Can there be morality without God?

[PapaBillyJr2]

Why are you arguing about something that both God and Job were well pleased with? All stories have an ending. This one has a great one. Besides, if you don't believe in God, why would this even bother you, since you don't believe it even happened anyway?

 

[Loudmouth]

Why are you arguing about something that both God and Job were well pleased with? All stories have an ending. This one has a great one. Besides, if you don't believe in God, why would this even bother you, since you don't believe it even happened anyway?

What bothers us is that other people think it is real, and claim to base their morality on it. It is kind of creepy to think that people consider genocide and killing families to be moral acts.

 

[ThinkForYourself]

... Plus, my eternal destination is better than the other one that many will follow.

Actually, there are thousands of different Gods, and tens of thousands of denominations for Christianity alone. Your odds of having picked the right faith/denomination are long to say the least.

I, on the other hand, am unaffiliated, and I haven't done what Gods hate the most: worshiping other gods. So no matter the God, I have a good chance of getting in to heaven through works. You have to pray your long shot odds, literally maybe 100,000 to one, come through.

But believe me, when I'm in heaven, I won't gloat when I look down at you.

 

[Jayson Alexander]

Without God people are left to decide what is wrong or right. That sounds great to many people because they know what is wrong and right. Oddly, people seldom agree on this. Furthermore, when people gain power over others their view of right and wrong tends to change to right being whatever protects their power or grants them more power. Historical cases of this are:

Ukraine Famine | United Human Rights Council

and

Chronology of Mass Killings during the Chinese Cultural Revolution (1966-1976) - Online Encyclopedia of Mass Violence

Religious death tolls happen, but they tend to be relatively small and with good reason, ie crusades to kick out foreign invaders from Europe or the inquisition to root out subversive elements of society ie Kabbalists who were accused of sacrificing Christian children.

Who decides what Bible passages to omit and which to follow?

Obviously morality is a sociological norm.

We still don't just kill people who are caught in taboo sex acts anymore.

And Murder is wrong everywhere.

 

[PapaBillyJr2]

Where did you get that we omit things from the Bible?

 

[Jayson Alexander]

Where did you get that we omit things from the Bible?

I never said you in particular but some people eat shellfish and get tattoos even though it says not to.

Number 5:11-31 shows a holy abortion ritual but many consider that a sin today.

People do decide as a society what the laws are.

 

[stevevw]

According you, this excuses the worst mass murders in history, because not one of them went around "killing for no good reason, without any control."

What was Hitlers good reason for killing. What about Bin Laden's good reason. Did poll Pot have any good reasons. The mass murderers around the world killed indiscriminately. They had no judgement about what was right and what was wrong. They killed their own right hand men half the time when things didn't go right. They killed for inconsistent reasons and never let any of those they considered bad go free. They constantly killed innocent people who had done absolutely nothing wrong.

Just like the Jews with Hitler. Those Jews hadn't sacrificed their babies of prostituted themselves and tried to lure others into sexual immorality. They hadn't attacked anyone and tried to destroy them or make others sin. They were just minding their own business. That is the one consistent thing with these evil dictators they consistently kill innocent people and never let them off. They nearly always end up killing themselves or running away and hiding because they know they have done wrong.

But you and many others will say that the US and the coalition of the willing had good reason for killing in the Iraqi and Afghanistan wars. Many will say we had good reason for killing the Hitler and the Germans or dropping a bomb on Japan and killing millions. Many will say we were measured. We targeted the response and it had an outcome. We felt the actions were justified because it was stopping an evil that could have spread and affected many others. We didn't go around bombing everyone like a mad man and we were controlled in our actions.

So we can allow man kind to extract his judgement but then some will want to condemn God for doing the same and stand in judgement of him thinking they know better. Like they are the holders of true morality. God is much more worthy to judge as He is all knowing. Man is fallible and makes mistakes. Yet you are quite willing to allow him the benefit of the doubt.

 

[stevevw]

We do see that, in the Old Testament. Jesus is God, is he not?

