Can Salvation be lost?

prophecy_uk

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The text says Willfully sinning not continually sin. The word is the standard not us.
And we have no idea what one is doing unless we are God.
If we are willfully sinning all we have to look forward to is His fiery indignation which shall destroy the adversary; the willfully sinning person who has received the knowledge of the truth.





The servant will be kept back from presumptuous sins, to not have dominion over us, to be innocent from the great transgression ( of the curse of Adam)

We are then dead indeed to sin, to be alive to God through Jesus Christ, by sin not having dominion over us, for we are not under the law ( of sin and death) but are under grace ( of the Spirit of life in Christ which sets us free form the law of sin and death Romans 8)....



Psalm 19:13 Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression.

Romans 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.



The law has dominion over us as long as we live, we are become dead to the law by the body of Christ, to be married to another, to God who raised up Christ from the dead to bring fruit to God ( not evil fruit of sinning)...


Romans 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

Romans 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.



Then we draw near in full assurance of faith, and our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, washed with pure water, and holding fast without wavering.

Wavering is sinning presumptuously, and that is against the knowledge of the truth...



Hebrews 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,



The Lord delivers the Godly ( the just) out of those temptations, and the unjust are presumptuous, and self willed and wa,lk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, speaking evil of dignities..


2 Peter 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.
 
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Hammster

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The text says Willfully sinning not continually sin. The word is the standard not us.
And we have no idea what one is doing unless we are God.
If we are willfully sinning all we have to look forward to is His fiery indignation which shall destroy the adversary; the willfully sinning person who has received the knowledge of the truth.
Do you sin?
 
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HIM

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Do you sin?
We are not the topic nor the standard God's word is and Whom He sent. And it says If we are willfully Sinning, if this who we are, our state of being then there remains no more sacrifice for sins, only certain fearful looking forward to judgement and fiery indignation which shall devour the adversaries, the willfully sinning.
 
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Hammster

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We are not the topic nor the standard God's word is and Whom He sent. And it says If we are willfully Sinning, if this who we are, our state of being then there remains no more sacrifice for sins, only certain fearful looking forward to judgement and fiery indignation which shall devour the adversaries, the willfully sinning.
Actually, we are the topic. I’ll admit that I still sin. It’s not hard to admit, though not pleasant. And when I sin, it’s deliberate. I say that those sums are paid for, and you say by implication that they are not.

let me quote the verse.


For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
— Hebrews 10:26

It doesn’t say “if this is who we are, our state of being.” You are adding that to scripture.
 
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HIM

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let me quote the verse.


For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
— Hebrews 10:26

It doesn’t say “if this is who we are, our state of being.” You are adding that to scripture.
Incorrect. The word sinning is in the present tense and is a participle; verbal noun. It is a non-finite action, a continual state of being; who we are, not just a action. A one and done.
 
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Danthemailman

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Actually, we are the topic. I’ll admit that I still sin. It’s not hard to admit, though not pleasant. And when I sin, it’s deliberate. I say that those sums are paid for, and you say by implication that they are not.

let me quote the verse.

For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
— Hebrews 10:26

It doesn’t say “if this is who we are, our state of being.” You are adding that to scripture.
The present tense indicates this is their lifestyle. Such people practice sin. It describes a continual state of willful, deliberate sinning. Hebrews 10:26 (AMPC) - For if we go on deliberately and willingly sinning after once acquiring the knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice left to atone for [our] sins [no further offering to which to look forward]. Such people are rejecting Christ deliberately.

*In contrast, in 1 John 3:9, we read - No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
 
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Hammster

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The present tense indicates this is their lifestyle. Such people practice sin. It describes a continual state of willful, deliberate sinning. Hebrews 10:26 (AMPC) - For if we go on deliberately and willingly sinning after once acquiring the knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice left to atone for [our] sins [no further offering to which to look forward]. Such people are rejecting Christ deliberately.

*In contrast, in 1 John 3:9, we read - No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
I do agree, actually. I’m just trying to dig down to the truth. And the truth of the matter is that the verse never says anything about losing salvation.
 
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Danthemailman

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I do agree, actually. I’m just trying to dig down to the truth. And the truth of the matter is that the verse never says anything about losing salvation.
True. In context, the writer of Hebrews finishes with, “But WE are not of those who draw back to perdition, but OF THOSE who believe to the saving of the soul. Those who draw back to perdition do not believe to the saving of the soul and those who believe to the saving of the soul do not draw back to perdition
 
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BNR32FAN

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There is no example in the Apostles of Jesus Christ sinning at all, neither accidentally, nor wilfully. How can a new man be dead to sin, and a new man and all old passed away, or any law written in the new heart in the new covenant, if they are open to sin at any time, according to the doctrine of " a way out clause"


If you placed a programme into a computer, will it not just carry out its instructions ?


