fossils, coal, and oil, which are thought to be very old. The RATE research team explored this anomaly with new measurements of 14C in ten distinct coal samples. These coals are traditionally dated at 34&#8211;311 million years old. With utmost care to avoid contamination, traces of carbon-14 were found in all ten samples. The RATE team next sought a more extreme challenge to age assumptions. Twelve diamond samples were obtained and prepared for 14C analysis. Such measurements had not been previously reported because diamonds are assumed to be at least a billion years old and therefore entirely free of 14C. Similar to the coal results, however, carbon-14 atoms were found in every diamond tested. The conclusion is clear: carbon-14 atoms in coal, diamonds, and a host of other materials provide strong evidence for a limited earth age of just thousands of years. The pervasive presence of carbon-14 in earth materials supports biblical creation.

The assumption for this method is that there was as much carbon 14 in the air back then and now. which isnt true there are many aspects that change that level of c14

 

[cRIO]

science screams design

Please. Don't say things just because they sound good. Get your facts straight.

If the creator would write a book would it be scientifically incorrect? no it would be accurate, so when these other scriptures claim to be divinely inspired but man made they would be incorrect seeing as new discoverys are alwas being found. for example the creator of everything wouldnt say earthquakes happen because elephants rub there heads on the floor.

I agree! Big if, of course.

All other scripture has scientific inaccuracys the bible is not one of them Hes clearly said "I AM your God" and no ones proven him wrong, not a shred of fallacy in his word

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!! That's the funniest thing I've heard all day! I needed that. (The Earth is made of water 2 Peter 3:5; The Earth is immobile 1 Chron. 16:30; The Moon is a light source Gen 1:16; And look, unicorns! Job 39:9&#8211;12)

Oh, and Pi is 3 (I Kings 7:23)

Some say faith is for fools, but you require faith in things unseen you keep saying well i have a truck load of evidence, this will never be proven, guarenteed it will alwas be based on faith.

Say what? Evidence has to be taken on faith? Why?

Now if there is no standard for morals, whos to say whats right and wrong? most of society believe premarital sex is okay!

Us!; Good for them.

look at those results, most of society believes its okay to be in a same sex relationship, (that doesnt work with natural selection)

What do you mean? Homosexuality is not a trait passed down generation to generation (obviously, otherwise how could straight parents have gay kids?). Before you start making outrageous claims about science, learn it.

What if someone from another country believed from the society that rape was okay? would that mean its fine to rape your loved ones seeing as it increases the chance of his seed passing through the generations?

What does this have to do with anything? Of course not, in our society. Apparently it would be in his. (BTW, in the Bible, rape is okay it seems: Judges 21:10-24)

or if you go to his society would it be okay for them to rape loved ones because it was established by their society?

Apparently.

God placed these parameters in place all of them, he claims it morals, logic, Love.

So he is logical? That's news. Does that mean we can know him?

what if the equivlant for love in another country is rape?

Can't be. Kinda goes against the definition of "love."

40 different authors of different backgrounds and cultures all from different times, I'm sure even the worlds greatest human author and smartest couldnt compose a book with that perameters and be morally, scientifically, and truthfully as consistant as the bible is

I can: 1 + 1 = 3. Just as consistent as the Bible.

Its also historically correct, really people, really events.

*Clear throat in an extremely annoying, loud, and disbelieving manner*

People take alot of time to get out of the fact there is a creator and the answer alot of times is 'well its theoretically possible that spontaneous combustion will occur'

Never heard that one. Especially in relation to a creator. Conversely, I could say you are ignoring the facts (which I respectfully believe you are, see above).

okay sure but where does order come from all this chaos

2nd Law of Thermodynamics. Look it up.

'well ....'

Is this what your argument is? Or just a straw man?

but i can say the same thing for gravity, 'well what if our conversation where just an illusion its been shown in studys that memory isnt reliable'

What does that have to do with gravity? And so what if it is? It's the best we have.

its not a great example, but you really dont want proof, you rather live life enjoying it how you deem it fit, with no body to tell you otherwise.

