Can there be morality without God?

[Loudmouth]

Absolutely. Open the bible, read it, and you will know your eternal destiny.

The majority of the world disagrees.

If I told you to open the Koran in order to know your eternal destiny, would you be convinced?

 

[ron4shua]

If your Deity was my Elohim YAH , Spirit / Love you would have no need to ask .

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love
ləv/
noun
noun: love; plural noun: loves

1.
an intense feeling of deep affection.
"babies fill parents with intense feelings of love"
synonyms: deep affection, fondness, tenderness, warmth, intimacy, attachment, endearment; More
devotion, adoration, doting, idolization, worship;
passion, ardor, desire, lust, yearning, infatuation, besottedness
"his friendship with Helen grew into love"
compassion, care, caring, regard, solicitude, concern, friendliness, friendship, kindness, charity, goodwill, sympathy, kindliness, altruism, unselfishness, philanthropy, benevolence, fellow feeling, humanity
"their love for their fellow human beings"
relationship, love affair, romance, liaison, affair of the heart, amour
"their love will survive"
antonyms: hatred
a deep romantic or sexual attachment to someone.
"it was love at first sight"
synonyms: become infatuated with, give/lose one's heart to; More
informalfall for, be bowled over by, be swept off one's feet by, develop a crush on
"she didn't mean to fall in love with him"
infatuated with, besotted with, enamored of, smitten with, consumed with desire for;
captivated by, bewitched by, enthralled by, entranced by, moonstruck by;
devoted to, doting on;
informalmad/crazy/nuts/wild about
"he's in love with Gillian"
a personified figure of love, often represented as Cupid.
noun: Love
a great interest and pleasure in something.
"his love for football"
synonyms: liking of/for, enjoyment of, appreciation of/for, taste for, delight for/in, relish of, passion for, zeal for, appetite for, zest for, enthusiasm for, keenness for, fondness for, soft spot for, weakness for, bent for, proclivity for, inclination for, disposition for, partiality for, predilection for, penchant for
"her love for fashion"
affectionate greetings conveyed to someone on one's behalf.
synonyms: best wishes, regards, good wishes, greetings, kind/kindest regards
"my mother sends her love"
a formula for ending an affectionate letter.
"take care, lots of love, Judy"
2.
a person or thing that one loves.
"she was the love of his life"
synonyms: beloved, loved one, love of one's life, dear, dearest, dear one, darling, sweetheart, sweet, angel, honey; More
lover, inamorato, inamorata, amour, paramour
"he was her one true love"
Britishinformal
a friendly form of address.
"it's all right, love"
Britishinformal
used to express affectionate approval for someone.
noun: a love
"don't fret, there's a love"
3.
(in tennis, squash, and some other sports) a score of zero; nil.
"love fifteen"

verb
verb: love; 3rd person present: loves; past tense: loved; past participle: loved; gerund or present participle: loving
1.
feel a deep romantic or sexual attachment to (someone).
"do you love me?"
synonyms: care very much for, feel deep affection for, hold very dear, adore, think the world of, be devoted to, dote on, idolize, worship;
More

*********************************
Definition of Atheism in Late 20th Century Dictionaries: Dictionary Definitions of Atheism

" Encyclopedic Dictionary, 1957

atheism: Disbelief in the existence of God; the state of godlessness. Atheism: unbelief in or denial of God or any supernaturalism; to ancient Greek it meant denial and lack of recognition of state gods. In 18th cent. it was a protest against religious hypocrisy; in 19th cent. it was any system not recognizing the idea of a personal Creator or any one supreme being. It sees marter, not spirit, as sole universal principle; its history one of opposition. Term often loosely used in referring to agnostics who neither deny nor admit the existence of God, or in regard to others who disagree with current theological doctrine. "

********************************************

I believe most atheists are more religious to their deity " self EGO "

than professing Christians . Atheists have one holy being to worship . The poor Christian has a choice of 50,000 denominations & a consent war for which is correct & who's going to go to the mythical place translated " hell ".

