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Can sinning can be overcome?

truthmagnet

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Sadly, I believe that this is totally a faith issue. I say sadly, because it requires a great deal of faith which I believe most of us are lacking in. We must completely submit ourselves to God's will and that is very hard for us to do. We have to be willing. I pray, "Lord please make me willing to be willing to be pleasing in your site". We must devote ourselves to the Lord and most of us are not "willing" to do that. The world is a big distraction. The Lord does not lead us into temptation as it is translated in some scriptures. Actually it should read , "Lord please don't allow us to be lead into temptation". From such, turn away. If we stay conscious of things around us and we see a temptation coming our way, we should pray immediately, "Lord please help me not to look, not to consider not to covet that. Please turn my heart and mind away from temptation." then we have to do our part and don't give temptation a chance. it takes, practice, practice, practice. i believe victory over sin can be achieved but in the state that most of us are in , i find it doubtful that we are that dedicated to become sinless. It's our choice. God guide you all to become dedicated sin fighters. ; )
 
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Jimlarmore

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How successful have you been at simply 'avoiding' sin? How many times a day/week/year do you not 'avoid' it? Does 'avoiding' it cleanse you from your 'slips'. How can you claim to have overcome sin if you still have 'slips', even occasionally?

My success in the sin area lies in the lap of my savior. He has wiped out my sin and He can keep me from it. I have prayed to Christ to keep me from sin and to take control of my life and He has. To me I would rather die than to intentionally comit a known sin because I know what sin does to my Savior. However, sometimes in conversation or what ever I will say or do something without thinking that I know almost instantly is a sin. Sometimes it may be for flaming a guy like you while discussing of all things salvation. Talk about ironic, think about it, sinning while talking about sin, is that crazy or what? Anyway, I know how to take care of that and my focused attention on my creator is extremely vital for this. The struggle for all of this will not end until we receive our glorified minds and bodies.

I know that the blood of my Savior was not shed to allow me a license to keep on sinning with impunity. I know that the royal law of God is perfect and good and was given as a blessing to mankind.

Still off topic for this thread. And you know I cannot give a response without getting warned yet again.:)


Wait a second, are you saying you can't simply answer with a yes or no on this. Except for the mark of the beast question I formated the other two questions for a yes or no.

If you will answer my questions honestly I can go to the GT denomination specific board and start a thread just for those questions, are you willing to answer them if I do?

God Bless
Jim Larmore
 
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NightEternal

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I have never in my life read the Gospel of salvation so misunderstood, maligned, twisted and corrupted as I have in this thread. I think I am going to be sick...:sick:

I don't even know where to begin.

Actually, I won't even bother. I will achieve the same amount of success that Ford did with Paulson.

I have tried in absolute vain to correct the perfectionist mindset of the TSDA's. But, it has become painfully clear: They will never accept the Scriptural premise that we will not be sinless until glorification. Never. They will also never accept the correct definition of perfection as spiritual maturity as opposed to flawless sinlessness.

I have posted on this forum, to date, three seperate links to Geoffery Paxton's excellent article which outlines how Adventists have misunderstood salvation. I can see now that not one TSDA here has even bothered to read it. Pathetic.

Freeindeed and RC_NewProtestants, go nuts. I hope you have more success than I have had here and other forums. I, personally, cannot do it anymore. This corruption is so deeply imbedded in the Adventist psyche, that it is pointless and futile to expend the energy and time it takes to battle it.

There are none so blind as those who will not see. So let us leave them to thier bankrupt, Ralph Larson, sinless perfection delusions and let us rest in the finished work, righteousness and absolute perfection of Christ our Savior.

Regardless of the fact that those who criticize Ford don't have even one tenth the clear understanding of the Gospel of salvation he does, their demonization of Evangelical belief in salvation continues unabated. :sigh:
 
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OntheDL

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Sadly, I believe that this is totally a faith issue. I say sadly, because it requires a great deal of faith which I believe most of us are lacking in. We must completely submit ourselves to God's will and that is very hard for us to do. We have to be willing. I pray, "Lord please make me willing to be willing to be pleasing in your site". We must devote ourselves to the Lord and most of us are not "willing" to do that. The world is a big distraction. The Lord does not lead us into temptation as it is translated in some scriptures. Actually it should read , "Lord please don't allow us to be lead into temptation". From such, turn away. If we stay conscious of things around us and we see a temptation coming our way, we should pray immediately, "Lord please help me not to look, not to consider not to covet that. Please turn my heart and mind away from temptation." then we have to do our part and don't give temptation a chance. it takes, practice, practice, practice. i believe victory over sin can be achieved but in the state that most of us are in , i find it doubtful that we are that dedicated to become sinless. It's our choice. God guide you all to become dedicated sin fighters. ; )

Most people are overwhelmed by the enormity of the task, while they failed to realize the multiplication factor of the equation:

"I can do ALL things through Christ who strengthens me."

