Can the saints in heaven here us?

[bbbbbbb]

Those in heaven are not bound by time. Time no longer exists.

How do we know that? If they are not bound by time, but we exist in a world of time then it would stand to reason that they have no relationship with this other reality, even as we do not exist apart from time.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Revelation 5:13

And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Right. John heard them. That verse says absolutely nothing about anyone or anything hearing people praying on earth.

 

[Panevino]

Right. John heard them. That verse says absolutely nothing about anyone or anything hearing people praying on earth.

John is mortal (for lack of a better word) at that point.
He is able to hear simultaneously those in heaven and those on earth.
He hears them all praying.

Spirits of just men made perfect (heb12:23) / saints in light (col1:12) ....equal unto the angels (luke 20:36) are just as able to also as John. Demonstrated further in rev 5:8, 8:3-4

Note the prayers of the saints offered in 8:3-4, 13 occurs as a single event of heavenly prayer with John hearing all praying on heaven and earth. The elders with the vials are participating in this.

Revelation 5:8-13

And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.


And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.


And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

 

[bbbbbbb]

John is mortal (for lack of a better word) at that point.
He is able to hear simultaneously those in heaven and those on earth.
He hears them all praying.

Spirits of just men made perfect (heb12:23) / saints in light (col1:12) ....equal unto the angels (luke 20:36) are just as able to also as John. Demonstrated further in rev 5:8, 8:3-4

Note the prayers of the saints offered in 8:3-4, 13 occurs as a single event of heavenly prayer with John hearing all praying on heaven and earth. The elders with the vials are participating in this.

Revelation 5:8-13

And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Right. Once again we know that John heard these things and have absolutely nothing about saints in heaven hearing things on earth. How John was taken to heaven is a mystery, as was Paul's heavenly journey (II Corinthians 12:1-6).

One thing is absolutely certain, though. It is sheer speculation to think that anyone in heaven other than the Triune God is omnipresent or omniscient.

 

[Panevino]

Right. Once again we know that John heard these things and have absolutely nothing about saints in heaven hearing things on earth. How John was taken to heaven is a mystery, as was Paul's heavenly journey (II Corinthians 12:1-6).

One thing is absolutely certain, though. It is sheer speculation to think that anyone in heaven other than the Triune God is omnipresent or omniscient.

So you agree John can hear both those on earth and heaven praying.(how do you think that was possible? A mystery I agree but obviously an ability made possible by God)
But you say 'spirits of just men made perfect'/ ' saints in light' can't.
Would you be able to conceed that it may be at least possible that God could grant the same ability as He did for John?

 

[mmksparbud]

Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

John was given VISIONS----He saw all sorts of creatures. Visions are used to represent something.
Rev 5:4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
Rev 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

In a vision John was shown a book that no one could open, but then Jesus Himself opened it

Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

Because Jesus was able to open the book----all creatures were then praising Him for opening it. Everything praised Him, including the creatures under the sea.

Psa_115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

KJV Dictionary Definition: vision
vision
VI'SION, n. s as z. L. visio, from video, visus.

1. The act of seeing external objects; actual sight.

Faith here is turned into vision there.

2. The faculty of seeing; sight. Vision is far more perfect and acute in some animals than in man.

3. Something imagined to be seen, though not real; a phantom; a specter.

No dreams, but visions strange.

4. In Scripture, a revelation from God; an appearance or exhibition of something supernaturally presented to the minds of the prophets, by which they were informed of future events. Such were the visions of Isaiah, of Amos, of Ezekiel, &c.

5. Something imaginary; the production of fancy.

6. Any thing which is the object of sight.

visional
VI'SIONAL, a. Pertaining to a vision
http://av1611.com/kjbp/kjv-dictionary/vision.html

Visions are given while awake, as opposed to dreams which are given when asleep. They are images used to explain concepts. Visions of animals in Daniel represented kingdoms.

 

[prodromos]

Lol... Well, I'm not against the realization of God and heaven. Afterall, we die and our souls leave this 3 dimentional world. Where else could they go but to a multi-dimentional heaven?