The same as you expect no good to be in an evil person, no evil is in the good one..



Mathew 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

In Romans 7 Paul admits to committing sin in his conflicting natures.

“For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭7:14-25‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Paul rebuked Peter for his hypocrisy in Galatians 2. Even Barnabas was carried away with that hypocrisy.

“But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. For prior to the coming of certain men from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he began to withdraw and hold himself aloof, fearing the party of the circumcision. The rest of the Jews joined him in hypocrisy, with the result that even Barnabas was carried away by their hypocrisy. But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in the presence of all, “If you, being a Jew, live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews, how is it that you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭2:11-14‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Not only this but the scriptures mention several times people who have received the Holy Spirit yet still struggle with sin.

“You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love. You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth? This persuasion did not come from Him who calls you. A little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough. I have confidence in you in the Lord that you will adopt no other view; but the one who is disturbing you will bear his judgment, whoever he is. But I, brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why am I still persecuted? Then the stumbling block of the cross has been abolished. I wish that those who are troubling you would even mutilate themselves. For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another. But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law. Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. Let us not become boastful, challenging one another, envying one another.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:4-26‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“So this I say, and affirm together with the Lord, that you walk no longer just as the Gentiles also walk, in the futility of their mind, being darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart; and they, having become callous, have given themselves over to sensuality for the practice of every kind of impurity with greediness. But you did not learn Christ in this way, if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught in Him, just as truth is in Jesus, that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit, and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind, and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth. Therefore, laying aside falsehood, speak truth each one of you with his neighbor, for we are members of one another. Be angry, and yet do not sin; do not let the sun go down on your anger, and do not give the devil an opportunity. He who steals must steal no longer; but rather he must labor, performing with his own hands what is good, so that he will have something to share with one who has need. Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment, so that it will give grace to those who hear. Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭4:17-32‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children; and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma. But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints; and there must be no filthiness and silly talk, or coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them; for you were formerly darkness, but now you are Light in the Lord; walk as children of Light (for the fruit of the Light consists in all goodness and righteousness and truth), trying to learn what is pleasing to the Lord. Do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them; for it is disgraceful even to speak of the things which are done by them in secret. But all things become visible when they are exposed by the light, for everything that becomes visible is light.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5:1-13‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬
 
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Trivalee

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That sounds like this post is actually asking Free-will VS. Predestination then, which is a similar question if you think about it.

Literally, for every argument, one can posit there will always be another argument to go against it. One just has to choose what they believe based on their understandings and convictions. There is no way to answer this question without starting a debate or having rebuttals and things like that but I have 20 minutes before work starts so, why not?

It's both. God knows who His sheep are. Likewise, He still commands us to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. The fact that God knows all is why I said that there is some truth in the belief that if one walks away then they were never saved to begin with. However, that would be looking at it from God's perspective and not our own, which is not a wrong thing to attempt to do. God, despite knowing all, still expects us to make a decision to follow Him in order to be saved. He knows exactly who will, or won't but still expects us to make that decision. He commands us to believe so that we may not perish but have eternal life. The Word commands it, I choose to believe it. As a man in a human body, whether God has "preordained" it or not is of no consequence. He commands we make the choice even though He knows whether we will obey or not. It's a circular argument. Ultimately though, we must make that choice regardless.

I have considered your position diligently and regret that despite positing a structured argument, you failed to take a stand. Taking a stand is necessary because both sides of the question cannot be right.

It's either that a saved believer may lose his salvation or that it is irrevocable and can not be lost - it has to be one or another. But both definitely cannot be right.

Perhaps this topic is one of the most important questions facing believers. 1 Cor 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

The above passage is apt. Often the recurring argument in support for "once saved, forever saved" is that those who fall away were never saved, to begin with. But this line of reasoning is erroneous on many levels. For example, does anyone believe that Paul was warning the unbeliever "to take heed lest he fall?" I don't think so; I believe he had saved Christians in mind. If it is absolutely impossible for the saved to fall away, this question would have been pointless and unnecessary.

