Can we be sinlessly perfect?

woobadooba · Dec 16, 2005

YeshuamySalvation said:
No we don't because he does deliver us from it's dominion but we don't become automatons after we have been delivered from it, we fall very far from perfection so no we cannot be sinless we have many sins we can't even discern these are called secret faults in scripture, thus we fall very short from "sinless perfection" and as i mentioned before to never sin again is to forfeight being a sinner that runs contrary to 1 John 1:8-10.

No, john just simply stated that he who says he is without sin is a liar; but he never said that it is impossible for us to be sinless. You said that, not John!

Now, perhaps you can show me in the Bible where it states that a sinner can never become sinless.

YeshuamySalvation · Dec 16, 2005

woobadooba said:
No, john just simply stated that he who says he is without sin is a liar; but he never said that it is impossible for us to be sinless. You said that, not John!

Now, perhaps you can show me in the Bible where it states that a sinner can never become sinless.

The fact that some of us say we can't sin through Christ, means that we cannot sin and have forfeighted being a sinner, if we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives. (1 John 1:8-10)

So, if we claim to be without sin that is, not sinful now, or to have never sinned previously or ever, then we are deceived and the truth is not in us, and we call God, who has pronounced all of us as sinners, that is that we are incapable of being sinnless, a liar.

(Psalm 19:12-13) Who can understand his errors? Cleanse Thou me from secret faults. Keep back Thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me. Then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent of the great transgression.(Psalm 19:12-13)

So as we can see that David contrast "presumptuous sins" with secret faults, these secret faults are so well hidden that we cannot even begin to discern those mistakes. These faults are certainly sins, they are sins we can't discern, or else David would not have asked God to cleanse him from those "Faults".

Now the question is how can you say your a sinner and not sin? Could you properly say that without implying that you don't have sin any longer?

I still have not heard one person tell me that he does not sin, i know why though because the implication is clear it would be to deny that he or she is a sinner.

OntheDL · Dec 16, 2005

Shalom,

YeshuamySalvation said:
Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

I believe this is better understood if we follow the context of the scriptures rather than building a doctrine of spinelessness out of a text that if read in it's context does not support it, to me this passage deals more with acts of charity rather than a doctrine of spinelessness, It is Gods perfection to forgive and love those that hate you, to bless them that curse you, and to pray for them that despitefully use you and persecute you.

One of the unique teachings of Adventism is that when we go to heaven our character is the only thing we will take with us from this earth. But if we still have seed of sin and rebellion in our hearts, we cannot behold His face and dwell with Him in eternity.

God requires perfection and holiness from us. It has always been so from the beginning.

Gen 17:1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

Deut 18:13 Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God.

Lev 19:2 Speak unto all the congregation of the children of Israel, and say unto them, Ye shall be holy: for I the LORD your God am holy.

1 Peter 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

He cannot sin, in the sense in which Paul says, He cannot continue willfully practicing sin.

Yes, we agree we can not willfully sin. If we sin ignorantly, it is not a rebellion, the covenant is not broken. But after we receive the knowledge for our innocent sin, we repent and yet we do it over and over, then the innocent sin becomes willful sin and an act of rebellion.

Being sinless means we do not willfully sin and if we sin ignorantly, we will not do it again and again after we are told of the sin. Sin has less and less dominance over our lives. We are then gradually transformed into the image of Christ.

We all have had worldly pleasures we once cherished. After meeting Christ, we no longer enjoy doing some of them. That's the holy spirit working in us to rid ourselves all worldly things and make us reflect His character.

If God promised by Grace, He will make us perfect, He will remove our stony hearts and give us hearts of flesh and He will write the law in our hearts, then how can we not believe in His promise that we should and can be sinless?

woobadooba · Dec 16, 2005

YeshuamySalvation said:
The fact that some of us say we can't sin through Christ, means that we cannot sin and have forfeighted being a sinner, if we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives. (1 John 1:8-10)

So, if we claim to be without sin that is, not sinful now, or to have never sinned previously or ever, then we are deceived and the truth is not in us, and we call God, who has pronounced all of us as sinners, that is that we are incapable of being sinnless, a liar.