No, it's not. And yes, I would like proof, but you so kindly decline to provide it when I ask. I'll ask again: do you have proof? I mean, actual proof, not just "It must be so."

 

[Wedjat]

The assumption for this method is that there was as much carbon 14 in the air back then and now. which isnt true there are many aspects that change that level of c14

As has already been addressed if you had read the thread, scientists are well aware of this fact and actually include it in your calculations, you aren't throwing anyone a curve ball here.

 

[Wedjat]

yep, and we wont get anywhere,

Of course we won't if you just keep contradicting everything we say with nuh-uh's. In normal debate/discussion one would address the points brought up against the position that they are holding. I'm sorry if I seem testy, but quite honestly I've been playing this game a lot longer than you have and the arguments you are bringing up are really old and tired. I am more than willing to teach you about the theory of evolution, even if you don't believe it, it could at least help to know what the real theory is about, because you really are displaying a profound lack of understanding when it comes to the theory of evolution.

science screams design and the God of the bible holds that claim. If the creator would write a book would it be scientifically incorrect? no it would be accurate, so when these other scriptures claim to be divinely inspired but man made they would be incorrect seeing as new discoverys are alwas being found. for example the creator of everything wouldnt say earthquakes happen because elephants rub there heads on the floor.

Or say that bats are birds, rabbits chew cud, or that the value of pi is 3... whoops

All other scripture has scientific inaccuracys the bible is not one of them

Have you read other religious texts? The Q'aran, The Hadith, The Bhagavad Gita, the Torah, the Gnostic texts? Are you really informed about that or are you just saying it out of hand?

Hes clearly said "I AM your God" and no ones proven him wrong, not a shred of fallacy in his word

It's rather difficult to prove a negative, for example, prove that I can't fly undaided, but only when the earth aligns with Eris on the spring equinox. The fact of the matter is that that is an unfalsifiable idea because even if that rare condition were to occur, I could always just refuse to fly. In the scientific world, unfalsifiable ideas are generally considered useless and thrown out. If God refuses to provide quantifiable positive proof of his existence, then he puts himself in a position in which the idea of him becomes unfalsifiable.

, carbon dating needs to be assumed on how much c14 was in the organism at the time.

Which is surprisingly consistent and has been cross checked and proven with dates of objects with known ages and dendrochronology, again, read the thread.

Some say faith is for fools, but you require faith in things unseen you keep saying well i have a truck load of evidence, this will never be proven, guarenteed it will alwas be based on faith.

I thought faith was a good thing in your religion? If you are making a point against my position by comparing it to your position, what does that say about your position? There is evidence in the fossil record, taxonomy, embryology, and genetics. There are even observed cases of speciation. How much evidence does one need? What would you require to believe that evolution were true?

Now if there is no standard for morals, whos to say whats right and wrong? most of society believe premarital sex is okay! look at those results, most of society believes its okay to be in a same sex relationship, (that doesnt work with natural selection)

Actually works fine given that though some slight recessive genetic permutations play a role (enough so that genetic drift could easily play a role) most of it comes from developmental differences in the growth of the fetus.

Ok, I'm pressed on time so I'll address the rest of your post later.

 

[Wedjat]

What if someone from another country believed from the society that rape was okay? would that mean its fine to rape your loved ones seeing as it increases the chance of his seed passing through the generations? or if you go to his society would it be okay for them to rape loved ones because it was established by their society? No one would like it, God placed these parameters in place all of them, he claims it morals, logic, Love. what if the equivlant for love in another country is rape? would that make them both right?

You mean like the society where if you raped a girl you just had to pay fifty silver pieces to her father and you could have her as your wife because she was ruined property to anyone else? What society was that again? Seriously, have you read the OT?

People take alot of time to get out of the fact there is a creator and the answer alot of times is 'well its theoretically possible that spontaneous combustion will occur', okay sure but where does order come from all this chaos, 'well ....' and there will alwas be the what if.

