Can "salvation", be "forfeit"?

[Ben johnson]

Are there any verses in Scripture that present truly saved people, becoming unsaved?

 

[nobdysfool]

:o Not this again....

 

[DeaconDean]

As Ricky Ricardo would say:

Ai, yi, yi

Or, as Charlie Brown often said:

Good grief

NBF, you took the words right out of my mouth.

Nuff said.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[sawdust]

Are there any verses in Scripture that present truly saved people, becoming unsaved?

There are none. However there are numerous passages that deal with the believer falling away from the spiritual life that the Lord has ordained for each believer. A life to be lived by grace, through faith.

It is a tragedy when this happens as they have, in trust as it were, all the blessings of the heavenly realm yet live as children of the devil. Consumed with his thinking and motivated by their sense of self first, they do not in any way glorify the Lord nor will they ever learn to as long as they persist in the false doctrine that consumes them.

Btw, how you doing Ben? Long time no ... er ... see, sort of.

peace

 

[Ben johnson]

Not this again....

As Ricky Ricardo would say:

Or, as Charlie Brown often said:

Why make posts to complain? These are "off topic", do not answer the OP, and no one is forced to post here.

There are none. However there are numerous passages that deal with the believer falling away from the spiritual life that the Lord has ordained for each believer. A life to be lived by grace, through faith.

It is a tragedy when this happens as they have, in trust as it were, all the blessings of the heavenly realm yet live as children of the devil. Consumed with his thinking and motivated by their sense of self first, they do not in any way glorify the Lord nor will they ever learn to as long as they persist in the false doctrine that consumes them.

Btw, how you doing Ben? Long time no ... er ... see, sort of.

It is always a delight to converse with you, Sawdust. You speak with kindness and intelligence, and even if we disagree I am better because of having you for a sister.


But please tell me one thing --- if one can "fall away from the spiritual life that the Lord has ordained for each believer", (assuming that God's ordination can be broken), what does that mean? Are they no longer "indwelt by Christ"? IF they are "indwelt" by Christ, how can they be fallen-away-from-spiritual-life? (Does Christ participate in "unspiritual-walking"?)

How are they walking now? More specifically, is there any difference between how they are walking, and how those Jesus calls "goats" are walking?

 

[Ben johnson]

Let's address the question:

"Brethren, if any among you wander from the truth, and another leads him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way has saved a soul from death, and covered many sins." James5:19-20

This is addressed to "brethren" --- saved brethren? Could not be else. Several interpretations are attempted to explain this one.

First, "two groups" --- specifically, "Brethren (saved), if any unsaved-lurking-amongst-you"....

But the subjects, are stated to "wander from the truth". If the subjects were "never-saved-lurking-AMONGST-the-saved", how can they wander from truth they've never HAD? And how can they be lead back to where they never were? The concept of "never-really-were-saved" just doesn't work.

Another interpretation, is that "they wandered but not enough to become UNSAVED". Yet --- they are lead back from "soul-death". He uses "Psuche" (same word as in Rev20:4), and "Thanatos" (which Strong's Greek Lexicon defines as "physical death with implication of eternity in Hell"). Additionally, he speaks of "sins will be covered" --- clearly asserting that the WANDERED, had unforgiven sins. So there's no way that "wandered", could "still be saved".

A third interpretation, is "This is HYPOTHETICAL, can't really happen; fatherly advice, and/or 100% effective MEANS by which God KEEPS us saved." It doesn't read to me as "hypothetical", and the "if" is not a condition that WILL be met.

If any wander from the truth --- conveys real possibility.
If he is lead back --- is also possible. The second "if" is implied by "and".

"If (A), and (B)".

How can this not be speaking of "if any truly saved wanders away from the truth of Jesus and His salvation, and another leads him back, his sins will be forgiven and his soul will be saved from eternal death"?

 

[Ormly]

There are none. However there are numerous passages that deal with the believer falling away from the spiritual life that the Lord has ordained for each believer. A life to be lived by grace, through faith.

It is a tragedy when this happens as they have, in trust as it were, all the blessings of the heavenly realm yet live as children of the devil. Consumed with his thinking and motivated by their sense of self first, they do not in any way glorify the Lord nor will they ever learn to as long as they persist in the false doctrine that consumes them.