(Psalm 19:12-13) Who can understand his errors? Cleanse Thou me from secret faults. Keep back Thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me. Then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent of the great transgression.(Psalm 19:12-13)

So as we can see that David contrast "presumptuous sins" with secret faults, these secret faults are so well hidden that we cannot even begin to discern those mistakes. These faults are certainly sins, they are sins we can't discern, or else David would not have asked God to cleanse him from those "Faults".

Now the question is how can you say your a sinner and not sin? Could you properly say that without implying that you don't have sin any longer?

I still have not heard one person tell me that he does not sin, i know why though because the implication is clear it would be to deny that he or she is a sinner.

Ok, let's make this simple. I want a yes or no answer for this question: Do you believe that Jesus has the power to deliver you from your sins?

YeshuamySalvation · Dec 16, 2005

woobadooba said:
Ok, let's make this simple. I want a yes or no answer for this question: Do you believe that Jesus has the power to deliver you from your sins?

The answer is yes he has delivered me from it's dominion sin no longer rules nor does it have any dominion over me, yet i still am a sinner, are you?

moicherie · Dec 16, 2005

YeshuamySalvation said:
The answer is yes he has delivered me from it's dominion sin no longer rules nor does it have any dominion over me, yet i still am a sinner, are you?

Paul called himself Chief of sinners unless he was woefully misguided maybe he should have called himself Chief of the sinless?

OntheDL · Dec 16, 2005

moicherie said:
Paul called himself Chief of sinners unless he was woefully misguided maybe he should have called himself Chief of the sinless?

Greetings,

Sinners we are and we will not know when we reach the state of perfect obedience until the end.

Our christian walk is a journey not a destination. Paul was on his journey of sanctification (make holy). And we are all on this journey (thank God, He hasn't called us yet). We call ourselves christians, we should reflect His character and not take His name in vein. We should produce fuit. At the end of our walk which He will finish in us, we should be able to say like Paul did at his: "I have fought a good fight, I have finished my race, I have kept the faith. There is a crown of righteousness layed up for me."

woobadooba · Dec 16, 2005

YeshuamySalvation said:
The answer is yes he has delivered me from it's dominion sin no longer rules nor does it have any dominion over me, yet i still am a sinner, are you?

Now, I do sin from time to time, but that doesn't mean God can't give me the strength to overcome such wickedness.

You see, the reason why we keep on sinning is because we would rather give in to the so-called pleasures of sin, instead of submitting to the joy of the Lord, which, according to the Bible, is our strength to overcome the many temptations that assail us.

We give in because we are, in some way, unhappy in our walk with God. You see, we find no pleasure in doing that which is right at the point of sin because we have no faith that by doing what is right we will secure true happiness. Instead, we think that by doing what is wrong, that we will get what we want, without realizing that what we want really has nothing to do with what we need.

Until we come to the point of recognizing that Christ is all that we need, we will continue to live in sin, because we will find no satisfaction in turning away from those things that continue to keep us from experiencing the true nature of God's joy.

And if you are thinking that by Paul declaring himself to be the Chief of sinners, that he was stating that we could never be sinless, you are mistaken. Paul was filled with guilt for what he had done to God's people prior to becoming a Christian. And that is why he said that.

Furthermore, if God can deliver you from one sin, then He can deliver you from all sin. That is the gospel, and it would do you well to study it in greater depth. Rom. 1:16

woobadooba · Dec 16, 2005

moicherie said:
Paul called himself Chief of sinners unless he was woefully misguided maybe he should have called himself Chief of the sinless?

But the statement, "I am the chief of sinners", is not the same thing as saying, "We can never become sinless."