We forget about the enabling and empowering holy spirit.
 
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OntheDL

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I have never in my life read the Gospel of Salvation so misunderstood, maligned, twisted and corrupted as I have in this thread. I think I am going to be sick...:sick:

I don't even know where to begin.

Actually, I won't bother. I have tried without one ounce of success to correct the perfectionist mindset of the TSDA's. They will never accept the Scriptural premise that we will not be sinless until glorification. Never.

Freeindeed, go nuts. I hope you have more success than I have had here and other forums. I, personally, cannot do it anymore. This corruption is so deeply imbedded in the Adventist psyche, that it is pointless and futile to expend the energy and time it takes to battle it.

Regardless of the fact that those who criticize Ford don't have even one tenth the clear understanding of the Gospel of salvation he does, the demonization of this fine man continues unabated. :sigh:

Then God must be a lier when He asks us:

"Be holy, for I AM holy"

"Be ye therefore perfect even as your Father who is in heaven."

1 John 3
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1 Thess 5:3 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Contrary to what you said, Paul under the inspiration penned that we should be blameless unto the coming of Jesus, NOT after his comes.

If you are waiting after Jesus's return to be perfectly sinless, then you will NEVER be.

If you are filthy when Jesus comes, you will be filthy still.

Rev 22
11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
 
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NightEternal

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Then God must be a lier when He asks us:

"Be holy, for I AM holy"

We are holy because Christ is Holy and His righteousness stands in place of our filthiness and because His imputed righteousness is credited to us as our own. Read Romans.

"Be ye therefore perfect even as your Father who is in heaven."

We are perfect in the flawless, idealized sense as a result of Christ and His perfection in place of our own, His imputed righteousness credited as our own. Read Romans.

What juvenile, immature, primitive interpretation of these texts. I thought our church had left this sort of surface exegesis behind long ago.

1 John 3
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1 Thess 5:3 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Same old proof texts taken out of context and interpreted in a completely foreign way from which they were intended. These passages imply absolutely nothing about sinless perfection before glorification. They merely stress the need for Christ and His perfect righteousness.

Because He has imparted His perfect, blameless life to us, we are considered so by virtue of His grace.

Just like Abraham was, just like Enoch was as well BTW.

Contrary to what you said, Paul under the inspiration penned that we should be blameless unto the coming of Jesus, NOT after his comes.

No, contrary to what you say, Christ's perfection stands as our own continually, right up until His return until glorification. We are considered blameless because we have accepted His righteousness as our own. As long as we have our sinful, fallen human nature, we will have need for Christ's imputed righteousness. That imputed righteousness is why sinful beings will be able to claim they are blameless before they have been changed in the twinkling of an eye.

If you are waiting after Jesus's return to be perfectly sinless, then you will NEVER be.

Complete nonsense and a damnable lie as well. This hateful rhetoric has ruled Adventism long enough.

I guarantee you sir, for every soul you discourage out of the church and for every individual's assurance of salvation you dare to destroy with this trash perfection theology, God will hold you accountable for the little ones in the faith you ruin.

If you are filthy when Jesus comes, you will be filthy still.

Rev 22
11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Anyone found filthy when Christ returns will be found so because they have NOT accepted Christ as thier Savior and they have NOT made sure they were wearing the spotless white wedding garment of Christ's righteousness. PERIOD! HOW MUCH CLEARER CAN WE MAKE IT?

My goodness, it's like bashing my head against a brick wall sometimes! Why do I waste my time?

Roman Catholic process theology at its finest, and they don't even know they are advocating it! Unbelievable.[/quote]

_________________________________________________
 
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woobadooba

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I have never in my life read the Gospel of salvation so misunderstood, maligned, twisted and corrupted as I have in this thread. I think I am going to be sick...:sick:

I don't even know where to begin.

So what is the sin in your life that you don't believe God is capable of delivering you from?

Really, that is what it all comes down to.

The gospel doesn't just consist of the idea that Jesus has forgiven us of our confessed sins, but also that He wills to deliver us from our sins.

There is nothing unBiblical about this. And I challenge you to prove that what I have said is a distorted view of the gospel.

"And she shall bear a son, and you shall call His name JESUS: for He shall save His people from their sins." (Mat 1:21)

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek." (Rom 1:16)
 
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Jimlarmore

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Regardless of the fact that those who criticize Ford don't have even one tenth the clear understanding of the Gospel of salvation he does, their demonization of Evangelical belief in salvation continues unabated. :sigh:

I can see your a little bit of a hot head but hey so am I at times. I too believe we will not achieve a perfect sinless condition until the 2nd coming. The reason I believe that is because it's Biblical. I don't accept the idea that you can sin with impunity and still be saved, that is not Biblical.