There are some saved Christians who are blissfully walking into hell in ignorance. The scriptures abound with warnings to believers to abide in Christ to the end. The way I see it if there's zero possibility of the saved failing to abide in Him to the end, then the warning would have been redundant - there would have been no requirement for it.

The fact these warnings are all over the NT is evident that the saved can fall away. If you can spare the time, please have a look at post #24. I used two passages, Matt 24:13 & Rom 11:22 to present a detailed exegesis on the subject.
 
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Trivalee

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Matt 18 Jesus explains "forgiveness revoked" and ends with the warning "so shall My Father do to each one of you IF..."

in Romans 11 Paul specifically warns the saved person to fear "for if God did not spare them - He may not spare you either"

Rom 11
20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 See then the kindness and severity of God: to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; for otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in; for God is able to graft them in again.

You are correct. I cited Paul's narrative in Rom 11 in post #24 regarding the fate of his people, Israel and how he juxtaposed Israel's condition today against believing Gentiles that are grafted into Christ. And warned the church in verse 22 that those who fail to continue in Christ will be cut off.

The problem with the Body of Christ is that many people pick and choose scriptures that give them the "feel-good-factor" and ignore the rest.
 
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BobRyan

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Since this was written to the Jews who were accustomed to the old sacrificial system, he tells them in v. 25 that if they don’t hold it these truths, and continue in sin (which they will), there no longer remains a sacrifice. If you are correct, and you sin, then Christ’s sacrifice isn’t even good enough.

Also, keep in mind that this comes after chapters 8 and 9 where he talks extensively about the new sacrifice versus the old. He is really wanting them to see that Christ’s sacrifice is sufficient and the old covenant sacrifices are no longer worth anything.

Since the thread is about losing salvation -- falling from Grace, etc.

Gal 5:4 - yes "falling from grace" is a real danger.
4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.


Heb 6:4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

Those who stand only by faith - at risk of later being "cut off" as were unbelieving Jews:
Rom 11: 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.


Forgiveness revoked:
Matt 18:32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him. 35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.

================

Those who argue that "being severed from Christ" and/or "having forgiveness revoke" and or being "cut off like unbelieving Jews" -- is just "an odd form of being saved" - are not paying attention to the Bible details about what it means to be "saved".

That sounds like this post is actually asking Free-will VS. Predestination then, which is a similar question if you think about it.

Literally, for every argument, one can posit there will always be another argument to go against it. One just has to choose what they believe based on their understandings and convictions. There is no way to answer this question without starting a debate or having rebuttals .

NT Saints are to "contend earnestly for the faith" and to know that scripture is never uncontested, nondebated. See all who gave their lives in the dark ages opposing false doctrine.
 
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Hammster

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Since the thread is about losing salvation -- falling from Grace, etc.

Gal 5:4 - yes "falling from grace" is a real danger.
4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.


Heb 6:4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

Those who stand only by faith - at risk of later being "cut off" as were unbelieving Jews:
Rom 11: 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.


Forgiveness revoked:
Matt 18:32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him. 35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.



NT Saints are to "contend earnestly for the faith" and to know that scripture is never uncontested, nondebated. See all who gave their lives in the dark ages opposing false doctrine.
No one mention of salvation being lost.
 
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BobRyan

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Since the thread is about losing salvation -- falling from Grace, etc.

Gal 5:4 - yes "falling from grace" is a real danger.
4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.


Heb 6:4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

Those who stand only by faith - at risk of later being "cut off" as were unbelieving Jews:
Rom 11: 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.


Forgiveness revoked:
Matt 18:32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him. 35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.

================

Those who argue that "being severed from Christ" and/or "having forgiveness revoke" and or being "cut off like unbelieving Jews" -- is just "an odd form of being saved" - are not paying attention to the Bible details about what it means to be "saved".

NT Saints are to "contend earnestly for the faith" and to know that scripture is never uncontested, nondebated. See all who gave their lives in the dark ages opposing false doctrine.



No one mention of salvation being lost.

In an effort to make the obvious point in my post above even more obvious - I added this in it.

"Those who argue that "being severed from Christ" and/or "having forgiveness revoke" and or being "cut off like unbelieving Jews" -- is just "an odd form of being saved" - are not paying attention to the Bible details about what it means to be "saved" ".

I hope that helps.
 
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1 Timothy 1

18 Timothy, my son, I am giving you this command in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by recalling them you may fight the battle well, 19 holding on to faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and so have suffered shipwreck with regard to the faith. 20 Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.