YeshuamySalvation · Dec 16, 2005

woobadooba said:
Now, I do sin from time to time, but that doesn't mean God can't give me the strength to overcome such wickedness.

And not only from time to time will you sin but always because that is our inclination we are sinners, through Christ you will overcome those sins that you know your commiting but you will still have faults, infact I think the closer you get to the Lord, the more unworthy you would see yourself.

Isa 6:5 Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I ama man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.

If you've read the book of Isaiah...you would know that Isaiah was the most righteous man in the land! When he was in the presence of God, however...he said woe is me.... i am a man of unclean lips...I would say he was very humbled in the presence of God. He acknowledged that he was so very sinful that he couldn't even stand in the presence of God.

If we know about sin, we would know about our sin, and we would know that we sin everyday ignorantly, or however, we do not cease to be sinners as Mr.Crews assumes.

You see, the reason why we keep on sinning is because we would rather give in to the so-called pleasures of sin, instead of submitting to the joy of the Lord, which, according to the Bible, is our strength to overcome the many temptations that assail us.

Your right but know one has mentioned anything about prefering the pleasures of sin rather then submitting to the Lord and rejoicing in him, we are not trying to promote sin by accepting what the Lord has already said in his word, the Lord has pronounced us all as sinners and that is final.

And if you are thinking that by Paul declaring himself to be the Chief of sinners, that he was stating that we could never be sinless, you are mistaken. Paul was filled with guilt for what he had done to God's people prior to becoming a Christian. And that is why he said that.

And even after his conversion he was still a sinner never did he say he was sinless, Paul was Saved and even after his conversion, he Struggled with the Indwelling Sinful Nature.....

Rom 7:15-25 15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

There is what is called the spiritual seminal principle or disposition, that breaks the force and fulness of the sinful acts. They proceed not from the power of corruption as they do in others, nor do they obtain that plenitude of heart, spirit, and consent, which they do in others. The spirit lusteth against the flesh. And therefore in respect to such sin it may be said, It is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. It is not reckoned the persons sin, in the gospel account, where the bent and frame of his mind and his spirit are against it, it is clear that the sinful nature dwelles inside of the person thus the person will continue being a sinner till the sinful nature is destroyed from the hearts of God's children in Yeshua's comming, till then we will continue being sinners till the trumpets sound.

Furthermore, if God can deliver you from one sin, then He can deliver you from all sin. That is the gospel, and it would do you well to study it in greater depth. Rom. 1:16

It always amazes me how these type of words come out on a message board from some people.... almost as if it is given that you perhaps think you have studied Scripture more than I have... never taking into consideration that perhaps, just perhaps, the person on the other end of the screen might actually have something that should prompt you to do more study! Running the risk of sounding the braggart and arrogant which is not my intent... I will keep my silence.

woobadooba · Dec 16, 2005

YeshuamySalvation said:
It always amazes me how these type of words come out on a message board from some people.... almost as if it is given that you perhaps think you have studied Scripture more than I have... never taking into consideration that perhaps, just perhaps, the person on the other end of the screen might actually have something that should prompt you to do more study! Running the risk of sounding the braggart and arrogant which is not my intent... I will keep my silence.

It's too late for that

Oh, and if you want to deny that God is capable of giving you victory over all of your sins, then you have every right to do that; but don't expect those of us who trust that God can deliver us from our sins to agree with you!

It doesn't mean we are unlearned, or less adept than you are theologically either. It just simply means that we don't agree with you.

However, I will say this: the problem with your theological stance on this issue is that you are failing to take your premise to its final conclusion. You see, if what you are saying is true, that it is not possible for us to be sinless, not only must we assume that God isn't all powerful, in that He can't deliver us from all of our sins, but we must also assume that when we get to heaven, we will be controlled by God, since sin won't rise up a second time, it will thus be impossible to sin against Him.

Hence, your premise not only does away with the omnipotence of God, but also free-will.