I can't prove OR teach you anything & wouldn't try . In my holdings , it's not my job . The Spirit is in charge here , so simply , it's not in my job description . Me burden is to love you & everyone " as myself " . Hopefully not getting barbecued in long run . So , you win !

I'm envious of you atheists , in that you don't joust over the number of deity’s to worship & don't know you have one . Minimising any compilations .

Live long & prosper .

 

[Dave Ellis]

Absolutely. Open the bible, read it, and you will know your eternal destiny.

I have read it.... I didn't find it particularly convincing myself.

What about it do you find convincing? How do you verify the message behind it is real?

 

[only a sojourner]

Unfortunately I haven't the time to peruse all preceding comments. However without God there is no underlying, intrinsic morality. Moral systems are no more then personal or cultural creations or a combination of the two. Ethical systems vary between cultures and change within a culture over time. It was acceptable for adults to have sexual relations with youngsters in ancient Greece and today in the United States it is taboo. Gay marriage was unacceptable 30 years ago and today it is becoming acceptable.

Lest you think I am an amoralist, I need to explain myself. I tended toward atheism many years ago. It was through God's mercy and certain miraculous events, a kind of epiphany, that I came to be a Christian. Perhaps it might be possible to believe in God through observation of nature and reason, but an understanding of Jesus Christ as saviour comes through revelation and a personal relationship with Jesus. Debates between Christians and atheists can go on ad infinitum but it simply comes down to this.

 

[Dave Ellis]

Unfortunately I haven't the time to peruse all preceding comments. However without God there is no underlying, intrinsic morality. Moral systems are no more then personal or cultural creations or a combination of the two. Ethical systems vary between cultures and change within a culture over time. It was acceptable for adults to have sexual relations with youngsters in ancient Greece and today in the United States it is taboo. Gay marriage was unacceptable 30 years ago and today it is becoming acceptable.

Lest you think I am an amoralist, I need to explain myself. I tended toward atheism many years ago. It was through God's mercy and certain miraculous events, a kind of epiphany, that I came to be a Christian. Perhaps it might be possible to believe in God through observation of nature and reason, but an understanding of Jesus Christ as saviour comes through revelation and a personal relationship with Jesus. Debates between Christians and atheists can go on ad infinitum but it simply comes down to this.

I don't see how a god is required for a moral system in the slightest... can you back up your claim?

 

[only a sojourner]

Dave Ellis, God as creator of all that exists is also the author of all morality. You can decide to arbitrarily choose to disregard this but there will be a time of judgment for you. You may believe that when you die your brain will gradually cease to function and your conscious existence will end. However if you continue on this road you will be in for a rude awakening some day.

 

[Dave Ellis]

Dave Ellis, God as creator of all that exists is also the author of all morality.

By what method did he use to author morality? Was it just random pronouncements, or did he use some form of reason and logic to determine what is good and what is not?

You can decide to arbitrarily choose to disregard this but there will be a time of judgment for you. You may believe that when you die your brain will gradually cease to function and your conscious existence will end. However if you continue on this road you will be in for a rude awakening some day.

Thanks, however I don't require your empty threats. I'm as concerned about your "rude awakening" as you are concerned about what Allah will do to you after you die for not believing in him.

 

[SteveB28]

Dave Ellis, God as creator of all that exists is also the author of all morality.

What is the evidence of his 'authorship' please? And pray, don't tell us that it is the Bible! A greater collection of immoral atrocities could not be found in the library of de Sade!

 

[Eudaimonist]

I'm as concerned about your "rude awakening" as you are concerned about what Allah will do to you after you die for not believing in him.

You'd better die with a sword in your hand if you want to get into Valhalla. You are warned!


