CAN sickness glorify God?

TreeOfLife · Dec 9, 2005

A simple truth:

If a person thinks that their salvation depends upon their inate ability to have accepted that God is true, they have then saved themselves.

Likewise, if a person thinks that they have done the right thing to receive healing, then they have healed themselves.

Neither of those two things has anything at all to do with the Good News. They are empty, vain, religious mental excersizes that prevent people from being saved.

LeeS · Dec 9, 2005

Jim M said:
But if you tell someone that their faith can heal them, then pray for their healing and healing does not happen, what do you do? Do you just leave them there wondering why they have no faith and are an embarassment to God and, worse yet, without a clue or any instructions as to how they can getthe necessary faith? Its like telling someone that Cincinnati up the road, even point it out right there on your roadmap, and then not provide instructions on how to get from here to there. What good is that?

If you do provide instructions and healing still does not come, what do you do? Just leave them wallowing in their own self-doubt (although, personally, I believe every believer has the mustard-seed faith necessary to move mountains, much less warts, so the doubt is not so much in God but in their own weak faith self-doubt)?

I would contend the problem is not with their lack of faith but in the failure of your doctrine.

But thats JMO.

~Jim

I understand what you are saying because I had to contend with this myself. I felt that I failed God and I felt that I failed my church where people were frequently healed and had full manifestation of it.

That was an emotional issue that I and God had to work out. I concluded first that God was not unhappy nor dissappointed with me. I concluded that not only did I not have the faith needed but at that point no longer wanted to even go after it. It was too much work and I was too tired.

I think that we cannot cater to people and alter the Word of God because peoples feelings might be hurt. Peoples feelings get hurt over lesser issues than this and we need to be strong in those emotions and not allow those emotions to steer us away from what God says vs what the situation says.

So what if my faith is not strong enough today...perhaps if I keep at it, it will be stronger tomorrow. It's all about growing and maturing in our walk with Him. Not about being comfortable where we're at and camping for the rest of our lives.

Thankfully, God uses us in whatever condition we're in. Thank You Jesus!

Strong in Him · Dec 9, 2005

TreeOfLife said:
A simple truth:

If a person thinks that their salvation depends upon their inate ability to have accepted that God is true, they have then saved themselves.

Likewise, if a person thinks that they have done the right thing to receive healing, then they have healed themselves.

Neither of those two things has anything at all to do with the Good News. They are empty, vain, religious mental excersizes that prevent people from being saved.

Great post.

LeeS · Dec 9, 2005

TreeOfLife said:
A simple truth:

If a person thinks that their salvation depends upon their inate ability to have accepted that God is true, they have then saved themselves.

Likewise, if a person thinks that they have done the right thing to receive healing, then they have healed themselves.

Neither of those two things has anything at all to do with the Good News. They are empty, vain, religious mental excersizes that prevent people from being saved.

Wasn't it Jesus who said to the woman "your faith has made you whole"?

TreeOfLife · Dec 9, 2005

LeeS said:
Wasn't it Jesus who said to the woman "your faith has made you whole"?

But He did not say, "your self generated, mind over matter, astonishing willpower to have faith made you whole", now did He?

Nope.

LeeS · Dec 9, 2005

TreeOfLife said:
But He did not say, "your self generated, mind over matter, astonishing willpower to have faith made you whole", now did He?

Nope.

Neither has anyone here said that.

LittleRocketBoy · Dec 9, 2005

The whole idea is really illogical and people outside of the Christian religious new-speak have to be scratching their heads.

If I run a race and win it in record time...
I get the medal, I get the praise, I get the glory...
not my coach.

If I am a soldier and resue my platoon from certain, death...
I get the praise, I get the medal, I get the glory...
not my commander.

If I get a 1600 on the SAT, again...
I get the praise, I get the scholoarship, I get the glory... not the priciple of my school.

How, and with what logical twist and turn, can you as a person accomplish some tremendous act of religious devotion such as remaining faithful through sickness or persecution... and have that glorify anyone but YOU???

Logically... you get the glory for your faithfulness and devotion... NOT God.

In the eys of an outsider, all God seemed to do was sit there and watch you suffer.
Very unglorifying if you ask that outsider.

I realize I am a systems analyst and am a stickler for logical details.... but this one escapes me.
I cannot imagine what the outsider thinks of this logic... or the God who sits by and watches it happen.

justinstout · Dec 9, 2005

TreeOfLife said:
But He did not say, "your self generated, mind over matter, astonishing willpower to have faith made you whole", now did He?

Nope.

And no one here has said that either. We understand that what Jesus was referring to was their faith in Him, not faith in themselves.

God_follower · Dec 9, 2005

so... 19 pages later? is there a concensus? CAN sickness glorify God?

justinstout · Dec 9, 2005

God_follower said:
so... 19 pages later? is there a concensus? CAN sickness glorify God?

It seems that everyone is still disagreeing on this issue.

But no one has provided a valid example from the Scriptures to show that sickness glorifies God. All that has been provided are Old Covenant verses that don't apply to those after the cross of Christ.. or New Covenant verses that have been interpreted or translated horribly.

In the same way that sin does not glorify a Savior, sickness does not glorify a Healer.

Healing glorifies the Healer, our heavenly Father.

Sickness and disease itself glorifies our Father's adversary.

Harlan Norris · Dec 9, 2005

LittleRocketBoy said:
My mother died of the disease of which you speak. At the age of 42, when I was 13, she passed away.
There was no glory in it for God or anyone else.

None.