And you can argue that we are in a fallen state, and that is why it is not possible; but even in saying that, you are not only denying the omnipotence of God, but also the fact that we have free-will in that you are implying that it isn't possible for us to say no to every temptation, and thus overcome the carnal nature through Christ.

By the way...

Just because someone calls himself the chief of sinners, that doesn't mean he is. It is not a sin to feel guilty or ashamed for what one has done, even if he has been forgiven.

My advice to you before you respond to this is: think it through.

Haggai · Dec 16, 2005

I have also read the booklett by Joe Crews. I do beleive you can live without sinning, but not in your own strength, only through the power of Christ. I think it is a long process and you don't just stop sinning immediately. I beleive that the 144,000 will be sinless, otherwise they will not be able to enter God's presence. I beleive once probation has closed, all the saints will be perfect. Here is (just a little of a lot) some scriptures and SOP to back my beleif up.

Ex 20:20 "And Moses said unto the people, Fear not: for God is come to prove you, and that his fear may be before your faces, that ye sin not."

Ps 4:4 "Stand in awe, and sin not: commune with your own heart upon your bed, and be still. Selah."

1 Cor 15:34 "Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame."

1 John 2:1 "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not."

Matt 5:48 "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."

DA (Desire of Ages) 311 "God's ideal for His children is higher than the highest human thought can reach. 'Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.' This command is a promise. The plan of redemption contemplates our complete recovery from the power of Satan. Christ always separates the contrite soul from sin. He came to destroy the works of the devil, and He has made provision that the Holy Spirit shall be imparted to every repentant soul, to keep him from sinning." (Notice that she quotes from the Bible the verse about being perfect.)

Rev 3:21 "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne." (This verse clearly shows us to what extent we are to over come.)

***Christ overcame, but did he just use his Godly powers to overcome, or did he do it as we are to do it, using the strength of His Father?

1 Peter 2:21-22
21 "For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:"
22 "Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:"

*** The above verses show that we should follow His [Jesus's] steps, and how would we be able to that if He used his Godly power to overcome, and we don't have Godly powers to do the same?

COL (Christ Object Lessons) "When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own."

*** Jesus forgives our sins in the heavely sanctuary. When you understand the sanctuary message, then this will be easily understood. Jesus is our high priest, and asks God (the Father) to forgive our sins, just as the high priests in the Old Testement did. But when Jesus leaves the Most Holy Place in the heavenly sanctuary, then there is no more remission for our sins, and that is when He comes to take His people.

"Behold the apostle preaching in the synagogue at Corinth, reasoning from the writings of Moses and the prophets, and bringing his hearers down to the advent of the promised Messiah. Listen as he makes plain the work of the Redeemer as the great high priest of mankind--the One who through the sacrifice of His own life was to make atonement for sin once for all, and was then to take up His ministry in the heavenly sanctuary. Paul's hearers were made to understand that the Messiah for whose advent they had been longing, had already come; that His death was the antitype of all the sacrificial offerings, and that His ministry in the sanctuary in heaven was the great object that cast its shadow backward and made clear the ministry of the Jewish priesthood." 247{AA 246.2} (Acts of the Apostles)

"Instead of the prophecy of Daniel 8:14 referring to the purifying of the earth, it was now plain that it pointed to the closing work of our High Priest in heaven, the finishing of the atonement, and the preparing of the people to abide the day of His coming." {CET 56.3}

YeshuamySalvation · Dec 17, 2005

woobadooba said:
Oh, and if you want to deny that God is capable of giving you victory over all of your sins, then you have every right to do that; but don't expect those of us who trust that God can deliver us from our sins to agree with you!

I don't deny i accept God's word as it is and God's word prounced me as a sinner so i am a sinner.

It doesn't mean we are unlearned, or less adept than you are theologically either. It just simply means that we don't agree with you.

Well cannot agree with a doctrine that saids that we forfeight being sinners.