Btw, how you doing Ben? Long time no ... er ... see, sort of.

peace

There are many verses that alluded to it. Heres but one:

"When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he saith, I will return unto my house whence I came out. And when he cometh, he findeth it swept and garnished. Then goeth he, and taketh to him seven other spirits more wicked than himself; and they enter in, and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first." Luke 11:24-26 (KJV)

Keep in mind that it took a supernatural happening for the unclean spirit to be cast out. So we have shown a before and after condition and then an 'after the after' condition because the individual did not fill the void with his 'new life'. Whatever he had, he not only lost but entered a state of hardness toward God. Heb 6:4-6 is a step further in this.

 

[sawdust]

It is always a delight to converse with you, Sawdust. You speak with kindness and intelligence, and even if we disagree I am better because of having you for a sister.

The delight is mine if you are encouraged, for it becomes my encouragement too.

But please tell me one thing --- if one can "fall away from the spiritual life that the Lord has ordained for each believer", (assuming that God's ordination can be broken), what does that mean? Are they no longer "indwelt by Christ"? IF they are "indwelt" by Christ, how can they be fallen-away-from-spiritual-life? (Does Christ participate in "unspiritual-walking"?)

A lot of questions in there Ben. I will do my best to explain what I mean.

When we believe in Christ (ie he died for our sin) the Lord does many things for us at that moment. I have a list on my computer that speaks of 40 different things. It is a bit long to post here so I will just note this one thing that speaks of the total outcome.

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! 2Cor.5:17

Now we know from a pratical point of view that not all the old has gone completely (not yet anyway). We still have our sin nature. We also have next to nothing in regards to the knowledge of Christ except the Gospel. But being a new type of lifeform demands a new type of lifestyle. This lifestyle is our spiritual life (the scripture quite often refers to it as "godliness") and is based on being filled with the Spirit and walking by faith. Our salvation is something God alone does including the giving of this new lifestyle but once we have it (by grace) we have a responsibility to live in it.

It is not a matter of breaking what God has ordained rather, it is a failure to live in accordance with it. But this in no way undoes all that the Father has given us in Christ. We remain indwelt by Christ, we still have eternal life, however if we fail to execute the lifestyle God has ordained we do not walk in fellowship with God. In such a case the Spirit is grieved and if we remain out of fellowship we will come under discipline. If we do not heed the discipline and confess our sin (1Jn.1:9) we will eventually quench the Holy Spirit. This is a most miserable position from which to live for a believer.

How are they walking now? More specifically, is there any difference between how they are walking, and how those Jesus calls "goats" are walking?

In appearance, a believer who does not walk in the filling of the Spirit and by faith looks just like an unbeliever. They remain forever though, the new creature. Nothing in all creation can undo what the Lord God has done within and for each believer.

The best analogy I can think of is if we were flowers, our inheritance from Adam causes us to be born into a dank and dark cave, without light, without hope. Christ comes into the cave and sheds the light of His truth. Some flowers hate the light and turn away (continually), others see the light (by the grace of God) and welcome it (believe). If they believe, Christ picks them up and plants them in His garden. The soil is perfect, the warmth and light of the sun is just right, everything they need for perfect growth and well being is supplied freely to them. Now this is a completely new way of living for the flowers and some, rather than persevering in this new way resort to the "tactics" of their old way of life (ie in the cave. the scripture calls this "walking after the flesh"). They don't grow well but they are never removed from the garden of God.

We cannot walk out of God's garden because we never walked into it. It was an act of God. He did the transplanting not us and he doesn't make mistakes. He knows who among us believes and who doesn't. No-one can fool God and claim one thing while being another. He looks after those who are His and He never lets them go, no matter how wayward a child they wish to be. If you are a son of God you remain forever a son of God. Now, whether you are a good son or a bad son is another issue but even if you are bad, the Lord is not mocked and all the bad works are burnt up and disposed of when we have our evaluation at the judgement seat of Christ. Some believers will be richly rewarded others not so much, some only get a resurrection body, but we all will dwell with the Lord. If it were not so there would be no hope (confidence) in having eternal life. But we do have this confidence because we have eternal life and the Lord assures us we will not perish. (Jn.3:16)

peace

 

[sawdust]

There are many verses that alluded to it. Heres but one:

"When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he saith, I will return unto my house whence I came out. And when he cometh, he findeth it swept and garnished. Then goeth he, and taketh to him seven other spirits more wicked than himself; and they enter in, and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first." Luke 11:24-26 (KJV)

Keep in mind that it took a supernatural happening for the unclean spirit to be cast out. So we have shown a before and after condition and then an 'after the after' condition because the individual did not fill the void with his 'new life'. Whatever he had, he not only lost but entered a state of hardness toward God. Heb 6:4-6 is a step further in this.