Jesus is God in the flesh. So we only see Jesus when He was on earth living His life. If you want to use that logic then once again we should see Jesus also doing the same thing in the new testament. But we dont. And out of all the bible the most clearest example of what we see in God is with Jesus because He was walking the earth like a man in the flesh. Not up in the sky, not a voice in the wilderness, not a burning bush but a man walking the earth like you or men in front of many so they could touch Him and speak to Him. This is the best way we can see God. So you have actually got it backwards. Instead of trying to inject Jesus back into the old testament to see God. Take God from the old testament into Jesus of the new testament to know God.

The problem is that your argument boils down to, "God is moral, therefore anything God commands is moral". It is a circular argument, and a very dangerous one at that.

Well how else would a moral person be or a good person be but good and moral. Thats like saying a doctor says hes good at medicine becuase hes good at medicine. Hes not going to be bad at medicine is he. Hes good at medicine because hes a doctor. That is exactly what we would expect. Its not circular its just the way things are. Its just the truth. But more than that just like we can see a doctor perform to know that he is a doctor. We can see Gods example in Jesus and know His life and teachings to see that He is moral and good in the new testament.

 

[Loudmouth]

What was Hitlers good reason for killing.

"I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator."-- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 2

"What we have to fight for is the necessary security for the existence and increase of our race and people, the subsistence of its children and the maintenance of our racial stock unmixed, the freedom and independence of the Fatherland; so that our people may be enabled to fulfill the mission assigned to it by the Creator."-- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 8

"In short, the results of miscegenation are always the following: (a) The level of the superior race becomes lowered; (b) physical and mental degeneration sets in, thus leading slowly but steadily towards a progressive drying up of the vital sap. The act which brings about such a development is a sin against the will of the Eternal Creator. And as a sin this act will be avenged."-- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 11

 

[Loudmouth]

Jesus is God in the flesh. So we only see Jesus when He was on earth living His life. If you want to use that logic then once again we should see Jesus also doing the same thing in the new testament. But we dont.

Then God used to be immoral, but isn't anymore?

Well how else would a moral person be or a good person be but good and moral. Thats like saying a doctor says hes good at medicine becuase hes good at medicine.

That isn't even close. The analogy is that no doctor can be found guilty of malpractice because anything a doctor does is good medicine by definition. That is the foundation of your argument. No matter what God does, you will label it as moral simply because God did it.

 

[PapaBillyJr2]

All things happen for God's Glory, even if we can't understand it. Hitler is a good example of someone who is not right with God, that Satan can take total advantage of. The entire Old Testament is about the Jews falling away from God, then getting back on track. When they fell away, they were punished. When they came back, they were rewarded. They still today reject their Messiah as being Jesus. The whole book of Revelation is about what has to be done to get them to see that Jesus is their Messiah. They will suffer immensely before His coming for their unbelief. All unbelief has, and will be punished. Ignorance of that law is no excuse.

 

[Loudmouth]

All things happen for God's Glory, even if we can't understand it.

This is what I am talking about. No matter what God does, people will claim that it is moral.

 

[ThinkForYourself]

Hitler is a good example of someone who is not right with God, ...

AFAIK, all Hitler had to do was say, "Sorry Jesus, my bad, I got carried away. Please forgive me. Thanks." And he is in heaven.

Or are you saying Hitler can't be saved?

 

[PapaBillyJr2]

Absolutely not. But if he died first, it would be to late. The odds of that happening though would be rare, since I've read that he may have been gay. He even raped his own soldiers. And as we can see in today's world, gays are to proud to repent.

 

[ron4shua]

Can there be morality without God?

NO !

 

[PapaBillyJr2]

Proof in the pudding. If there was no God, where would morality come from, and who would say what is right or wrong? Thank you God for clarifying all this for us, because we cannot.

 

[ThinkForYourself]

Absolutely not. But if he died first, it would be to late. The odds of that happening though would be rare, since I've read that he may have been gay. He even raped his own soldiers. And as we can see in today's world, gays are to proud to repent.

Hitler was a Catholic, so I would think it likely.

If you get to heaven, you might very well get to hang around with Hitler.

 

[RuthD]

In the study of psychology there are the levels of morality by Kolberg.

 

[Loudmouth]

Can there be morality without God?

NO !

Why not?

 

[Loudmouth]

Proof in the pudding. If there was no God, where would morality come from, and who would say what is right or wrong? Thank you God for clarifying all this for us, because we cannot.

It would come from the same place that the morality in the Bible came from. It would come from us. We are the ones who say what is right and wrong.