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[MissRowy]

Im a Christian but I believe that you don't need religion to have morality. There are examples of non Christians and also non Muslims who have been done immoral things. Thats my view but im open to what other people think

 

[stevevw]

"I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator."-- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 2

"What we have to fight for is the necessary security for the existence and increase of our race and people, the subsistence of its children and the maintenance of our racial stock unmixed, the freedom and independence of the Fatherland; so that our people may be enabled to fulfill the mission assigned to it by the Creator."-- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 8

"In short, the results of miscegenation are always the following: (a) The level of the superior race becomes lowered; (b) physical and mental degeneration sets in, thus leading slowly but steadily towards a progressive drying up of the vital sap. The act which brings about such a development is a sin against the will of the Eternal Creator. And as a sin this act will be avenged."-- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 11

He also said stuff like this.
Anyone who sees and paints a sky green and fields blue ought to be sterilized.

By the skillful and sustained use of propaganda, one can make a people see even heaven as hell or an extremely wretched life as paradise

Humanitarianism is the expression of stupidity and cowardice.

If you tell a big enough lie and tell it frequently enough, it will be believed.

It is not truth that matters, but victory.

Hitler also supported his henchmen to draw up plans to destroy Christianity and take control of the churches with his own version called the [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]'National Reich Church'. Here are some of their creeds.
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]"The National Church demands immediate cessation of the publishing and dissemination of the Bible in Germany...'"

[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]"On the altars there must be nothing but 'Mein Kampf' (to the German nation and therefore to God the most sacred book) and to the left of the altar a sword.

Not only did Hitler kill millions of the Jews which were Gods very own people but he also planned and persecuted Christians and many other groups.

So he was a good con artists when he claimed to be representing God. He knew that the christians were a threat because they held a prominent position in society. He also knew he had to appear that he was a devout man all the while planning and plotting to wipe the Christians out. So if anything Hitlers claim of using God as his good reason are easily exposed. he was a hypocrite and a dangerous crazy man who would use any method to get his way.
[/FONT]

 

[stevevw]

Then God used to be immoral, but isn't anymore?

Only trouble is God is the same yesterday, today and forever.
Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore you sons of Jacob are not consumed.

That isn't even close. The analogy is that no doctor can be found guilty of malpractice because anything a doctor does is good medicine by definition. That is the foundation of your argument. No matter what God does, you will label it as moral simply because God did it.

No I am saying a doctor will say he is good at medicine because that is what he trained in and therefore is good at it. He is not going to say he is bad at medicine is he. A mechanic is not going to say he is bad at fixing your car. They have every right to say they are good at what they do if they are good at it. As the bible says, dont hide your light under a bushel. So if God is righteous and Jesus had no sin and God gave the law and is the law giver then He is good at that. He is good at promoting things good. Thats what the whole bible is about.

Anyway besides all that we have a visual proof of Gods goodness and sinless nature in Jesus Christ which can go with the verbal claims. By looking at His life and His actions we can see that He did no wrong. Even when He was crucified He was innocent of no wrong and Pilot acknowledged this.

 

[ThinkForYourself]

He also said stuff like this.
Anyone who sees and paints a sky green and fields blue ought to be sterilized.

By the skillful and sustained use of propaganda, one can make a people see even heaven as hell or an extremely wretched life as paradise

Humanitarianism is the expression of stupidity and cowardice.

If you tell a big enough lie and tell it frequently enough, it will be believed.

It is not truth that matters, but victory.

Hitler also supported his henchmen to draw up plans to destroy Christianity and take control of the churches with his own version called the [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]'National Reich Church'. Here are some of their creeds.
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]"The National Church demands immediate cessation of the publishing and dissemination of the Bible in Germany...'"

[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]"On the altars there must be nothing but 'Mein Kampf' (to the German nation and therefore to God the most sacred book) and to the left of the altar a sword.

Not only did Hitler kill millions of the Jews which were Gods very own people but he also planned and persecuted Christians and many other groups.