This verse is dealing with unbelievers not believers. It has no bearing on the topic.

peace

 

[sawdust]

Let's address the question:

"Brethren, if any among you wander from the truth, and another leads him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way has saved a soul from death, and covered many sins." James5:19-20

This is addressed to "brethren" --- saved brethren? Could not be else. Several interpretations are attempted to explain this one.

First, "two groups" --- specifically, "Brethren (saved), if any unsaved-lurking-amongst-you"....

But the subjects, are stated to "wander from the truth". If the subjects were "never-saved-lurking-AMONGST-the-saved", how can they wander from truth they've never HAD? And how can they be lead back to where they never were? The concept of "never-really-were-saved" just doesn't work.

Another interpretation, is that "they wandered but not enough to become UNSAVED". Yet --- they are lead back from "soul-death". He uses "Psuche" (same word as in Rev20:4), and "Thanatos" (which Strong's Greek Lexicon defines as "physical death with implication of eternity in Hell"). Additionally, he speaks of "sins will be covered" --- clearly asserting that the WANDERED, had unforgiven sins. So there's no way that "wandered", could "still be saved".

A third interpretation, is "This is HYPOTHETICAL, can't really happen; fatherly advice, and/or 100% effective MEANS by which God KEEPS us saved." It doesn't read to me as "hypothetical", and the "if" is not a condition that WILL be met.

If any wander from the truth --- conveys real possibility.
If he is lead back --- is also possible. The second "if" is implied by "and".

"If (A), and (B)".

How can this not be speaking of "if any truly saved wanders away from the truth of Jesus and His salvation, and another leads him back, his sins will be forgiven and his soul will be saved from eternal death"?

Here is an example:

If the doctrine of Eternal Security is true, then you Ben have wandered from the truth. If one of us here were to convince you of the error of your way then you would confess your sin (denying the truth) and God's promise of 1Jn.1:9 would come into effect and the multitude of your sins (the ones you are not aware of) would be covered under the Lord's gracious provision of you being cleansed from all unrighteousness.

Thanatos does not always have the implication of eternal death. It can mean simply physical death and no more. It can also mean death in a figurative sense.

In this case the death from which such a person is saved is the physical death that a believer would endure without grace because he is under maximum discipline from the Lord.

If I may be blunt Ben, when it comes to the doctrine of Eternal Security (OSAS), I say it is true ... you say it is false. One of us is wrong. One of us has wandered from the truth. Based on your logic, one of us must change our mind or one of us is going to hell. I know it is not me. I also know it is not you. Therefore what can be lost must be something other than our eternal salvation.



peace

 

[Ben johnson]

The delight is mine if you are encouraged, for it becomes my encouragement too.

A lot of questions in there Ben. I will do my best to explain what I mean.

When we believe in Christ (ie he died for our sin) the Lord does many things for us at that moment. I have a list on my computer that speaks of 40 different things. It is a bit long to post here so I will just note this one thing that speaks of the total outcome.

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! 2Cor.5:17

Now we know from a pratical point of view that not all the old has gone completely (not yet anyway). We still have our sin nature.

Let's discuss this --- it is the very existence of this "old nature", that causes us to sin. Whatever is "done to us by God", we still can, and so, sin. Thus --- it is a constant struggle to overcome the old nature. This struggle is recounted in Rom7 --- but the SOLUTION to the struggle, is in Rom8. We clearly, constantly, choose to walk either in sin, or in the Spirit. When Paul says "if we walk according to the flesh we must die", did he really mean "we COULD walk in the flesh", and did he really mean "if we do we must die?" Clearly the answer to both, is "yes".

We also have next to nothing in regards to the knowledge of Christ except the Gospel. But being a new type of lifeform demands a new type of lifestyle. This lifestyle is our spiritual life (the scripture quite often refers to it as "godliness") and is based on being filled with the Spirit and walking by faith. Our salvation is something God alone does including the giving of this new lifestyle but once we have it (by grace) we have a responsibility to live in it.

It can't be "God alone" --- I can give you passage after passage that warns us "do not walk as the Gentiles walk, darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life in God". (Eph4:17ff for instance.) If "God alone", then no further instruction "not to submit to wicked things, but submit to Christ", would be needed.

