Can the saints in heaven here us?

[Daniel Marsh]

Ecclesiastes 9:6
Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

Above is used to say the dead has nothing to do with anything done in this life by others, thus they can not hear us.

Hebrews 12, cloud of witnesses is used to say those in heaven can hear us. However, this text refers to the testimonies, witness of those in Hebrews 11 when read in context.

 

[newlightseven]

Ecclesiastes was written to say that everything done under the sun is vain and there is no reward or eternal life for those who live under the sun. But if you accept Christ you live above the sun and your expectation shall not be cut off. As far as if the saints hear us, I think they can if God permits it.

 

[anna ~ grace]

I believe that it is possible that those in Paradise can hear us, or be aware of our struggles and needs. Growing up Protestant, my particular church never prayed to saints or asked them for prayers, and I always found the practice kind of weird. But in light of what Scripture says about us being alive in Christ and about the cloud of witnesses, it seems possible that those in Paradise could see, hear, and care about our progress as Christians. I'm kind of not sure about that one. Still seeking to understand that dimension of Christian reality.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Thanks, it is generally soul sleep people who use it as a proof text.
daniel

 

[prodromos]

The Church is one body. Those in the Church who have passed away do not cease being in Christ's body until the last day. If one part of the body suffers, the whole body suffers. If one part of the body rejoices, the whole body rejoices.

 

[VanillaSunflowers]

Ecclesiastes 9:6
Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

Above is used to say the dead has nothing to do with anything done in this life by others, thus they can not hear us.

Hebrews 12, cloud of witnesses is used to say those in heaven can hear us. However, this text refers to the testimonies, witness of those in Hebrews 11 when read in context.

Would it truly be paradise their souls are in now if they could be aware of what is going on in this world right now? How could they have the peace of God in Heaven and be aware of the goings on here on earth and to their loved one's?

I don't think they are aware of this plane anymore. When we're alive here we're told in the scriptures that we are not of this world even though we're in it.
When we die and leave this world wouldn't it be a bit contradictory to be out of this world but aware of it?

 

[bbbbbbb]

Let say, for the sake of discussion, that a deceased individual in heaven is capable of audible hearing of speech on earth. Does that mean that the person hears other people individually as we do on earth? Or does it mean that he is somehow omnipresent and omniscient so the he simultaneously hears and understands multiple conversation? Those individuals who favor the latter understanding thereby ascribe not only the natural power of hearing to a deceased individual, but also powers of omnipresence and omniscience.

 

[prodromos]

Peter, Paul and the other apostles healed people of their infirmities and even raised people from the dead. By your assessment the Bible is attributing divine powers to them yet we don't bat an eyelid at that. We understand without any controversy that what ever 'powers' and 'abilities' they exercise ultimately come from God. So why is it controversial when we attribute other divine abilities to the Saints?

 

[bbbbbbb]

Peter, Paul and the other apostles healed people of their infirmities and even raised people from the dead. By your assessment the Bible is attributing divine powers to them yet we don't bat an eyelid at that. We understand without any controversy that what ever 'powers' and 'abilities' they exercise ultimately come from God. So why is it controversial when we attribute other divine abilities to the Saints?

Sure, why not at all? Why not have a universe filled with demi-gods battling the evil forces of Star Wars? If we can imagine it, it must be so.

 

[Panevino]

Ecclesiastes 9:6
Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

Above is used to say the dead has nothing to do with anything done in this life by others, thus they can not hear us.

I understand that the context of the above verse is visible when you look at verse 4-5 and 7.
The idea of stressing that your only hope / chance of responding to God grace and carrying out good works is before you die. It's too late when you have died.

4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
5 For the living know that they shall die:but the dead know not any thing,neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

The idea that "the dead know not anything" needs to be interpreted with a consistency or consideration of the whole of scripture which has lots of examples where those in heaven do know something and speak etc...(i.e. Rev6:9-10)

Accordingly I understand the idea is that verse 5 is stressing the inability to effect the good works Referred to in verse 7
"...for God now accepteth thy works."
Perhaps consider also wisdom3:1-3
(Deuterocanon)

Hebrews 12, cloud of witnesses is used to say those in heaven can hear us. However, this text refers to the testimonies, witness of those in Hebrews 11 when read in context.