...To me, it sort of validates someplace greater than here. The place where the strings of String Theory originate - heaven.

you still haven't caught the gist of my little dig there. The word you are after is "dimension", with an "s", not a "t"

 

[bbbbbbb]

you still haven't caught the gist of my little dig there. The word you are after is "dimension", with an "s", not a "t"

I rather doubt that spelling was emphasized in his edukation.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

John was given VISIONS----He saw all sorts of creatures. Visions are used to represent something.
Rev 5:4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
Rev 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

In a vision John was shown a book that no one could open, but then Jesus Himself opened it

Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

Because Jesus was able to open the book----all creatures were then praising Him for opening it. Everything praised Him, including the creatures under the sea.

Psa_115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

KJV Dictionary Definition: vision
vision
VI'SION, n. s as z. L. visio, from video, visus.

1. The act of seeing external objects; actual sight.

Faith here is turned into vision there.

2. The faculty of seeing; sight. Vision is far more perfect and acute in some animals than in man.

3. Something imagined to be seen, though not real; a phantom; a specter.

No dreams, but visions strange.

4. In Scripture, a revelation from God; an appearance or exhibition of something supernaturally presented to the minds of the prophets, by which they were informed of future events. Such were the visions of Isaiah, of Amos, of Ezekiel, &c.

5. Something imaginary; the production of fancy.

6. Any thing which is the object of sight.

visional
VI'SIONAL, a. Pertaining to a vision
http://av1611.com/kjbp/kjv-dictionary/vision.html

Visions are given while awake, as opposed to dreams which are given when asleep. They are images used to explain concepts. Visions of animals in Daniel represented kingdoms.

Good point.

 

[prodromos]

I rather doubt that spelling was emphasized in his edukation.

I won the creative spelling award in high school

 

[JoeP222w]

Ecclesiastes 9:6
Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

Above is used to say the dead has nothing to do with anything done in this life by others, thus they can not hear us.

Hebrews 12, cloud of witnesses is used to say those in heaven can hear us. However, this text refers to the testimonies, witness of those in Hebrews 11 when read in context.

You pretty much got it.

 

[bbbbbbb]

So you agree John can hear both those on earth and heaven praying.(how do you think that was possible? A mystery I agree but obviously an ability made possible by God)
But you say 'spirits of just men made perfect'/ ' saints in light' can't.
Would you be able to conceed that it may be at least possible that God could grant the same ability as He did for John?

As has been pointed out, this was a vision given to John. There is no indication that he was hearing anyone on earth during his vision.

God can do anything. He could rain chocolate milkshakes on you if He wanted, couldn't He?

 

[Panevino]

As has been pointed out, this was a vision given to John. There is no indication that he was hearing anyone on earth during his vision.,

rev5:13 ".... heard I..."

God can do anything. He could rain chocolate milkshakes on you if He wanted, couldn't He?

Hmm
Numbers 22:28

And the Lord opened the mouth of the ass, and she said unto Balaam, What have I done unto thee, that thou hast smitten me these three times?

 

[Panevino]

You pretty much got it.

If your interested, consider My previous response

 

[bbbbbbb]

rev5:13 ".... heard I..."

Hmm
Numbers 22:28

And the Lord opened the mouth of the ass, and she said unto Balaam, What have I done unto thee, that thou hast smitten me these three times?

Yep. We are in agreement. God can do anything, even make a rock so big He cannot move it.

 

[Panevino]

Yep. We are in agreement. God can do anything, even make a rock so big He cannot move it.

I gather you are being facetious right? He can't negate his own power, and He can't sin.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I gather you are being facetious right? He can't negate his own power, and He can't sin.

Nor does he share His divine attributes which include omnipresence and omniscience.

 

[prodromos]

Nor does he share His divine attributes which include omnipresence and omniscience.

or walking on water or healing the lame or the sick or raising the dead...

 

[Daniel Marsh]

I gather you are being facetious right? He can't negate his own power, and He can't sin.

There is another way to look at that. The Son of God created mountains and large rocks. During his incarnation, there would be many rocks just using his human strength that he could not move.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

or walking on water or healing the lame or the sick or raising the dead...

Those are not attributes.