Can their be a Reformed Pentecostal?

[lmnop9876]

The differences between Hymns and Praise music:
​

An old farmer went to the city one weekend and attended the big city church. He came home and his wife asked him how it was. "Well," said the farmer, "It was good. They did something different, however. They sang praise choruses instead of hymns."

"Praise choruses," said his wife, "What are those?"

"Oh, they're okay. They're sort of like hymns, only different," said the farmer.

"Well, what's the difference?" asked his wife.

The farmer said, "Well, it's like this - If I were to say to you: Martha, the cows are in the corn,' well, that would be a hymn. If, on the other hand, I were to say to you:

Martha Martha, Martha, Oh, Martha, MARTHA, MARTHA,
the cows, the big cows, the brown cows, the black cows,
the white cows, the black and white cows,
the COWS, COWS, COWS are in the corn,
are in the corn, are in the corn, are in the corn,
the CORN, CORN, CORN,
​

then, if I were to repeat the whole thing two or three times, well that would be a praise chorus."


As luck would have it, the exact same Sunday a young, new Christian from the city church attended the small town church. He came home and his wife asked him how it was. "Well," said the young man, "It was good. They did something different, however. They sang hymns instead of regular songs."

"Hymns," said his wife, "What are those?"

"Oh, they're okay. They're sort of like regular songs, only different," said the young man.

"Well, what's the difference?" asked his wife.

The young man said, "Well it's like this - If I were to say to you, Martha, the cows are in the corn,' well, that would be a regular song. If, on the other hand, I were to say to you:

Oh Martha, dear Martha, hear thou my cry
Inclines thine ear to the words of my mouth.
Turn thou thy whole wondrous ear by and by
To the righteous, inimitable, glorious truth.
For the way of the animals who can explain
There in their heads is no shadow of sense,
Hearkenest they in God's sun or his rain
Unless from the mild, tempting corn they are fenced.
Yea those cows in glad bovine, rebellious delight,
Have broke free their shackles, their warm pens eschewed.
Then goaded by minions of darkness and night
They all my mild Chilliwack sweet corn have chewed.
So look to that bright shining day by and by,
Where all foul corruptions of earth are reborn.
Where no vicious animal makes my soul cry
And I no longer see those foul cows in the corn.
​

Then, if I were to do only verses one, three and four and do a key change on
the last verse, well that would be a hymn."

I've heard something like that before!

what do you consider important to worship?

I know the question wasn't directed at me, but thought I'd answer anyway:
1. Singing with grace in the heart, understanding what you're singing, singing to glorify God, and singing to edify others.
2. Heart-felt prayers which involve the whole congregation
3. Reading and faithful preaching of God's Word.
4. Thankfully remembering Christ's death and resurrection in the Eucharist.

 

[cygnusx1]

can Sola Scriptura and ongoing Prophecy be compatible , the Mormons think so ........... I don't , and that is the main reason I don't accept the hybrid "Pentecostal Reformed"

 

[Truly Blessed]

the Mormons think so ........... I don't

Oh, did we have to go there . Not that I have issues or anything like becoming your own god .

 

[AndOne]

Most pentecostals don't.

Actually - check the AoG statement of faith - it states that the baptism of the HS is only evidenced by speaking in tongues. A lot of AoG member don't realize its there - but it is.

 

[Jon_]

can Sola Scriptura and ongoing Prophecy be compatible , the Mormons think so ........... I don't , and that is the main reason I don't accept the hybrid "Pentecostal Reformed"

Agreed.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[bertie]

Hi, i wonder if the situation is such that the Holy Spirit is reluctant to fill those who lack faith except by need to keep the plan in motion.The church fathers were eye witnesses to the workings of the Holy Spirit,thus required little actual "faith"
The problem being, that over time these men and women became a minority in the congregation and passed on ,they left behind a growing and widespread gospel to be practised by many who had not the same direct experience as they.
we lost the ablility to call on the power of the spirit by loss of the power of our faith.Sort of a great falling away....because we did not fully realize that the gifts are literal.Now we are in the time when there is darkness and the Holy Spirit requires faith power from our end to make the connection work and the power flow through.?

I think the Holy Spirit is apprachable by all and is the part of God that is aware of every sparrows fall....
I think the reason that we dont see healing and tounges and prophecy is a matter of the quality of our faith./acceptance of Christ as the king and savior of this world.(scientific education being the stumbler)
If you believe in these gifts of the spirit,then the chances are far better to experience them,than if you had no faith at all.(there are exceptions too im sure.)
What we are waiting for( and some say experiencing ) is the promised outpouring of the Holy Spirit to preceed the end times.(WHEN WE SEE THIS FULLY BLOOM, IT WILL BE UNMISTAKABLE.)Till then we must grow our faith"the hard way" that is the only way of increasing the ability to let the Holy Spirit work through us.
As God answers our prayer,and touches our lives through the power of the Spirit. we will gain closer communion with Him and become tuned to his will.
Like a violin hanging on the wall sympathetically humming to a sweet note struck on another instrument.