It's all a matter of perception.I'm not afraid of dieing,I leave it up to God.Frankly, there's never been a time when God was not in control.Now I am aware of it.If God choses to take me in that fashion,so be it.Meanwhile I give him thanks for my salvation,and for the time I have left to do his will.Glory to God.

Christina M · Dec 9, 2005

<<Originally Posted by: LittleRocketBoy My mother died of the disease of which you speak. At the age of 42, when I was 13, she passed away.
There was no glory in it for God or anyone else.

None.>>

Harlan Norris said:
It's all a matter of perception.I'm not afraid of dieing,I leave it up to God.Frankly, there's never been a time when God was not in control.Now I am aware of it.If God choses to take me in that fashion,so be it.Meanwhile I give him thanks for my salvation,and for the time I have left to do his will.Glory to God.

Harlan,

Are you serious??? Do you really believe it glorified God that this man's mother died when he was only 13?? Do you believe that God was glorified by a child losing his mother at such a young age??

How sad that someone would attribute this sad occurence to our heavenly Father.

TreeOfLife · Dec 10, 2005

LeeS said:
Neither has anyone here said that.

That was most certainly the clear implication in your response to my post.

Strong in Him · Dec 10, 2005

LittleRocketBoy said:
How, and with what logical twist and turn, can you as a person accomplish some tremendous act of religious devotion such as remaining faithful through sickness or persecution... and have that glorify anyone but YOU???

Logically... you get the glory for your faithfulness and devotion... NOT God.

If I was the one who generated my own strength, if I was a humanist who took the credit/blame for everything that happened to me, if I made it clear to everyone that everything I have, do and own is due to me and me alone, then of course any show of strength in difficult times is entirely of my own doing and due to my marvellous character.

But it's not like that at all, and I, personally, don't make out that it is. People's response to me has been; if God can help you, I feel encouraged to believe that he can help me too. If the Lord can use you with your weaknesses, then I'll believe that he can use me to and will not let my problem be an excuse for not serving him. If anyone were to say to me "aren't you a special person?" I'd say "no, he is a special God." I know what I could be, and have been, like. I know that I could moan and groan with the best of them, or feel smug about serving him with disabilities, or ask him if he's noticed how noble I'm being, or complain to anyone about what a raw deal I've got and how about a bit of sympathy please? The fact that I no longer do that is only because he has healed me from my negative, self-serving attitude and I know that it is his strength and joy that sustain me.

If outsuiders want to look at me and make some snap judgement about me, my beliefs and my God, that is their business. If they don't want to talk to me and discover that I believe "t'is Grace that's brought me safe thus far", they will be jumping to the wrong conclusions.

Harlan Norris · Dec 10, 2005

Christina M said:
<<Originally Posted by: LittleRocketBoy My mother died of the disease of which you speak. At the age of 42, when I was 13, she passed away.
There was no glory in it for God or anyone else.

None.>>

Harlan,

Are you serious??? Do you really believe it glorified God that this man's mother died when he was only 13?? Do you believe that God was glorified by a child losing his mother at such a young age??

How sad that someone would attribute this sad occurence to our heavenly Father.

Look in the book of Job.Our hardships can strengthen ones faith.They are not just terrible nightmares.Remember God ALLOWED Jobs tribulations to test him.This life is short.Anything that happenes in this life is temporary.We are looking tward a heavenly reward.Remember,because of Jobs faith he was restored in this life.God was glorified by Jobs testing,because he came through with flying colors.It's a very good example to follow.

LittleRocketBoy · Dec 10, 2005

Regradless of our discussion, I pray for you and that ultimately you continue to find solace and peace with Him.
Dids
P.S. Do not take that final drink dude!

Harlan Norris said:
Look in the book of Job.Our hardships can strengthen ones faith.They are not just terrible nightmares.Remember God ALLOWED Jobs tribulations to test him.This life is short.Anything that happenes in this life is temporary.We are looking tward a heavenly reward.Remember,because of Jobs faith he was restored in this life.God was glorified by Jobs testing,because he came through with flying colors.It's a very good example to follow.

LeeS · Dec 10, 2005

TreeOfLife said:
That was most certainly the clear implication in your response to my post.

That is a lie. None of my posts imply any such thing. I get the impression that you have not even bothered to read what I've said. Instead choosing to attack what your immagination has fed you instead of what has actually been written.

TreeOfLife · Dec 10, 2005

LeeS said:
That is a lie. None of my posts imply any such thing. I get the impression that you have not even bothered to read what I've said. Instead choosing to attack what your immagination has fed you instead of what has actually been written.

You are calling me a liar? I can see how you may believe I am mistaken, I can even see that I could be mistaken, but you have no right at all calling me a liar!

That is just not right.

LeeS · Dec 10, 2005

TreeOfLife said:
You are calling me a liar? I can see how you may believe I am mistaken, I can even see that I could be mistaken, but you have no right at all calling me a liar!

That is just not right.

You accused me of saying this

TreeOfLife said:
But He did not say, "your self generated, mind over matter, astonishing willpower to have faith made you whole", now did He?

Nope.

Unless you can point me to the exact post where I said exactly that then the statement made by you is a LIE. Instead of sound reasoning you are resorting to personal and unfounded attacks. I have not said such thing about you or anyone else. I have tried to explain my view the best I know how and not once have I come even close to the unfounded accusations you have made toward me.

justinstout · Dec 10, 2005

TreeOfLife said:
You are calling me a liar? I can see how you may believe I am mistaken, I can even see that I could be mistaken, but you have no right at all calling me a liar!

That is just not right.

Umm.. LeeS didn't say that you were a "liar". She simply stated that what you said was a lie. There's a difference.

CAN sickness glorify God?

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