However, I will say this: the problem with your theological stance on this issue is that you are failing to take your premise to its final conclusion. You see, if what you are saying is true, that it is not possible for us to be sinless, not only must we assume that God isn't all powerful, in that He can't deliver us from all of our sins, but we must also assume that when we get to heaven, we will be controlled by God, since sin won't rise up a second time, it will thus be impossible to sin against Him.

Actually to believe that we are sinners does not assume that God isn't all mighty he could certainly do anything he wants, but he does not break his word, now to believe in sinless perfection is to deny that when we are in Christ we remain sinners.

Hence, your premise not only does away with the omnipotence of God, but also free-will.

Your getting way off the topic here, if you want to speak about what you believe my premise is lets just make a thread of it's own LOL....

And you can argue that we are in a fallen state, and that is why it is not possible; but even in saying that, you are not only denying the omnipotence of God, but also the fact that we have free-will in that you are implying that it isn't possible for us to say no to every temptation, and thus overcome the carnal nature through Christ.

The bible does not tell us anywere to say no to sin nor to temptations but rather to say yes to Yeshua.

2 Cor 1:18-20 But as God is true, our word toward you was not "yea" and "nay."
19For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us, even by me and Silvanus and Timothy, was not "yea" and "nay," but in Him was "yea."20For all the promises of God in Him are "yea"; and in Him "amen" unto the glory of God by us.

By the way...

Just because someone calls himself the chief of sinners, that doesn't mean he is. It is not a sin to feel guilty or ashamed for what one has done, even if he has been forgiven.

Certainly does he not only called himself the chief of sinners, he also strugguled with his sinful nature way after his conversion as i showed on my previous post.

My advice to you before you respond to this is: think it through.

I thought it through many times i don't find it logical nor reasonable.

God bless you and have a wonderful Sabbath.

woobadooba · Dec 17, 2005

YeshuamySalvation said:
I don't deny i accept God's word as it is and God's word prounced me as a sinner so i am a sinner.

Well cannot agree with a doctrine that saids that we forfeight being sinners.

Actually to believe that we are sinners does not assume that God isn't all mighty he could certainly do anything he wants, but he does not break his word, now to believe in sinless perfection is to deny that when we are in Christ we remain sinners.

Your getting way off the topic here, if you want to speak about what you believe my premise is lets just make a thread of it's own LOL....

The bible does not tell us anywere to say no to sin nor to temptations but rather to say yes to Yeshua.

2 Cor 1:18-20 But as God is true, our word toward you was not "yea" and "nay."
19For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us, even by me and Silvanus and Timothy, was not "yea" and "nay," but in Him was "yea."20For all the promises of God in Him are "yea"; and in Him "amen" unto the glory of God by us.

Certainly does he not only called himself the chief of sinners, he also strugguled with his sinful nature way after his conversion as i showed on my previous post.

I thought it through many times i don't find it logical nor reasonable.

God bless you and have a wonderful Sabbath.

But you are missing the point. The issue isn't: are we sinners? The issue is: Can we ever be sinless?

Indeed we are sinners; but God has the power to enable us to become sinless.

And if you don't agree with this, then the only conclusion that you can imply is that you don't believe that God has the power to deliver you from all of your sins.

Really, what sense is there in talking about sanctification if it weren't possible for us to become sinless?

And no, from your comments, it is clear to me that you haven't put much thought into this.

Anyway, I wish you a happy Sabbath too.

YeshuamySalvation · Dec 17, 2005

woobadooba said:
But you are missing the point. The issue isn't: are we sinners? The issue is: Can we ever be sinless? Indeed we are sinners; but God has the power to enable us to become sinless.

Ive already addressed that many times if at one point in your life you are sinless that means you cease to be a sinner.

And if you don't agree with this, then the only conclusion that you can imply is that you don't believe that God has the power to deliver you from all of your sins.

I believe it as scripture teaches he delivers us from it's dominion we are no longer slaves to our sinful nature but we never cease to be sinners.

And no, from your comments, it is clear to me that you haven't put much thought into this.

Anyway, I wish you a happy Sabbath too.

Let me ask you my brother and please don't be offended, you told me that you do sin at times is that right?

Here comes the next question do you think you let go of Christ and Christ lets go of you when you commite one act of sin?

Do you think that God is waiting for you to messup to deprive you from the precious gift of salvation he has freely given to you?

How fruitful do you think you need to be to pay your ticket to heaven would you ever know if you had the "right kind" of faith that is really producing enough good works or the right kind of good works, or bearing enough fruit, or bearing the right kind of fruit to earn merit, how sure are you about your salvation if you have not reached a state of sinlessnes yet?

God bless you my brother. Talk to you tommorrow

woobadooba · Dec 17, 2005

YeshuamySalvation said:
How fruitful do you think you need to be to pay your ticket to heaven would you ever know if you had the "right kind" of faith that is really producing enough good works or the right kind of good works, or bearing enough fruit, or bearing the right kind of fruit to earn merit, how sure are you about your salvation if you have not reached a state of sinlessnes yet?
God bless you my brother. Talk to you tommorrow

And this is where you fall short in understanding the gospel: We who abide in Christ are no longer sinners, but sons and daughters of God. We are new creatures in Christ. 1Cor. 5:17

Furthermore, sinlessness doesn't save anyone; Jesus does! And it is only by His grace that we can thus be pronounced to be sinless, even though we still fall short of the glory of God in many ways.

Indeed the Bible tells us that all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God, and that he who says he is without sin is a liar; but there is a context to these sayings.

1. The first one informs us that we are all in need of a savior.

2. The second one informs the proud in heart who think they don't have any reason to repent, that they too are sinful.

However, neither one of these sayings implies that we can never become sinless. So then, you are reading meaning into these passages that isn't there.

Have you received Jesus Christ into your heart?

If so, you are not a sinner. You are a child of God. You are forgiven.

In God's eyes, you are perfect.

But God is still working on your heart nonetheless. This is called sanctification. And one day, as long as you hold fast to your first love, you will literally be sinless, when God brings His sanctifying work to its consumation in your life.

That's the gospel!

Haggai · Dec 17, 2005

YeshuamySalvation said:
I don't deny i accept God's word as it is and God's word prounced me as a sinner so i am a sinner.

Well cannot agree with a doctrine that saids that we forfeight being sinners.

Actually to believe that we are sinners does not assume that God isn't all mighty he could certainly do anything he wants, but he does not break his word, now to believe in sinless perfection is to deny that when we are in Christ we remain sinners.

Your getting way off the topic here, if you want to speak about what you believe my premise is lets just make a thread of it's own LOL....

The bible does not tell us anywere to say no to sin nor to temptations but rather to say yes to Yeshua.

2 Cor 1:18-20 But as God is true, our word toward you was not "yea" and "nay."
19For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us, even by me and Silvanus and Timothy, was not "yea" and "nay," but in Him was "yea."20For all the promises of God in Him are "yea"; and in Him "amen" unto the glory of God by us.

Certainly does he not only called himself the chief of sinners, he also strugguled with his sinful nature way after his conversion as i showed on my previous post.

I thought it through many times i don't find it logical nor reasonable.

God bless you and have a wonderful Sabbath.

The Bible certainly does tell us to resist temptation, it tells us to overcome, and to keep the commandments of God. You should know what you're talking about before you make fictional assumptions.

YeshuamySalvation · Dec 17, 2005

woobadooba said:
And this is where you fall short in understanding the gospel: We who abide in Christ are no longer sinners, but sons and daughters of God. We are new creatures in Christ. 1 Cor. 5:17

This sounds contradictory to what you said on your post 34....

But you are missing the point. The issue isn't: are we sinners? The issue is: Can we ever be sinless? Indeed we are sinners;

You admited that we are sinners and now you are denying it.

I guess your strategy is to repeat the same "non sequiturs" over and over again. Plus you have not addressed the questions I posted with any logical argument you skip roped them.