So he was a good con artists when he claimed to be representing God. He knew that the christians were a threat because they held a prominent position in society. He also knew he had to appear that he was a devout man all the while planning and plotting to wipe the Christians out. So if anything Hitlers claim of using God as his good reason are easily exposed. he was a hypocrite and a dangerous crazy man who would use any method to get his way.
[/FONT]

In the end, the important thing to remember is that Hitler was born Catholic, and if he said to God "Sorry, my bad. Please forgive me. Thanks." Adolph Hitler will spend eternity in Heaven, looking down upon Hell and some wonderful people who dedicated their lives to helping their fellow man, but happened to have been born in the wrong place.

Steve, what do you think God is demonstrating here, Mercy or Justice?

 

[stevevw]

In the end, the important thing to remember is that Hitler was born Catholic, and if he said to God "Sorry, my bad. Please forgive me. Thanks." Adolph Hitler will spend eternity in Heaven, looking down upon Hell and some wonderful people who dedicated their lives to helping their fellow man, but happened to have been born in the wrong place.

Steve, what do you think God is demonstrating here, Mercy or Justice?

No he wont. Its not just about verbalizing some words like its a magic spell and then hey presto your saved. As Jesus said it is what is in a persons heart that counts. This shows that you dont understand salvation. That is like saying to someone I love you and you dont mean it. Or being sorry for something they done and they dont really mean it to get out of jail or punishment. Just being born a Catholic or having that stamped on your birth certificate doesn't make you any more Christian than an atheists or Muslim.

Good people will be rewarded for their good. It is all in what a person has in their heart that matters and God knows a persons heart. Its like what Jesus said to the Pharisees who were hypocrites. They would go around saying how they thanked God for how good they were and how they were not like the sinners. They mouthed the words but inside they were full of deceit. If a person does what Jesus said which was to help the needy when they were thirsty and love others as you love yourself then they are worthy of being saved irregardless of who they are and where they are from.

 

[Loudmouth]

Only trouble is God is the same yesterday, today and forever.

Then God is still the same God who ordered genocide?

Is ordering genocide immoral, or is it only moral if God does it?

No I am saying a doctor will say he is good at medicine because that is what he trained in and therefore is good at it.

During a medical malpractice trial, is the case dismissed if the doctor gets on the stand and says, "I am good at medicine and made no mistakes"?

He is not going to say he is bad at medicine is he. A mechanic is not going to say he is bad at fixing your car. They have every right to say they are good at what they do if they are good at it.

By proclaming themselves good at something, does that mean that they can not be bad at that something? Can a mechanic completely ruin your engine and then proclaim that he is a good mechanic? Can a surgeon needlessly kill thousands of patients a year and proclaim that he is good at surgery?

Anyway besides all that we have a visual proof of Gods goodness and sinless nature in Jesus Christ which can go with the verbal claims. By looking at His life and His actions we can see that He did no wrong. Even when He was crucified He was innocent of no wrong and Pilot acknowledged this.

How can you be sinless when you command someone to commit genocide?

 

[stevevw]

Then God is still the same God who ordered genocide?

Is ordering genocide immoral, or is it only moral if God does it?

So your saying Jesus ordered Genocide. Does Jesus seem like He would do that. Did he ever give you that impression. If Jesus is the same God then there is some inconsistency here with God committing genocide. So have you ever considered that maybe you are wrong in interpreting what God did as genocide.

During a medical malpractice trial, is the case dismissed if the doctor gets on the stand and says, "I am good at medicine and made no mistakes"?

No because its a medical malpractice trial so there is a breach of the doctors code of conduct. But does a good doctor say hes bad if he is good at what he does. I mean you hear it all the time that people promote themselves. We are the best, we are good at fixing your car.

By proclaming themselves good at something, does that mean that they can not be bad at that something? Can a mechanic completely ruin your engine and then proclaim that he is a good mechanic? Can a surgeon needlessly kill thousands of patients a year and proclaim that he is good at surgery?

The point is should a person who is good at something have the right to claim they are good. As you said that God is claiming to be good because He says He is good. If he is good he has every right to claim that just like someone who is good at cooking.