Hymenaeus and Alexander were not the first that Paul had handed over to Satan, ... not for loss of salvation, but for correction. There was also the young man in the Corinthian church ...

1 Corinthians 5

1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. 2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.

3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

To understand scripture, one should allow context to reveal the message. There is no requirement to put everyone Paul chastised into one group. Your citation in 1 Cor 5:5 is specific that the punishment is for the flesh and not the soul.

On the contrary, Hymenaeus and Alexander not only blasphemed (they grieved the Holy Spirit) but also departed from the faith - they were no longer Christ's.

1 Tim 1: 19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:

20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.


Notice the difference between Hymenaeus and Alexander and the brother in 1 Cor 5?
  • Hymenaeus and Alexander willfully forsook the faith, ie they went back into the world!
  • You cannot forsake something (faith) if you never had it to begin with. This unambiguous statement points to the fact that they were hitherto saved believers who on their own accord, departed from Christ and consequently lost their salvation - made shipwreck!
  • But the brother that slept with his father's wife in 1 Cor 5 still believes in Christ despite his horrendous sin.
 
  • Agree
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HIM

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True. In context, the writer of Hebrews finishes with, “But WE are not of those who draw back to perdition, but OF THOSE who believe to the saving of the soul. Those who draw back to perdition do not believe to the saving of the soul and those who believe to the saving of the soul do not draw back to perdition
I do agree, actually. I’m just trying to dig down to the truth. And the truth of the matter is that the verse never says anything about losing salvation.

Verses 19-25 is exhortation that begins with the writer calling out to brethren and then continues the exhortation in verse 20, and 22 in the first person plural with the word US in connection to the way being consecrated and their hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and bodies washed with pure water. Then again the writer in verse 23 councils in the 1st person plural that they including himself should hold fast their profession of faith without wavering because of God's faithfulness. Then continuing in the first person plural He says in verses 24 and 25 that they, including himself should provoke unto love and good works as they see the day approaching
Then Continuing In Verse 26 with the word FOR. Which means what is about to be said is the reason for what was previously stated. The writer continues in the 1st person plural continuing to include himself in the admonition. How do we know? He uses the word we. Couple that with Verse 29 when he says that the sinning willfully individual was sanctified.

And it would fail us not to mention after the admonition in verse 26-30 the writer starts in verse 32 with the word but and then begins to exhort those to whom he is speaking. Calling them illuminated.

You can't be sanctified, made holy and not be saved. Because you are not sanctified, made holy unless you have been saved.

Incidentally these sanctified illuminated individuals are counseled to not cast away their confidence in verse 35 and within the same thought they are told that they are in need of patience, cheerful endurance. That after they done the will of God they MIGHT receive the promise. Which implies they MIGHT not receive the promise if they do not cheerfully endure.



Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Heb 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
Heb 10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
Heb 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised)
Heb 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
Heb 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Heb 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
Heb 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Heb 10:32 But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions;
Heb 10:35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.
Heb 10:36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
 
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Hammster

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In an effort to make the obvious point in my post above even more obvious - I added this in it.

"Those who argue that "being severed from Christ" and/or "having forgiveness revoke" and or being "cut off like unbelieving Jews" -- is just "an odd form of being saved" - are not paying attention to the Bible details about what it means to be "saved" ".

I hope that helps.
It helps to know that you just throw bits together to make an argument.
 
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BobRyan

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Since the thread is about losing salvation -- falling from Grace, etc.

Gal 5:4 - yes "falling from grace" is a real danger.
4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.


Heb 6:4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

Those who stand only by faith - at risk of later being "cut off" as were unbelieving Jews:
Rom 11: 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.


Forgiveness revoked:
Matt 18:32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him. 35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.

================

Those who argue that "being severed from Christ" and/or "having forgiveness revoke" and or being "cut off like unbelieving Jews" -- is just "an odd form of being saved" - are not paying attention to the Bible details about what it means to be "saved".



NT Saints are to "contend earnestly for the faith" and to know that scripture is never uncontested, nondebated. See all who gave their lives in the dark ages opposing false doctrine.

It helps to know that you just throw bits together to make an argument.

Your response to those texts is not entirely unexpected -- everyone has free will you can reject whatever details you find there - as you wish.
 
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Hammster

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Your response to those texts is not entirely unexpected -- everyone has free will you can reject whatever details you find there - as you wish.
I’m not rejecting the verses. I’m rejecting your use of them apart from the context that they are intended.
 
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