You seem to be a big Dr. Ford fan so I will ask you the same questions I asked Freeindeed2, who seems unwilling to answer even with a yes or no.

1. Do you accept the day for a year principle in the Bible for prophetic purpose? Yes or no?

2. Do you consider the mark of the Beast to directly involve how we worship and the day we worship on? Yes or no?

3. Are you a preterist? Yes or No?

God Bless
Jim Larmore
 
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RC_NewProtestants

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Jim wrote:
I too believe we will not achieve a perfect sinless condition until the 2nd coming. The reason I believe that is because it's Biblical. I don't accept the idea that you can sin with impunity and still be saved, that is not Biblical.

Thank you Jim, then you and I and Dr. Ford and NightE are in agreement. No one here has talked about sinning with impunity just the very fact that we even while following Christ still sin both in commission and omission.
 
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OntheDL

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We are holy because Christ is Holy and His righteousness stands in place of our filthiness and because His imputed righteousness is credited to us as our own. Read Romans.

We are perfect in the flawless, idealized sense as a result of Christ and His perfection in place of our own, His imputed righteousness credited as our own. Read Romans.

What juvenile, immature, primitive interpretation of these texts. I thought our church had left this sort of surface exegesis behind long ago.

Same old proof texts taken out of context and interpreted in a completely foreign way from which they were intended. These passages imply absolutely nothing about sinless perfection before glorification. They merely stress the need for Christ and His perfect righteousness.

Because He has imparted His perfect, blameless life to us, we are considered so by virtue of His grace.

Just like Abraham was, just like Enoch was as well BTW.

No, contrary to what you say, Christ's perfection stands as our own continually, right up until His return until glorification. We are considered blameless because we have accepted His righteousness as our own. As long as we have our sinful, fallen human nature, we will have need for Christ's imputed righteousness. That imputed righteousness is why sinful beings will be able to claim they are blameless before they have been changed in the twinkling of an eye.

Complete nonsense and a damnable lie as well. This hateful rhetoric has ruled Adventism long enough.

I guarantee you sir, for every soul you discourage out of the church and for every individual's assurance of salvation you dare to destroy with this trash perfection theology, God will hold you accountable for the little ones in the faith you ruin.

Anyone found filthy when Christ returns will be found so because they have NOT accepted Christ as thier Savior and they have NOT made sure they were wearing the spotless white wedding garment of Christ's righteousness. PERIOD! HOW MUCH CLEARER CAN WE MAKE IT?

My goodness, it's like bashing my head against a brick wall sometimes! Why do I waste my time?

Roman Catholic process theology at its finest, and they don't even know they are advocating it! Unbelievable.

I gave your scriptures and you came back with your opinion with zero scriptures provided.

This is your problem with TSDA'sm because it doesn't teach a cheap grace. It teaches the true believers have to live a holy life. It's your choice, isn't it?
 
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Jimlarmore

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Jim wrote:


Thank you Jim, then you and I and Dr. Ford and NightE are in agreement. No one here has talked about sinning with impunity just the very fact that we even while following Christ still sin both in commission and omission.

When someone says behavior does not matter then I have a problem with that because what the Bible says has a problem with that. My comment was sinning with impunity and maybe there is a better way to describe what I am trying to say. The bottom line is this for me, many who are ex-adventists and progressive adventists say it's ok to break the Sabbath if your boss calls you in to work, or lying to save face is ok, and well we won't even get into impure thoughts. I think this is wrong behavior and if not confessed and repented of can lead to being lost. They on the other hand say it doesn't matter so their version of salvation in my opinion and that of many others leads them right back into intentional sin.

God Bless
Jim Larmore
 
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NightEternal

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I gave your scriptures and you came back with your opinion with zero scriptures provided.

No, what you gave me were Scriptures interpreted in a completely wrong and baseless manner, out of context and then implied they said something they were not even remotely saying. THAT is what you gave me.

This is your problem with TSDA'sm because it doesn't teach a cheap grace. It teaches the true believers have to live a holy life. It's your choice, isn't it?

Save your fear tactics, they won't work with me. You can save your 'cheap grace' slurs as well, because it's obvious from your idiotic statement you have no clue how expensive our salvation really was and what was sacrificed in order to provide that grace you speak so demeaningly of.

________________________________________________
 
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NightEternal

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I can see your a little bit of a hot head but hey so am I at times.

I always react violently at reading the Gospel of salvation corrupted.

I too believe we will not achieve a perfect sinless condition until the 2nd coming.

Good.

The reason I believe that is because it's Biblical. I don't accept the idea that you can sin with impunity and still be saved, that is not Biblical.