How can you be sinless when you command someone to commit genocide?

Because you are interpreting what God did as genocide. You are now taking the position as judge. Who said you were the truth holder of what is right and wrong. Who said you know all that was involved in that situation with God and those times. You are claiming to know a lot and to be in a position to be all knowing like God Himself.

 

[ThinkForYourself]

No he wont. Its not just about verbalizing some words like its a magic spell and then hey presto your saved. As Jesus said it is what is in a persons heart that counts. This shows that you dont understand salvation. That is like saying to someone I love you and you dont mean it. Or being sorry for something they done and they dont really mean it to get out of jail or punishment. Just being born a Catholic or having that stamped on your birth certificate doesn't make you any more Christian than an atheists or Muslim.

The bible specifically states that the path to heaven is not through works, but through belief.

If Hitler was still a Catholic when he died, then he believed in Christ. If he sincerely asked for forgiveness, he was forgiven and goes to Heaven.

Good Hindus, who spent their lives helping their fellow man, go to Hell because they were born in the wrong place and don't believe in Christ.

Where am I wrong?

 

[Loudmouth]

So your saying Jesus ordered Genocide.

You are the one saying that, not me. You are the one saying that Jesus is the God of the Old Testament, and the God of the Old Testament ordered genocide.

No because its a medical malpractice trial so there is a breach of the doctors code of conduct. But does a good doctor say hes bad if he is good at what he does. I mean you hear it all the time that people promote themselves. We are the best, we are good at fixing your car.

Do bad doctors claim they are good doctors? Yep, they sure do.

Do bad mechanics claim they are good mechanics? Yep, they sure do.

The point is should a person who is good at something have the right to claim they are good.

That is not the point. The point is that someone is not automatically good just because they say they are.

Because you are interpreting what God did as genocide.

How can it be interpretted any other way?

"1 Samuel
15:2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.
(15:2-3) "Thus saith the LORD of hosts ... slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass."
God orders Saul to kill all of the Amalekites: men, women, infants, sucklings, ox, sheep, camels, and asses. Why? Because God remembers what Amalek did hundreds of years ago.
To kill or not to kill
Is God merciful?
What the Bible says about genocide, family values, and God
God's 65th Killing
15:3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass."

You are now taking the position as judge. Who said you were the truth holder of what is right and wrong. Who said you know all that was involved in that situation with God and those times. You are claiming to know a lot and to be in a position to be all knowing like God Himself.

If you aren't allowed to judge what God does, then how can you say that God is moral?

 

[ethicsguy]

"Can there be morality without God?"
Easy answer here.
Since you enjoy reviewing history in your topic ~ consider this.
Look into the history of Asia. You will find that one of the most ethical societies in history has been the culture of Confucianists. And, they were one of the largest populations on earth. They were humanists not Christians. Don't believe it cause I say it, just look it up for yourself.

 

[only a sojourner]

Some questions for the atheists.

Why is it wrong to murder someone in cold blood if it furthers your own ends and you can get away with it? Why is it wrong to be a rich indusrialist who knowingly exploits workers if doing so enhances your personal wealth, allows you to live more comfortably and you can get away with it. Many have done so throughout history. Why not be a "sociopath" if you can get away with it? Is humanism nothing more then a vestige of archaic moral systems like Christianity because it presumes some kind of underlying altruistic morality?

Are we altruistic because it is in our DNA and our brain physiology, as a result of natural selection, because doing so enhanced the survival of our offspring? Is altruism something we share with other mammals, particularly primates and is this why many atheists are humanists?

Why not Neitzsche who inspired Adolph Hitler? I'm sure there must be some out there who like Ayn Rand and her capitalist Objectivism, especially those who live in the US? Or Sartre and his neo-Marxism? There are many varieties of atheism.

My point is that in atheism there are no moral parameters. You are allowed to create any morality that appeals to you. You are exposed to the chill of the empty universe.