 

[Jon_]

Hi, i wonder if the situation is such that the Holy Spirit is reluctant to fill those who lack faith except by need to keep the plan in motion.The church fathers were eye witnesses to the workings of the Holy Spirit,thus required little actual "faith" The problem being, that over time these men and women became a minority in the congregation and passed on ,they left behind a growing and widespread gospel to be practised by many who had not the same direct experience as they. we lost the ablility to call on the power of the spirit by loss of the power of our faith.Sort of a great falling way....because we did not fully realize that the gifts are literal.Now we are in the time when there is darkness and the Holy Spirit requires faith power from our end to make the connection work and the power flow through.?

This cannot be correct because the premise of your argument is based on the veracity of our faith as if it were something that we caused and nutured ourself. Moveover, it seems that you are implying our faith is what causes the work of the Spirit, which is antithetical to Scripture, which say the Spirit listeth about and we know not his work (Jn. 3:3) and that gifts are by divine prerogative (1 Cor. 12:28-30). So, your argument cannot be sound because it makes two false assumptions.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[Jon_]

This cannot be correct because the premise of your argument is based on the veracity of our faith as if it were something that we caused and nutured ourself. Moveover, it seems that you are implying our faith is what causes the work of the Spirit, which is antithetical to Scripture, which say the Spirit listeth about and we know not his work (Jn. 3:3) and that gifts are by divine prerogative (1 Cor. 12:28-30). So, your argument cannot be sound because it makes two false assumptions.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

Strike that. At least three (and probably more) false assumptions. Your argument also begs the question. How do you know that our faith isn't actually greater in this age and because our faith is so great we don't need gifts of the Holy Spirit to inspire us to faith?

There are more things wrong with your argument, but these three alone cripple it.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[bertie]

Let me try to clearify,not by works,but dependant upon your stepping off the platform and onto the wire.?
We pray for the healing of the members of our congregation every week.People we know and love.Yet i sense that when we are doing so, nobody expects that the Holy Spirit will do much for the patient till the anti-biotics kick in..get it?
When Jesus said to the sick guys (several) "BY YOUR FAITH" may it be unto you."He said it that way for a reason,it was for us.We are the ones that have been told miracles were impossible from birth!
There is another"blessed is he that NOT SEEING still believes."that was for us!
The old guys that were close to the light had no need of the kind of faith that is required of us,(YES THEY HAD FAITH) they were eye witnesses.They would say to Jesus "SHOW US A SIGN"They were raised to believe miracles were not only possible (which we reluctantly admit)but that they actyally haoppened(which we are far more skeptical of)we are programmed that way.we cant help that niggling thought" wheres the catch"?)
Am i making some sense?
If we wish to obtain the gifts,then we are obliged to make our temples clean enough to be vessels for those gifts.I dont suggest that we initiate the Holy spirits actions at all by our labours.But i belives we have a big part in letting the Spirit move in our lives.We have to reach out to God in/earnest to have a life of unity with Him.I think that the idea that the Holy Spirit has long ceased its fellowship and interaction with us on a real day to day basis is covered under the end times warning about proclaiming the Holy Spirit but denying its power?something like that anyway.Jesus said the Holy Spirit was to be our comforter and our guide to all truth.We of all the christians in history,surely must be getting to be the ones most in need of just that.is that too simplistic?

 

[Jon_]

Let me try to clearify,not by works,but dependant upon your stepping off the platform and onto the wire.?
We pray for the healing of the members of our congregation every week.People we know and love.Yet i sense that when we are doing so, nobody expects that the Holy Spirit will do much for the patient till the anti-biotics kick in..get it?
When Jesus said to the sick guys (several) "BY YOUR FAITH" may it be unto you."He said it that way for a reason,it was for us.We are the ones that have been told miracles were impossible from birth!
There is another"blessed is he that NOT SEEING still believes."that was for us!
The old guys that were close to the light had no need of the kind of faith that is required of us,(YES THEY HAD FAITH) they were eye witnesses.They would say to Jesus "SHOW US A SIGN"They were raised to believe miracles were not only possible (which we reluctantly admit)but that they actyally haoppened(which we are far more skeptical of)we are programmed that way.we cant help that niggling thought" wheres the catch"?)
Am i making some sense?

I'm sorry, but no.

If we wish to obtain the gifts,then we are obliged to make our temples clean enough to be vessels for those gifts.

But, how do you know that? And what is "clean enough"?

I dont suggest that we initiate the Holy spirits actions at all by our labours.But i belives we have a big part in letting the Spirit move in our lives.We have to reach out to God in/earnest to have a life of unity with Him.I think that the idea that the Holy Spirit has long ceased its fellowship and interaction with us on a real day to day basis is covered under the end times warning about proclaiming the Holy Spirit but denying its power?something like that anyway.Jesus said the Holy Spirit was to be our comforter and our guide to all truth.We of all the christians in history,surely must be getting to be the ones most in need of just that.is that too simplistic?

I appreciate that you are trying to encourage others to have faith and to allow the Spirit to work in their lives, but, and I say this with love and respect, you really don't know what you're talking about. Please, I implore you, read John Owen's work on the Holy Spirit, Pneumatologia. You can download it free of charge here: http://www.ccel.org/ccel/owen/pneum.html. John Owen was one of the greatest (if not the greatest) of the Puritan theologians and his work on the Holy Spirit is positively masterful. You will find much profit and understanding by consulting his exposition of the Person of the Holy Spirit from the Scriptures.