Read this in light of later verses 22-23"..but you have come to mount Zion and to the city of the living God, heavenly Jerusalem.....and to the spirits of just men made perfect"(see also col1:12, "..saints in light")

Consider also these saints in heaven as described in bold below
Luke 20:35-36
But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

Rev 6:9-10 shows awareness of events on earth.

Also consider
Revelation 5:13
And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Sure, why not at all? Why not have a universe filled with demi-gods battling the evil forces of Star Wars? If we can imagine it, it must be so.

Well, the only one I know who showed from GENESIS(BERESHIT) thru REVELATION (i.e. all of SCRIPTURE)
the HARMONY and PERFECT ORCHESTRATION
of ALL SCRIPTURE
is E.W.BULLINGER in a long study titled the rich man and lazarus.
No one else in any camp (so far) showed consistency thru all the SCRIPTURE.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Would it truly be paradise their souls are in now if they could be aware of what is going on in this world right now? How could they have the peace of God in Heaven and be aware of the goings on here on earth and to their loved one's?

I don't think they are aware of this plane anymore. When we're alive here we're told in the scriptures that we are not of this world even though we're in it.
When we die and leave this world wouldn't it be a bit contradictory to be out of this world but aware of it?

If they were aware, that would explain a reason for God wiping away our tears.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Let say, for the sake of discussion, that a deceased individual in heaven is capable of audible hearing of speech on earth. Does that mean that the person hears other people individually as we do on earth? Or does it mean that he is somehow omnipresent and omniscient so the he simultaneously hears and understands multiple conversation? Those individuals who favor the latter understanding thereby ascribe not only the natural power of hearing to a deceased individual, but also powers of omnipresence and omniscience.

As I understand it, Catholic Apologetists argue that Heaven has more dimensions than we live in and thus are able to hear many conversations at the same time.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

While SCRIPTURE says at least a few places without ever contradicting SCRIPTURE
that the dead cannot praise the LORD, nor can they do anything. (including hear anything on earth).

So choose TODAY who you will follow. SCRIPTURE
or other.

 

[Major1]

Ecclesiastes was written to say that everything done under the sun is vain and there is no reward or eternal life for those who live under the sun. But if you accept Christ you live above the sun and your expectation shall not be cut off. As far as if the saints hear us, I think they can if God permits it.

But that would be a universal answer would it not???

God can do anything does not really answer the question.

 

[Major1]

Peter, Paul and the other apostles healed people of their infirmities and even raised people from the dead. By your assessment the Bible is attributing divine powers to them yet we don't bat an eyelid at that. We understand without any controversy that what ever 'powers' and 'abilities' they exercise ultimately come from God. So why is it controversial when we attribute other divine abilities to the Saints?

The teaching for this is "Continuation" or "Cessationism".

In other words, the gifts you described were for the apostles and end with John or they are still active today.

IF they are still active today then we should see people raising dead people from the grave.

 

[Major1]

While SCRIPTURE says at least a few places without ever contradicting SCRIPTURE
that the dead cannot praise the LORD, nor can they do anything. (including hear anything on earth).

So choose TODAY who you will follow. SCRIPTURE
or other.

Luke 16:26-31 seems to say that there is no way for the dead to communicate with the living.............
" And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’ And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father's house— for I have five brothers—so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’ But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ And he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ He said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.’”

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

In other words, the gifts you described were for the apostles and end with John or they are still active today.

IF they are still active today then we should see people raising dead people from the grave.

"In other words"... (also)
once you see someone raised from the dead
or talk with people you trust , missionaries or otherwise, who have seen people raised from the dead
....
i.e. "what we have seen and heard ...."

 

[Panevino]

While SCRIPTURE says at least a few places without ever contradicting SCRIPTURE
that the dead cannot praise the LORD, nor can they do anything. (including hear anything on earth).

So choose TODAY who you will follow. SCRIPTURE
or other.

Revelation 5:13
And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Revelation 5:13
And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

SCRIPTURE is TRUE, without
any contradiction to any other SCRIPTURE.
No problem with this one either.
It doesn't contradict any other SCRIPTURE.
That's one sure test of any word from anyone - if it contradicts SCRIPTURE, it is false.