Can we really rule out purgatory? (2)

[sunlover1]

This thread was split automatically after 1000 replies and this thread has been automatically created.
The old thread automatically closed is here: "Can we really rule out purgatory?"

 

[bbbbbbb]

Let me be the first here to reiterate my answer - Yes, we can, indeed, rule out Purgatory. After 1,000 posts on the topic it is evident to myself that Catholics hold an extremely broad understanding of the doctrine ranging from the traditional view of a hell-like place of torment where the Catholic undergoes punishment for his temporal sins (as the Catholic Catechism clearly states) to a brief episode no more uncomfortable than a refreshing shower (which is not stated in the Catechism).

 

[Rhamiel]

Let me be the first here to reiterate my answer - Yes, we can, indeed, rule out Purgatory. After 1,000 posts on the topic it is evident to myself that Catholics hold an extremely broad understanding of the doctrine ranging from the traditional view of a hell-like place of torment where the Catholic undergoes punishment for his temporal sins (as the Catholic Catechism clearly states) to a brief episode no more uncomfortable than a refreshing shower (which is not stated in the Catechism).

do you want to post where the quotes from the Catechism that clearly show that Purgatory is hell-like?

 

[ebia]

Depends what one means by purgatory. A Dante style concept really cannot fit with the Christian hope at all, but the kind of thing +Benedict XVI describes - a burning away of all that is wrong with us as we come into final contact with the full glory of God really shouldn't be problematic.

 

[Rhamiel]

Depends what one means by purgatory. A Dante style concept really cannot fit with the Christian hope at all, but the kind of thing +Benedict XVI describes - a burning away of all that is wrong with us as we come into final contact with the full glory of God really shouldn't be problematic.

um, the two sound the same, have you read Dante's Purgatorio?
for starters it is not literal but poetic, the man was a poet not a mystic after all
it is just as much about art as it is about the afterlife, really, one of the themes is art itself (Inferno had politics as a theme)
with Dante we see the proud with heavy stones on their backs making them bend low, the slothful running a marathon
how ever you twisted yourself up in life is now being untwisted by grace
It has been years, but i think part of the poem even states that people could only move durring the day and froze still at night, as a symbol that we only move closer to God through His grace
but anyway, it is a poem and not ment to be a mystical vision, just a fun story

 

[Eucharisted]

The Doctrine of Purgatory

Compendium of the Catechism of the Catholic Church

194. What is the meaning of the “communion of saints”?
946-953
960
This expression indicates first of all the common sharing of all the members of the Church in holy things (sancta): the faith, the sacraments, especially the Eucharist, the charisms, and the other spiritual gifts. At the root of this communion is love which “does not seek its own interests” (1 Corinthians 13:5) but leads the faithful to “hold everything in common” (Acts 4:32), even to put one’s own material goods at the service of the most poor.


195. What else does “the communion of saints” mean?
954-959
961-962
This expression also refers to the communion between holy persons (sancti); that is, between those who by grace are united to the dead and risen Christ. Some are pilgrims on the earth; others, having passed from this life, are undergoing purification and are helped also by our prayers. Others already enjoy the glory of God and intercede for us. All of these together form in Christ one family, the Church, to the praise and glory of the Trinity.


210. What is purgatory?
1030-1031
1054
Purgatory is the state of those who die in God’s friendship, assured of their eternal salvation, but who still have need of purification to enter into the happiness of heaven.



211. How can we help the souls being purified in purgatory?
1032
Because of the communion of saints, the faithful who are still pilgrims on earth are able to help the souls in purgatory by offering prayers in suffrage for them, especially the Eucharistic sacrifice. They also help them by almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance.


The Witnesses of Purgatory


Judaism


Jews in Jesus' time believed that souls who died went to Sheol or Hades, where they were divided: One group were those who would suffer in hell for eternity, another group were those who would suffer in hell temporally. It was believed that prayer could help the latter and that the Messiah would release them when he comes to usher in a time of peace and justice.



Scripture


Jesus uses the belief of temporal suffering in hell twice: Once in a parable about a merciless servant and another time when he says there are some who are neither forgiven in this age or the next age. The parable illustrates punishment in a dungeon until the last penny is paid to the king - an imagery used by the Church Fathers to refer to Purgatory - and Jesus' words on the next age illustrates forgiveness of sins after death - also used by the Church Fathers to refer to Purgatory.


Tradition


According to Sacred Tradition, Purgatory is like a dungeon where souls go to suffer temporally for their sins, being purged by their suffering, and after which they enter Heaven in clean linen robes. Besides the dungeon, other images for Purgatory include a prison, fire and smoke, a shower, a type of confessional, and a mountain.


Church Fathers

Cyprian​

It is one thing to stand for pardon, another thing to attain to glory; it is one thing, when cast into prison, not to go out thence until one has paid the uttermost farthing; another thing at once to receive the wages of faith and courage. It is one thing, tortured by long suffering for sins, to be cleansed and long purged by fire; another to have purged all sins by suffering. It is one thing, in fine, to be in suspense till the sentence of God at the Day of Judgment; another to be at once crowned by the Lord (Letters 51[55]:20 [A.D. 253]).​

​

Cyril of Jerusalem​

​

Then we make mention also of those who have already fallen asleep: first, the patriarchs, prophets, apostles, and martyrs, that through their prayers and supplications God would receive our petition, next, we make mention also of the holy fathers and bishops who have already fallen asleep, and, to put it simply, of all among us who have already fallen asleep. For we believe that it will be of very great benefit to the souls of those for whom the petition is carried up, while this holy and most solemn sacrifice is laid out (Catechetical Lectures 23:5:9 [A.D. 350]).​

​

John Chrysostom​

​

Let us help and commemorate them. If Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice [Job l:5), why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them (Homilies on First Corinthians 41:5 [A.D. 392]).​

Not in vain was it decreed by the apostles that in the awesome mysteries remembrance should be made of the departed. They knew that here there was much gain for them, much benefit. When the entire people stands with hands uplifted, a priestly assembly, and that awesome sacrificial victim is laid out, how, when we are calling upon God, should we not succeed in their defense? But this is done for those who have departed in the faith, while even the catechumens are not reckoned as worthy of this consolation, but are deprived of every means of assistance except one. And what is that? We may give alms to the poor on their behalf (Homilies on Philippians 3:9-10 [A.D. 402]).​

Other Witnesses

Origen​

If a man departs this life with lighter faults, he is condemned to fire which burns away the lighter materials, and prepares the soul for the kingdom of God, where nothing defiled may enter. For if on the foundation of Christ you have built not only gold and silver and precious stones (I Cor., 3); but also wood and hay and stubble, what do you expect when the soul shall be separated from the body? Would you enter into heaven with your wood and hay and stubble and thus defile the kingdom of God; or on account of these hindrances would you remain without and receive no reward for your gold and silver and precious stones? Neither is this just. It remains then that you be committed to the fire which will burn the light materials; for our God to those who can comprehend heavenly things is called a cleansing fire. But this fire consumes not the creature, but what the creature has himself built, wood, and hay and stubble. It is manifest that the fire destroys the wood of our transgressions and then returns to us the reward of our great works. (Patres Groeci. XIII, col. 445, 448 [A.D. 185-232]).

Tertullian​

​

That allegory of the Lord [Matt. 5:25-26] . . . is extremely clear and simple in its meaning . . . [beware lest as] a transgressor of your agreement, before God the judge . . . and lest this judge deliver you over to the angel who is to execute the sentence, and he commit you to the prison of hell, out of which there will be no dismissal until the smallest even of your delinquencies be paid off in the period before the resurrection. What can be a more fitting sense than this? What a truer interpretation? (The Soul 35 [A.D. 210]).​

The faithful widow prays for the soul of her husband, and begs for him in the interim repose, and participation in the first resurrection, and offers prayers on the anniversary of his death (Monogamy 10 [A.D. 213]).​

 

[ebia]

um, the two sound the same, have you read Dante's Purgatorio?
for starters it is not literal but poetic, the man was a poet not a mystic after all
it is just as much about art as it is about the afterlife, really, one of the themes is art itself (Inferno had politics as a theme)
with Dante we see the proud with heavy stones on their backs making them bend low, the slothful running a marathon
how ever you twisted yourself up in life is now being untwisted by grace
It has been years, but i think part of the poem even states that people could only move durring the day and froze still at night, as a symbol that we only move closer to God through His grace
but anyway, it is a poem and not ment to be a mystical vision, just a fun story

True, at least to some extent, but nevertheless it has been the common idea of purgatory for best part of a Millennium, and that idea needs to be distinguised from what Benedict means when he uses the same label. The word "purgatory" is not univocal - some ideas of purgatory (or heaven or hell for that matter) are clearly incompatible with the biblical hope, some are not.

 

[Rhamiel]

True, at least to some extent, but nevertheless it has been the common idea of purgatory for best part of a Millennium, and that idea needs to be distinguised from what Benedict means when he uses the same label. The word "purgatory" is not univocal - some ideas of purgatory (or heaven or hell for that matter) are clearly incompatible with the biblical hope, some are not.

if something hurts or not, does not seem to make a big differance
it is not punishment, but more like, well...
change hurts
transitional periods are allmost never fun
we cling to our vices, Jesus will have to rip them away from us
yeah, I assume that will hurt a little bit

but some people think it will not hurt, for us it is not even a big debate
some people see it one way, some another

 

[boswd]

Let me be the first here to reiterate my answer - Yes, we can, indeed, rule out Purgatory. After 1,000 posts on the topic it is evident to myself that Catholics hold an extremely broad understanding of the doctrine ranging from the traditional view of a hell-like place of torment where the Catholic undergoes punishment for his temporal sins (as the Catholic Catechism clearly states) to a brief episode no more uncomfortable than a refreshing shower (which is not stated in the Catechism).

are you reading from a different Cathecism?


III. THE FINAL PURIFICATION, OR PURGATORY
1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.604 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:605

[SIZE=-1]As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.606[/SIZE]

1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."607 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.608

The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:
[SIZE=-1]Let us help and commemorate them. If Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.609[/SIZE]


Don't know if I see a "Hell like state" especially one that is CLEARLY STATED as you put it.

 

[bbbbbbb]

do you want to post where the quotes from the Catechism that clearly show that Purgatory is hell-like?

Paragraph #1471 An indulgence is partial or plenary according as it removes either part or all of the temporal punishment due to sin." The faithful can gain indulgences for themselves or apply them to the dead.


Paragraph #1478 An indulgence is obtained through the Church who, by virtue of the power of binding and loosing granted her by Christ Jesus, intervenes in favor of individual Christians and opens for them the treasury of the merits of Christ and the saints to obtain from the Father of mercies the remission of the temporal punishments due for their sins.


Paragraph #1479Since the faithful departed now being purified are also members of the same communion of saints, one way we can help them is to obtain indulgences for them, so that the temporal punishments due for their sins may be remitted.


Paragraph #1496 The spiritual effects of the sacrament of Penance are:
- reconciliation with God by which the penitent recovers grace;
- reconciliation with the Church;
- remission of the eternal punishment incurred by mortal sins;
- remission, at least in part, of temporal punishments resulting from sin;

We see clearly in the above paragraphs that Purgatory is a place of punishment. The last paragraph speaks of both eternal punishment (which is hell) and temporal punishments (which is Purgatory). Both are places of punishment. Thus, Purgatory is like hell except for being temporal and not eternal in nature.

 

[boswd]

I was spanked as a child as punishment, don't know if I would say that was the equalivent of Hell and burning for eternity.

But yes punishment for not repenting your sins.
God tells us to repent. and if we don't What do you think he's a push over?

" Oh Golly geez, I know you didn't obey me well ahh shucks, just come on it you crazy kid you"

 

[Korah]

Let me be the first here to reiterate my answer - Yes, we can, indeed, rule out Purgatory. After 1,000 posts on the topic it is evident to myself that Catholics hold an extremely broad understanding of the doctrine ranging from the traditional view of a hell-like place of torment where the Catholic undergoes punishment for his temporal sins (as the Catholic Catechism clearly states) to a brief episode no more uncomfortable than a refreshing shower (which is not stated in the Catechism).

How does that rule out Purgatory, just that RC do not agree on its exact nature? That would seem to make it more likely, there being many possibilities of being right.
And the range of interpretations is larger than you suggest. Wasn't there someone who thought he had "resurrected" Purgatory from its presumed death about 1970 by understanding the in-between state before the Second Coming as the same series of reincarnations that the Hasidic Jews believe in? Yes, yes, there was, I know, because I was the one! (I had just converted to RC in 1969, believing in Purgatory, but quickly finding out that it wasn't fashionable anymore. I left RC in 1992, but I still believe the same about Purgatory, in spite of the flak I get from my fellow Lutherans.)

 

[JamesAH]

How does that rule out Purgatory, just that RC do not agree on its exact nature? That would seem to make it more likely, there being many possibilities of being right.
And the range of interpretations is larger than you suggest. Wasn't there someone who thought he had "resurrected" Purgatory from its presumed death about 1970 by understanding the in-between state before the Second Coming as the same series of reincarnations that the Hasidic Jews believe in? Yes, yes, there was, I know, because I was the one! (I had just converted to RC in 1969, believing in Purgatory, but quickly finding out that it wasn't fashionable anymore. I left RC in 1992, but I still believe the same about Purgatory, in spite of the flak I get from my fellow Lutherans.)

How can you be Lutheran and believe in Purgatory? Sounds like a contradiction. It would be the same as calling myself Catholic but not believing in Purgatory.

 

[boswd]

How can you be Lutheran and believe in Purgatory? Sounds like a contradiction. It would be the same as calling myself Catholic but not believing in Purgatory.

a final purification before entering the Kingdom was not thought up by the Catholic Church, it actually has its roots in Judaism. The Catholic Church just gave it the name, Purgatory from the word Purge meaning to cleanse. And it being some sort of place gained fame from Dante.

There were people in my Methodist Church growing up that believed in a final purification, as did John Wesley and C. S. Lewis who were Anglicans.

Also they are people in my family who are Catholic who don't believe in Purgatory, it's not must do or must believe for any Christian Faith.

 

[Frogster]

a final purification before entering the Kingdom was not thought up by the Catholic Church, it actually has its roots in Judaism. The Catholic Church just gave it the name, Purgatory from the word Purge meaning to cleanse. And it being some sort of place gained fame from Dante.

There were people in my Methodist Church growing up that believed in a final purification, as did John Wesley and C. S. Lewis who were Anglicans.

Also they are people in my family who are Catholic who don't believe in Purgatory, it's not must do or must believe for any Christian Faith.

If there was a purgatory ,there will be alot of "works people" there, to atone for the fact that they could have done sooooo much more.

 

[boswd]

If there was a purgatory ,there will be alot of "works people" there, to atone for the fact that they could have done sooooo much more.

LOL LOL What in Sam Hill is wrong with you.
Naw it's for the "Where's my Chips and the remote and NO I'm not helping you little homeless kids, Get off my porch and get a job you grimmy little %^%&$%$!!!!!!!!!"

 

[Rhamiel]

a final purification before entering the Kingdom was not thought up by the Catholic Church, it actually has its roots in Judaism. The Catholic Church just gave it the name, Purgatory from the word Purge meaning to cleanse. And it being some sort of place gained fame from Dante.

There were people in my Methodist Church growing up that believed in a final purification, as did John Wesley and C. S. Lewis who were Anglicans.