I must tell you that what you have said so far of the Spirit is so far from what the Scripture says that it sounds like you just made it all up. I would encourage you to search the Scriptures and consult with the many teachers that have written about the Holy Spirit. In any case, please do not repeat what you have told me to other believers. It is wrong, and I would hate to see others misled by what you believe.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[bertie]

so what you say is that faith cannot be increased no matter what i do?That the Holy spirit has ceased to have anything to do with us?That we cannot influence the Spirit to interact with us?and that Godly results are never a measure of the faith of the individuals involved in any given situation?

 

[Jon_]

so what you say is that faith cannot be increased no matter what i do?

Not at all, for it is written, "Lord increase our faith" (Luke 17:5).

That the Holy spirit has ceased to have anything to do with us?

Not at all, for which Person of the Trinity is active in regeneration? (Titus 3:5). And which Person of the Trinity illumines our minds that we might receive the truth of the Scriptures? And who is it that persuades us of our faith and election? The Holy Spirit is ever present and working in the lives and hearts of men, just not in the way or by the method that you believe he is.

That we cannot influence the Spirit to interact with us?

How might a mere man influence God Almighty? How might man who is a worm compel the God of the ages to act? Who will stay the hand of God? Who will let him work? Therefore, God will work and he will do so at his good pleasure according to his sovereign will.

and that Godly results are never a measure of the faith of the individuals involved in any given situation?

The better question is whence comes the faith that is the instrument of "Godly results"? The answer is from God (Ephesians 2:8).

I encourage you to read John Owen's Pneumatologia.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[bertie]

We are then not accomplishing anything through prayer?What asbout ask and ye shall reciev IF ye ask in faith in my name?There was one time when a man has wrestled with God.There are instances where men have spoke up to God and bargained as it were, with God.How can it be said that we have no part in the wayGod works?

 

[Jon_]

We are then not accomplishing anything through prayer?

Just the opposite. We are being obedient to the command of God that we should "pray without ceasing." But it is not our prayers that cause God to act, but because God acts that we pray. We do not pray because we doubt God will act, we pray because we know he will. He is faithful and sovereign and we know that anything we ask in his name according to his will he will do. That is why we pray. We pray to be obedient and faithful to his commands and desires.

What asbout ask and ye shall reciev IF ye ask in faith in my name?

Quite true! Because true faith in God seeks only his will. It is also written, "The prayer of the righteous man availeth much" (James 5:16). This too is true. It avails much because the prayers of the righteous are prayers that God fulfill all counsel and act according to his sovereign plan for our lives. Prayer is not about us, it is about God.

There was one time when a man has wrestled with God.There are instances where men have spoke up to God and bargained as it were, with God.How can it be said that we have no part in the wayGod works?

We are instruments of God's work. God has chosen to work through us because it seemed good in his eyes. He loves his children and is faithful in meeting our every need. Our every step is ordered by him. As it is written in Proverbs:

The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD. (16:1)

The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the LORD. (16:33)

Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way? (20:24)

The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will. (21:1)
​

Our God is sovereign! Praise God for his sovereign grace! Praise him that he orders the steps of the good man (Psalm 37:23). Our God is in heaven and there he reigns, doing all his desire, for it seemed good in his sight (Psalm 115:3, Matthew 11:26).

Therefore, my friend, put your trust in God, for he alone is worthy of praise and worship, and to be feared and trusted. "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge" (Proverbs 1:7) and God "hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue," (2 Peter 1:3) and "taste and see that the LORD is good: blessed is the man that trusteth in him" (Psalm 34:8).

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[Calvinist Dark Lord]

Thoughts?

Good Evening,

If by Pentacostal, you mean Assemblies of God (a fine denomination BTW,), no.

The AOG and reformed Theology are definately at odds with one another.

EXAMPLE:

The AOG teaches that the "Baptism of the Holy Spirit" is a second work of Grace (in time) that is evidenced by speaking in tongues.

My own small Presbyterian denomination, (which is NOT cessationalist, Jon ) believes that the "baptism of the Holy Spirit is an act of God Whereby we are baptised into Christ." It happens at the moment of conversion.

That said, it could be called a second work of grace in that it is distinct from other works of grace, such as regeneration, but there is no distinction of time.

We certainly do not believe that the baptism of the Holy Spirit MUST be accompanied by speaking in tongues.

EXAMPLE 2:

The Assemblies of God teach that one can "fall away from grace". Calvinism (or Reformed Theology) rejects that idea.

EXAMPLE 3:

The Assemblies of God rejects the Reformed idea that Regeneration preceeds belief/salvation.

As for cessationalism, i must respectfully disagree with my colleague Jon, There is no requirement that one MUST be cessationalist. It is however, the "majourity report" among Reformed Theologians.

 

[Jon_]

My own small Presbyterian denomination, (which is NOT cessationalist, Jon )

Heresy!

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon