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Can there be more than 1 true church?

Root of Jesse

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Hi everyone, I would like to start a topic about the "One True Church" and how I theorize that there is more than 1 Church that carries the teachings of the apostles.
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First, I don't believe in a One True Church. (This maybe strange for a Catholic to say) but I believe there are two different types of Churches.
1. Physical church that Holy Spirit dwells - it has kept and preserved the true apostolic tradition.
2. is the church with in a person - the inner temple of the Holy Spirit.

On this topic, i am only focusing on #1: Which church is the one that (i believe) is theologically accurate to the teachings of the Apostles.

These churches are: Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox - and to some degree the Anglicans.
Now, since I am a catholic, you may ask: "what about Matt 16:18"? Yes, we believe that this defines us as the true Church of Christ.. and yes, I believe that the Church Jesus built on Peter is the Catholic church.

However, didn't other apostles themselves build churches too? These apostles also received the teachings of Jesus, and they all spread out to different parts of the world.. obviously they either built a church there or their apostles did.
The apostles themselves had different perspectives and personalities, the gospels themselves have different portrayals. So maybe it's just like with Jesus' Church -- we all just root to different apostles, therefore have different personalities and perspectives in regards to tradition?

Note: this is just a theory i have at the moment, not something I am forcing to be fact.
The apostles all received the same teaching from Jesus. That teaching is universal. What they brought to the world was that teaching. They may have instituted different was of practicing that teaching, but the teaching would be the same, and that's what Catholics are concerned with.
 
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Root of Jesse

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No.

While I think it's possible for the Grace of God to work in different church communities, there cannot be different Communions of Churches that are equally the same, because that would mean that God - who if infinitely good, and infinitely love - views contradiction and lies as equivalent to Truth. Did Christ ever lie?

The Roman Catholic Church firmly believes in the dogma of the Immaculate Conception - that is, humans inherit the guilt from the sin of Adam and Eve, and the Virgin Mary was exempt of this inheritance through God's grace.

The Orthodox Church views this as heretical, some even going so far as to say it's blasphemous, because it says that someone as holy as the Virgin Mary couldn't have been that sinless on her own free will. They deny this idea of the inheritance of the guilt of Original Sin, so thus, the Immaculate Conception cannot be True.

Therefore, it must be the case that one of these Churches is right, and one of them is wrong. They cannot simultaneously be right, or say that these ideas are "the same" but "expressed in different ways." They are contradictory ideas; one is blasphemous, one is divinely revealed truth.

If there weren't contradictions, there wouldn't be the schisms we see today.

This even gets into moral issues as well. The Anglican Church believes it's morally acceptable to ordain women. The Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic Church say otherwise. They both can't be morally right, and this is merely an issue of Church ecclesiology, not even controversial topics of Abortion, LGBTQ, Contraception, etc.

Again, they both can't be right.

Also, all the Apostolic Claimant Churches (Anglican, Orthodox, Roman Catholic, etc.) hold to a principle of Apostolic Succession that is different than how you describe it. It isn't just merely that you are descended from a particular literal Apostle; rather, your Church contains the fullness of the Church, of the Apostles, of the Saints, in each Bishop which can all be traced back to the Apostles. Each Bishop is a successor of the Apostles; Saint Ignatius of Antioch points this out with "Where the Bishop is, there is the Church." In order to be a successor of the Apostles, you have to teach exactly what the Apostles taught.

This isn't a new idea you are espousing, it's an idea of "branch theory" that both Orthodox and Roman Catholics (at least historically) have explicitly condemned as heretical. As Saint Paul says, "One Faith, One Lord, One Baptism."

Plus, it's not like the Apostles were isolated. They were in contact with each other and kept tabs on things; Saint Clement had to deal with the problems in Corinth. I mean, yeah, Saint Thomas in India probably didn't keep tabs on Saint Paul in Greece, but it's not like they were isolated figures who didn't talk with each other and who expressed dogmatic Truth differently.
Regarding your example, the Immaculate Conception, I have a couple of points to make. Whether you agree with the reasoning or not is not the point. It is the logic of the Church. I understand that people don't see this, but this is what the Church sees:
"And the angel came in unto her, and said, hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women." - Luke 1:28
It is the term "full of grace" that is emphasized by the Church when dealing with Mary's Immaculate Conception. The title "full of grace" comes from the Greek word kecharitomene, which describes a "perfection" and "abundance" of grace. In other words, Mary was proclaimed by the angel to be with a perfection of grace, which was a very powerful statement. How can Mary be completely and perfectly with God's grace, yet still have sin left in her? Christians eventually came to recognize that it was extremely possible for Mary to be without sin, especially if she was completely filled with God's grace. Luke 1:28 happens to be the only place in the Bible where anyone is addressed with the important title of "full of grace."

"the Holy Ghost shall come upon you, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow you: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of you shall be called the Son of God." - Luke 1:35
Luke 1:35 shows Mary as the Ark of the New Covenant. According to the Old Testament, the Ark of the Covenant was the pure and holy vessel that held the Ten Commandments (the Old Covenant). The Ark was so holy in fact, that if anyone where to touch it they could actually fall down and die! It was housed in the Holy of Holies, which was a perfectly clean place where the Jewish high priests could enter only once a year according to their law (See Lev. 16:2-4). So how are Mary and the Ark related? The same language that describes God's "dwelling" place for the Old Ark is used again for Mary's overshadowing by the Holy Spirit. Put another way, the Old Ark held God's Ten Commandments and could not be touched by human hands because of its holiness. Mary, the New Ark, holds the New Covenant in her womb, which is Jesus Christ. How much holier is Christ than the Ten Commandments? It only makes sense that for Mary to hold God in her womb, she too would be completely pure and without any sin.

"I will put enmity between you and the woman, between your seed (offspring) and hers; He (she) will crush your head while you strike at his (her) heel." - Genesis 3:15
What does the book of Genesis have to do with Mary's Immaculate Conception? Genesis 3:15 is the first passage in the Bible that refers to Jesus defeating Satan on the cross. It is also the first verse that shows us how Mary would become the New Eve. The seed of the woman, who would crush the serpent's head, is Jesus. The woman at enmity, or hostility with the serpent, is Mary. It was God who put this hostility between Mary and Satan (the serpent), and it is believed to be in the same likeness as Christ's hostility for the seed of the serpent. What exactly does all this mean? For Mary to be like Christ in His hostility for Satan forever, it is very possible to say that this passage implies Mary's lack of sin. What better way is there to be in total hostility with Satan than to be in God's constant grace? As the New Eve, Mary undid the "no" of the Old Testament Eve by saying, "yes" to carry Jesus.


Regarding the contradictions and schisms, those are man-made, not God-made.
 
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FireDragon76

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That doesn't follow. It's possible they are all flawed in some way. But I understand. Even though I acknowledge the possibility - almost a certainty - that Confessional Lutheranism is flawed in some way, I wouldn't be Lutheran if I thought there was something else that is closer to the truth.

I think that's typical of mature Lutherans. We resist making totalizing claims, and we are situated in the middle when it comes to ecclessiology, neither particularly high nor low.
 
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notreligus

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1 Corinthians 12:12 For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. 13 For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body-Jews or Greeks, slaves4 or free-and all were made to drink of one Spirit.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Ephesians 2:11 Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands- 12 remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. 17 And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. 22 In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.

All who have put their faith in the finished work of Christ are part of the Body of Christ, the one new man in Christ. It was part of God's plan that mankind be reconciled back to Him through the obedience of His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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The idea of competing Churches with different theologies and goals all being equally true or valid seems unreasonable and makes God out to be unclear on the nature of theology. If for instance the Orthodox Church is just as valid as any one Calvinist Church, why do they utterly repudiate the other, perhaps going so far as to say the other is heretical or maybe not even Christian?

There can be local Churches within the wider universal Church (which is determined by communion between the local Churches) but different denominations cannot all be true Churches.

The Apostles didn't operate that way and neither should we.
 
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