Also they are people in my family who are Catholic who don't believe in Purgatory, it's not must do or must believe for any Christian Faith.

well it is catholic doctrine
so if you want to call yourself Catholic
you kinda have to believe in it

 

[Frogster]

LOL LOL What in Sam Hill is wrong with you.
Naw it's for the "Where's my Chips and the remote and NO I'm not helping you little homeless kids, Get off my porch and get a job you grimmy little %^%&$%$!!!!!!!!!"

No way,rib eating is an art from.
Those who work,want earnings..usually pride is there payoff!foiekrguie54

 

[sunlover1]

are you reading from a different Cathecism?


III. THE FINAL PURIFICATION, OR PURGATORY
1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.604 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:605

[SIZE=-1]As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.606[/SIZE]

1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."607 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.608

The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:
[SIZE=-1]Let us help and commemorate them. If Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.609[/SIZE]


Don't know if I see a "Hell like state" especially one that is CLEARLY STATED as you put it.

Paragraph #1471 An indulgence is partial or plenary according as it removes either part or all of the temporal punishment due to sin." The faithful can gain indulgences for themselves or apply them to the dead.


Paragraph #1478 An indulgence is obtained through the Church who, by virtue of the power of binding and loosing granted her by Christ Jesus, intervenes in favor of individual Christians and opens for them the treasury of the merits of Christ and the saints to obtain from the Father of mercies the remission of the temporal punishments due for their sins.


Paragraph #1479Since the faithful departed now being purified are also members of the same communion of saints, one way we can help them is to obtain indulgences for them, so that the temporal punishments due for their sins may be remitted.


Paragraph #1496 The spiritual effects of the sacrament of Penance are:
- reconciliation with God by which the penitent recovers grace;
- reconciliation with the Church;
- remission of the eternal punishment incurred by mortal sins;
- remission, at least in part, of temporal punishments resulting from sin;

We see clearly in the above paragraphs that Purgatory is a place of punishment. The last paragraph speaks of both eternal punishment (which is hell) and temporal punishments (which is Purgatory). Both are places of punishment. Thus, Purgatory is like hell except for being temporal and not eternal in nature.

This is the thread I had authored to investigate purgatory

I think this might help me with the question I had on the other purgatory thread

 

[Trento]

Let me be the first here to reiterate my answer - Yes, we can, indeed, rule out Purgatory. After 1,000 posts on the topic it is evident to myself that Catholics hold an extremely broad understanding of the doctrine ranging from the traditional view of a hell-like place of torment where the Catholic undergoes punishment for his temporal sins (as the Catholic Catechism clearly states) to a brief episode no more uncomfortable than a refreshing shower (which is not stated in the Catechism).

If the Jews believed it, and Jesus
never rebuked them for this or taught otherwise, then Purgatory must exist.

This Orthodox Jewish site proves what the Jews believed.

The Yahrzeit Organization -
PastQuestion’s and Answers

Click on Is this what Catholics do and you will find this.


Q) I was reading about the Kaddish and in it you state: "The Rabbis teach us that Kaddish is a source of merit for the soul. Also, when you give charity in the name of a deceased, it can abolish evil decrees." My question: Is this like what the Catholics do in their belief of purgatory? When you say "charity... [abolishing] evil decrees," is this comparable to the Catholic doctrine of indulgences? Are these prayers for purification of the dead, or are they used to provide a greater experience of peace and happiness for the dead? Also, when did the Kaddish come into being? Is it Scriptural (Torah or otherwise) or is it a tradition? Please let me know. I am really interested in so many things on your website

A) If a soul is in purgatory, the recitation of kaddish or the act of charity can help to get that soul out. The way this works is that the reward for the act of sanctifying G-d's name through reciting the kaddish or doing an act of kindness is transferred to the soul in purgatory by the person who does the mitzva by thinking, before the act, "I'm doing this act of charity or reciting this kaddish in the merit of ________." The kaddish is not Scriptural, it is Rabbinic. It was composed in Mishnaic times circa 100 B.C.E.
The Jewish religion came before catholic and therefore the custom of kaddish and that of charity was from the Jewish religion.