If something is not only possible, but in all probability likely given the conditions available, then why add God into the equation? I am simply applying Occam's razor where you are not.

but i can say the same thing for gravity, 'well what if our conversation where just an illusion its been shown in studys that memory isnt reliable'

How does that have anything to do with gravity?

<-- its not a great example, but you really dont want proof, you rather live life enjoying it how you deem it fit, with no body to tell you otherwise.

If I didn't want my position to be challenged and for people to tell me otherwise, why in the world would I come on to this site? I'm sorry, but the fact that we are having this conversation sort of defeats your argument.

Also I did omit part of your post dealing with the accuracy of the Bible because I already addressed that point and you hadn't offered a rebuttal.

 

[Wedjat]

Unfortunately this is the last time I will be able to post on this thread. Tomorrow is my birthday so I'll be officially kicked out of the teens area. If anyone would like to continue a conversation with me, ask questions, or just talk, please feel free to private message me. I am quite well versed in biology, so any questions that arise in this thread that anyone wants to press to me I would be more than willing to answer.

See you guys, it's been fun.

 

[Fatally.Yours]

Happy birthday for tomorrow!

 

[bklatinarab92]

Foolishness, Yes am i genius no, but i couldnt put my faith in a belief that is just as unprovable as theism, not after what i have expirenced, one way or another in the beginning was super natural whether it be an explosion, or God, I have my truckload of proof, what do i need to believe in evolution, well if Jesus wasnt real i think id have motive to not believe in him.

 

[cRIO]

I can't tell: Is this supposed to be sarcasm, ridicule, or just ignorance? I suspect the latter.

 

[bklatinarab92]

Ignorance to what?

 

[cRIO]

Specifically, evolution. More broadly, all the arguments that have been made so far in this thread.

 

[Fatally.Yours]

Foolishness, Yes am i genius no, but i couldnt put my faith in a belief that is just as unprovable as theism, not after what i have expirenced, one way or another in the beginning was super natural whether it be an explosion, or God, I have my truckload of proof, what do i need to believe in evolution, well if Jesus wasnt real i think id have motive to not believe in him.

 

[bklatinarab92]

Ignorance to what? Ridicule, i wouldnt sideline it even though your mockery to my belief sure made me think of some ridiculous things on your part i will not impart those crueltys to you seeing as humility is what is helpful and scoffing is not. Sarcasm, not really I'm well aware of how foolish i sound. Were i stand on my belief is not dependant on logic or proof although both are well wooven in, the ultimate factor that sets the stage for my world view is a personal relationship with God, because of Christ, a philospher can question you and say are you sure your really there 0.o or even if he's really there, but at the end of the day you know its hogwash, you can throw winds of doubt at me, but my rock is Christ i stand firm upon him, i Love Him! He loves me and you, I only wish you could share in the peace, joy, and love that come from Him. Not everything is explainable, and i know it sounds like a big joke and even crazy talk. But His love changed me from the worst kid, to someone who can help build people up instead of destroy. So i still hold to my belief sorry if that seems funny but we all cry out to the Lord when the stuff hit the fan and when its all good we cant give him credit. He gives and takes and i've come to peace that He will alwas be good. Hope i didnt blurt out alot of nothing, i have that tendency. God bless you guys and may love and grace be abundant in yall lives

 

[cRIO]

Ignorance to what?

I just said.

your mockery to my belief sure made me think of some ridiculous things on your part

I am not mocking your beliefs, at least not those about God. I am mocking your beliefs about me (and those who don't believe in God).

I'm well aware of how foolish i sound.

Were i stand on my belief is not dependant on logic or proof although both are well wooven in

Ummm, not really. Read through this thread again.

Not everything is explainable

Then don't talk about proof if it can't be explained.

we all cry out to the Lord when the stuff hit the fan

??? Can you please explain this?