John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to those who believe in His name,

Rom. 8:14-17

14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear, but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, "Abba! Father!"

16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit that we are the children of God;

17and if children, then heirs -- heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if so it be that we suffer with Him, that we may be also glorified together.

We are sons and daughters of the most high when we accept Christ as our Lord and Saviour, that does not mean that when we are in Christ we cease to have a sinful nature or cease to be sinners.

In fact the sinful nature will not be destroyed from our hearts till the trumpets sound and the dead rise 1 Cor 15:50-53... then we shall be changed from corruptible to incorruptible.

You'll have to come up with more than a personal opinion repeated over and over, just to keep me from getting really bored and falling asleep on you.

Furthermore, sinlessness doesn't save anyone; Jesus does! And it is only by His grace that we can thus be pronounced to be sinless, even though we still fall short of the glory of God in many ways.

Exactely only Jesus Saves period no ifs ands or buts Jesus alone saves.

John 5

24" I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.

John 10
28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.

1 John 5
12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

These scriptures that i posted above give us all the assurance we need to know that we have eternal life upon accepting Christ as our Lord and Saviour. We don't have to wait till the day of judgment to know if we had the "right kind" of faith that is really producing enough good works, or bearing enough fruits merit it.

Indeed the Bible tells us that all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God, and that he who says he is without sin is a liar; but there is a context to these sayings.

1. The first one informs us that we are all in need of a savior.

2. The second one informs the proud in heart who think they don't have any reason to repent, that they too are sinful.

However, neither one of these sayings implies that we can never become sinless. So then, you are reading meaning into these passages that isn't there.

the meaning is clear, If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us, meaning that by believeing we can be sinless we decieve no one else but ourselves... John 1:8....

Have you received Jesus Christ into your heart?

If so, you are not a sinner.

Yes i have but more importantly he has recieved me as i am a wretched and imperfect man that falls well short from his glory, any righteous act that i may preform the credit is his not mine, it is his righteousness not my own.

You are a child of God. You are forgiven.

I know that!!

In God's eyes, you are perfect.

Right own!!

But God is still working on your heart nonetheless. This is called sanctification. And one day, as long as you hold fast to your first love, you will literally be sinless, when God brings His sanctifying work to its consumation in your life.

That's the gospel!

Santification is a life long process and has nothing to do with our salvation.

God bless you my dear brother..

woobadooba · Dec 17, 2005

YeshuamySalvation said:
Santification is a life long process and has nothing to do with our salvation.

Before I address this erroneous statement, I want to inform you that I am aware of what I had said in saying that we are sinners, but then telling you that we are not sinners, but sons and daughters of God.

We are sinners in the sense that we are not totally free from the sinful nature; but by faith we have taken on a new life in Christ nonetheless. Thus we are not perceived by God as such anymore, but as sons and daughters.

You see, it does help to get the context of a statement before making such hasty judgment calls! After all, didn't Paul talk about the law being abolished in some places, but also spoke of it as that which is to be upheld in other places? Would you also accuse him of rendering a non sequitur?

Context is key. Remember that.

Now, about your statement:

Sanctification has everything to do with salvation. You see, we aren't just saved from the guilt of sin, but we are also being saved from the power of sin, and eventually we will be saved from the nature of sin. This is called sanctification! And it has everything to to do with salvation! It is the power of the gospel!

Oh, and by the way, no, I don't believe that we jump in and out of Christ every time we repent or sin.

But the real issue here is that we fail at the point of temptation because we refuse to get down on our knees! We refuse to receive the power that God wants to give us to secure our victory over sin! Temptation doesn't make us sin. We choose to sin.

And just as we choose to sin, we can also choose not to sin. So yes, there is no temptation too great that God can not give us the power to turn away from it. 1Cor. 10:13

And if you believe what Paul had said in 1Cor. 10:13, then you must recant your argument that we can't become sinless!