No one is saying that here as far as I can see.

You seem to be a big Dr. Ford fan so I will ask you the same questions I asked Freeindeed2, who seems unwilling to answer even with a yes or no.

I may greatly admire Ford and agree with many things, but I certainly do not agree on everything. That is blind idol worship.

1. Do you accept the day for a year principle in the Bible for prophetic purpose? Yes or no?

Yes, but that is not the topic of this thread.

2. Do you consider the mark of the Beast to directly involve how we worship and the day we worship on? Yes or no?

Yes, but that is not the topic of this thread.

3. Are you a preterist? Yes or No?

No, but that is not the topic of this thread.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

I agree with Ford on his views of salvation, but not on the IJ or the day/year principal.
 
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RC_NewProtestants

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Jim wrote:
When someone says behavior does not matter then I have a problem with that because what the Bible says has a problem with that.

Where did you see that on this thread or in anything by Dr. Ford? You have been responding to things apparently in your own mind rather than things actually said.
 
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OntheDL

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No, what you gave me were Scriptures interpreted in a completely wrong and baseless manner, out of context and then implied they said something they were not even remotely saying. THAT is what you gave me.

Save your fear tactics, they won't work with me. You can save your 'cheap grace' slurs as well, because it's obvious from your idiotic statement you have no clue how expensive our salvation really was and what was sacrificed in order to provide that grace you speak so demeaningly of.

It doesn't take much to get you going again.

I'm sorry you don't like it. But that's what Adventism teaches. Almost all other denominations teach what you want to believe. So there is no one here trying to twist your arm.
 
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Jimlarmore

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Where did you see that on this thread or in anything by Dr. Ford? You have been responding to things apparently in your own mind rather than things actually said.

I was speaking of Freeindeed2 and Byfaithalone who have both said on numerous occasions that behavior does not matter once you are saved. That smacks of once saved always saved. I suggest you ask them yourself and see what they say.

The issue of Dr. Ford to me is still in question. What I really suspect and I am trying to confirm it right now is most of these guys who embrace this new righteousness by faith apostacy come from the Ford camp where the first thing that is done is to destroy E.G.White's credibilty and then they attack the IJ. The ultimate result is a skewed version of righteousness by faith which gives them a license to sin.

God Bless
Jim Larmore
 
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reddogs

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It doesn't take much to get you going again.

I'm sorry you don't like it. But that's what Adventism teaches. Almost all other denominations teach what you want to believe. So there is no one here trying to twist your arm.


Boy's, the sandbox is only so big, and the flying sand stings when it hits our eyes. So keep it down to a few grains not the whole shovel or pail.......:wave:
 
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NightEternal

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It doesn't take much to get you going again.

Maybe you should look at your own motivations for deliberately trying to provoke and antagonize before pointing the finger at my justified anger.

I'm sorry you don't like it.

I'd call this understanding what it really is, but I have already been warned enough here about using the 'h' word.

However, that is exactly what it is.

But that's what Adventism teaches.

You will not find anywhere in the fundamentals anything which suggests we must achieve flawless, Godlike sinless perfection before Christ returns. Nowhere. Also, aside from a few ultra-conservatives, you will not find any credible SDA theologian or scholar who still holds to this unBiblical belief. In fact, the majority of them who have educated themselves on the writings of the Reformers have gone to great lengths to refute such an understanding.

What you are advocating is an outdated, Methodist, M.L. Andreason, final generation theology which has already been debunked for years now BY OUR OWN THEOLOGIANS. George Knight demolished this stuff years ago in his books Pharisee's Guide To Perfect Holiness and I Used To Be Perfect. Edward Heppenstall, Raymond Cottrell, Hans LaRondell and Desmond Ford have revealed it for the corruption that it is. Leroy Froom mocked it and called it the belief of the fringe element in the church when he was discussing Questions On Doctrine with Evangelical leaders Barnhouse and Martin.

Get out of the 1800's and get into the game already.

Almost all other denominations teach what you want to believe.

So do many, many gospel-minded SDA thought leaders, ministers, lay people, theologians and scholars. Are you going to tell all of them to take a hike as well? I would like to see you try.

So there is no one here trying to twist your arm.

Oh, give it up already. Do you honestly think you are the first person in my 20+ years in this denomination to tell me to get out of the church? Try a four figure number and you might get close.

We Evangelical SDA's are here to stay, so get used to it. You will have to fight us tooth and nail for this church, because we are not going anywhere.

We will also fight your nasty understanding of salvation theology to the bitter end as well.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
 
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reddogs

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___________________________________________________________________________________________________



You win no one to your cause, Night, with that spirit, and evil is instilled instead of averted in that discussion.......

Red
 
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