 

[Fatally.Yours]

Ignorance to what? Ridicule, i wouldnt sideline it even though your mockery to my belief sure made me think of some ridiculous things on your part i will not impart those crueltys to you seeing as humility is what is helpful and scoffing is not. Sarcasm, not really I'm well aware of how foolish i sound. Were i stand on my belief is not dependant on logic or proof although both are well wooven in, the ultimate factor that sets the stage for my world view is a personal relationship with God, because of Christ, a philospher can question you and say are you sure your really there 0.o or even if he's really there, but at the end of the day you know its hogwash, you can throw winds of doubt at me, but my rock is Christ i stand firm upon him, i Love Him! He loves me and you, I only wish you could share in the peace, joy, and love that come from Him. Not everything is explainable, and i know it sounds like a big joke and even crazy talk. But His love changed me from the worst kid, to someone who can help build people up instead of destroy. So i still hold to my belief sorry if that seems funny but we all cry out to the Lord when the stuff hit the fan and when its all good we cant give him credit. He gives and takes and i've come to peace that He will alwas be good. Hope i didnt blurt out alot of nothing, i have that tendency. God bless you guys and may love and grace be abundant in yall lives

Can you ask Jesus to help you spell and punctuate properly?
Petty I know, but bad English makes me sad.

 

[Korashk]

The theory of evolution is one of, if not the, most sound theories in existence. It has been OBSERVED for gosh sakes. We have SEEN IT HAPPEN. Anyone who doesn't accept evolution is ignorant at best, intellectually dishonest for the sake of proliferating their own dogmatic beliefs at worst.

 

[bklatinarab92]

Um, sorry for my puncuation errors, and spelling errors, english was never a strong point as for ignorance i could say the same for you. Micro-evolution, yes very sound. Macro-evolution is very not observable even if you look at fossils there is alot of gaps in the theory, show me observation of life from non-life? Show me observations of something coming from nothing? As for Jesus helping me, He's helped a whole alot more then science has, you want to know how I'd love to tell you. Mutations are not observed to add information! You guys seem very sophisticated and very intimidating coming from the opposing side! But you have not observed any parts of your theorys! Me? I've observed many conclusive parts to my truth, so scoff if you'd like but please dont pity me rather be glad there is salvation my friends, for every lawless deed you have committed! Ahh, as bad as this seems im actually very much as peace that the King can not be de-throned. As for my last statement, every body has had a moment when they didnt know what to do, and then who did they cry out too? Who do you blame at that moment? Well thats between you and him, I'm not a great writer nor do i wish to be! But I love people and I mean the non natural selection type of love =] the one where you put others before yourself, rejoice in the Lord alwas, praise the Lord! He's so amazing His works are graceful, His deeds are loving! Jesus is Lord over all and we will all see this wonderful truth, i just pray you all may have grace! I would love to share all my wonderful observations! You want to know if God loves you read the plan he had for you before you were born, starts at genesis ends at revalations! 40 different guys talking about Jesus some before his birth, some after his ressurection! Mind you these men suffered death from skeptics and unbeleivers. I wouldn't die for my fiction story, but i will die for the truth.

The theory of evolution is one of, if not the, most sound theories in existence. It has been OBSERVED for gosh sakes. We have SEEN IT HAPPEN. Anyone who doesn't accept evolution is ignorant at best, intellectually dishonest for the sake of proliferating their own dogmatic beliefs at worst.

I have to lol at that, not so much in mockery rather, in love. Anyone who doesnt accept it? Are you kidding me? Please dont go there, that was a very ignorant statement, for someone who hasnt observed any of there claims. Bashing my belief isnt the way to submission for me friends! You guys are amazing!! cant you guys see that! why devalue yourself to a mere concept of what ifs, you wanna talk logic where does an emotion come from a singled cell organism? If we are the most "evolved" organisms the earth has, then i feel bad for the single-celled great,great,great,.... etc ancestor of us. Would anyone survive without love, could you be sane without it, theres no God theres no love just a chemical response to chance.. I dont know what to say.. I only desire you can expirence and observe the love Jesus Christ has for you, then you can see with eyes open and not closed. Until then we wont ever meet on 'neutral' ground.

 

[cRIO]

Micro-evolution, yes very sound.

At least we agree on something.