All sin can be overcome! Ask God to help you to believe the words of Paul in Phil. 4:13!

YeshuamySalvation · Dec 18, 2005

woobadooba said:
Before I address this erroneous statement,

I really do not mean to turn this into a "battle." I am posting in a good spirit, I hope it doesn't come across otherwise. I'm real sorry if i offended you with the statement i made, it was not my intention.

it's erronous to believe that Christ alone secures our Salvation? so if you base your salvation on how well you preform then you will honestly admite that it is by works right, plus you will never ever no if you have it since you have to preform to earn it you'll never know for sure if your pleasing God enough.

I want to inform you that I am aware of what I had said in saying that we are sinners, but then telling you that we are not sinners, but sons and daughters of God.

If we are sons of God then you should also accept that as sons and daughters we do make mistakes and if at one point we are born into his family we cannot be unborn out if his family, just as a sheep does not turn into a goat, neither does a son of God almighty cease to be his son because he is not perfect.

You see, it does help to get the context of a statement before making such hasty judgment calls! After all, didn't Paul talk about the law being abolished in some places, but also spoke of it as that which is to be upheld in other places? Would you also accuse him of rendering a non sequitur?

Context is key. Remember that.

And you will have to show me were are you seeing this, Paul does not abolish any Law he upholds them all. Please read my posts 1, 2, 3 and 7 heres the link. http://www.christianforums.com/t2370192-does-gods-grace-cancel-his-laws.html

Oh, and by the way, no, I don't believe that we jump in and out of Christ every time we repent or sin.

This does not answer the previous questions.

But the real issue here is that we fail at the point of temptation because we refuse to get down on our knees! We refuse to receive the power that God wants to give us to secure our victory over sin! Temptation doesn't make us sin. We choose to sin.

We don't repent to gain eternal life or to hang onto it. Biblical repentance means to "change your mind," typically about sin. Whether or not you follow through is not the issue. It's all about what's going on in your mind.

Now santifictaion and good works do matter. Both in this life and concerning the kind of rewards we are going to recieve in the future- once Christ returns.

And if you believe what Paul had said in 1Cor. 10:13, then you must recant your argument that we can't become sinless!

This passage has nothing to say on sinlessnes rather that God will not suffer you to be tempted beyond that which you are able to bear, but with the temptation he will also make a way to escape it, that you may be able to bear it.

Again you continue to assume that what i'm trying to say is that we cannot have victory over temptation and sin, that is far from what i'm saying, Christ gives us the victory over sin in that we are no longer inslaven to it, he frees us from it's dominion but we remain sinners because we have a sinful nature and we sin ignorantly at times... Now many take 1 John 3:6-9 to say that a child of God cannot commit an act of sin, without even considering the conclusions they must reach...

If you commit an act of sin you are of the devil and you have not seen Christ, neither do you know Him.

In a similar twist, many take Hebrews 6:4-6 "it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance..." to teach that the elect can lose there salvation, yet they don't even consider the conclusion they must also reach then...

If you've ever given up your salvation, you can never ever get it back, No matter if you repent and sincerely ask God to forgive you of your sins, even if you strive for the rest of your life to serve God as best as you possibily can, and tell him that you love him with all of your heart, mind, soul, and strengths, he still won't forgive you of your sins. Something that doesn't sound logical nor reasonable if interpreted like that.

All sin can be overcome! Ask God to help you to believe the words of Paul in Phil. 4:13!

9Those things which ye have both learned and received and heard and seen in me, do; and the God of peace shall be with you.
10But I rejoiced in the Lord greatly that now at last your care for me hath flourished again; though ye always cared, ye lacked opportunity.

11Not that I speak in respect to want, for I have learned in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content.

12I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound. Everywhere and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need.

13I can do all things through Christ who strengtheneth me.

You speak about reading in context but does this sound to you like Paul is speaking about sinlessnes.

Can we be sinlessly perfect?

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