Macro-evolution is very not observable even if you look at fossils there is alot of gaps in the theory

Yeah, every fossil bridge just adds one more gap right? (/sarcasm)

show me observation of life from non-life? Show me observations of something coming from nothing?

Back to what I said about you being ignorant of the Theory of Evolution. Contrary to what many creationist say, the ToE states nothing about abiogenesis. And why is life from non-life something from nothing?

Mutations are not observed to add information!

Yes they are. YouTube - Evolution IS a Blind Watchmaker
This is very interesting simulation of clocks and evolution. I suggest you watch the whole thing before you try to debunk it. (That is not the only example, by the way).

But you have not observed any parts of your theorys!

I have not observed any parts of your ideas either.

As for my last statement, every body has had a moment when they didnt know what to do, and then who did they cry out too? Who do you blame at that moment?

Everyone has those moments, but I don't cry out to or at God.

the one where you put others before yourself

Charity: it is beneficial (evolutionarily) to help others, as they may one day help you when you are in need.

You want to know if God loves you read the plan he had for you before you were born, starts at genesis ends at revalations!

Or starting at The Opening and ending at Mankind (the Quran)? No one has given me a good answer to the question "why Christianity?"

40 different guys talking about Jesus some before his birth, some after his ressurection!

Yes, and some over a century after.

Bashing my belief isnt the way to submission for me friends!

Yes, it was a bit harsh. Maybe.

why devalue yourself to a mere concept of what ifs

As we have said before, not "what ifs."

you wanna talk logic where does an emotion come from a singled cell organism?

Single celled organisms don't have emotions, probably. However, we are not single celled organisms.

If we are the most "evolved" organisms the earth has, then i feel bad for the single-celled great,great,great,.... etc ancestor of us.

Are we? And why?

Would anyone survive without love, could you be sane without it, theres no God theres no love just a chemical response to chance

You can't say there's no love and then say it's a chemical response. Choose one. Love or chemicals. And so what if it is? Does it decrease the feeling? Not for me, and, I assume, most unbelievers.

 

[Korashk]

as for ignorance i could say the same for you.

Not legitimately.

Micro-evolution, yes very sound. Macro-evolution is very not observable

If microevolution happens then so does macroevolution. They're the same exact thing.

even if you look at fossils there is alot of gaps in the theory,

Examples?

show me observation of life from non-life?Show me observations of something coming from nothing?

Evolution has nothing to do with the origin of life.

But you have not observed any parts of your theorys!

Except, we have.

But I love people and I mean the non natural selection type of love =] the one where you put others before yourself,

You don't need to be a Christian to do that.

You want to know if God loves you read the plan he had for you before you were born, starts at genesis ends at revalations!

I have, many times.

Anyone who doesnt accept it? Are you kidding me? Please dont go there, that was a very ignorant statement, for someone who hasnt observed any of there claims.

Again, I HAVE observed the claims, as have billions of other people; albeit secondhandly . Here's some more evidence outlined for you.

Bashing my belief isnt the way to submission for me friends!

I'm not saying that your entire belief system is wrong, even though I think it is, but in this specific instance it is wrong. One can not legitimately take the creation story literally. It is demonstrably false.

You guys are amazing!! cant you guys see that! why devalue yourself to a mere concept of what ifs,

Why does evolution devalue life? It is not a concept of "what ifs."

you wanna talk logic where does an emotion come from a singled cell organism?

That one-celled organism evolved over time in to a two celled organism, that two celled organism evolved into a three celled organism, etc. Eventually it evolved enough to have lower level brain functions and that's where emotion comes from.

If we are the most "evolved" organisms the earth has, then i feel bad for the single-celled great,great,great,.... etc ancestor of us.

I don't know that we're the most evolved, but we certainly the most advanced. Why would you feel bad for the single celled organisms?

Would anyone survive without love, could you be sane without it, theres no God theres no love just a chemical response to chance.

Well...that's what love is. A series of chemical responses in the brain. That's what all emotions are. It doesn't devalue them as you seem to be claiming.