It is not a matter of breaking what God has ordained rather, it is a failure to live in accordance with it. But this in no way undoes all that the Father has given us in Christ. We remain indwelt by Christ, we still have eternal life, however if we fail to execute the lifestyle God has ordained we do not walk in fellowship with God. In such a case the Spirit is grieved and if we remain out of fellowship we will come under discipline. If we do not heed the discipline and confess our sin (1Jn.1:9) we will eventually quench the Holy Spirit. This is a most miserable position from which to live for a believer.

Please consider the reality that "non-fellowship-with-God", that "undisciplined" and "unconfessed sin", and that "quenched Spirit", by definition all mean "not saved".

The most important thing I wish to teach here, is that "salvation, is fellowship with God". One who believes in Jesus, fellowships with the Son, the Father, and the Spirit. One who does not fellowship, does not really believe.

In appearance, a believer who does not walk in the filling of the Spirit and by faith looks just like an unbeliever. They remain forever though, the new creature. Nothing in all creation can undo what the Lord God has done within and for each believer.

A "new creature", walks in sin??? One who walks in sin, is not a believer. True belief ABIDES in Jesus, and Jesus abides in the believer (participating in his life). Jesus does not abide in sin.

The best analogy I can think of is if we were flowers, our inheritance from Adam causes us to be born into a dank and dark cave, without light, without hope. Christ comes into the cave and sheds the light of His truth. Some flowers hate the light and turn away (continually), others see the light (by the grace of God) and welcome it (believe). If they believe, Christ picks them up and plants them in His garden. The soil is perfect, the warmth and light of the sun is just right, everything they need for perfect growth and well being is supplied freely to them. Now this is a completely new way of living for the flowers and some, rather than persevering in this new way resort to the "tactics" of their old way of life (ie in the cave. the scripture calls this "walking after the flesh"). They don't grow well but they are never removed from the garden of God.

The difference is that I perceive we are "in His garden, by faith"; and I perceive passages like Rom11:21-23 to say "if we do not continue in faith, we will be cut off".

We cannot walk out of God's garden because we never walked into it.

"If anone ENTERS through Me, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out and find pasture." Jn10:9 We walked into Him.

It was an act of God. He did the transplanting not us and he doesn't make mistakes. He knows who among us believes and who doesn't. No-one can fool God and claim one thing while being another.

One of the biggest misunderstandings of Scripture is the idea that "man is passive in his salvation, and God is active" --- it's completely the other way. In Matt7:24-27, man ACTS (believes). In Heb11:6, God RECEIVES (men who come to Him BY faith).

He looks after those who are His and He never lets them go, no matter how wayward a child they wish to be. If you are a son of God you remain forever a son of God. Now, whether you are a good son or a bad son is another issue but even if you are bad, the Lord is not mocked and all the bad works are burnt up and disposed of when we have our evaluation at the judgement seat of Christ. Some believers will be richly rewarded others not so much, some only get a resurrection body, but we all will dwell with the Lord. If it were not so there would be no hope (confidence) in having eternal life.

Please consider the words of Heb12:7-9, if WE are without God's discipline, then we are NOT sons but illegitimate.

But we do have this confidence because we have eternal life and the Lord assures us we will not perish. (Jn.3:16)

1Jn5:11-13 says "he who has the Son, has the eternal life." What if "having-the-Son", is a constant choice, by faith?

 

[Ben johnson]

If the doctrine of Eternal Security is true, then you Ben have wandered from the truth.

I believe "Eternal Security", is wrong; but I don't believe it is "salvation-busting". Plenty of Calvinists, and unlimited-atonement-ES people will be with Jesus when He returns.

If one of us here were to convince you of the error of your way then you would confess your sin (denying the truth) and God's promise of 1Jn.1:9 would come into effect and the multitude of your sins (the ones you are not aware of) would be covered under the Lord's gracious provision of you being cleansed from all unrighteousness.

"Unrighteousness", is doing bad deeds; I don't think either of us being wrong about this, would be "practicing wickedness".

Thanatos does not always have the implication of eternal death. It can mean simply physical death and no more. It can also mean death in a figurative sense.

In context, he speaks of "uncovered sins" --- no way can that mean "still saved".

Let's look at another verse of James', which uses "thanatos":
"God tempts no one, but each is tempted when enticed and carried away by his own lust. Then lust concieved births sin, and sin brings death. Do not be deceived, beloved brethren." 1:14-16

One who is "carried away by sin", is absolutely "spiritually dead". And this verse also asserts that "turning to sin, away from God, is a real danger".

In this case the death from which such a person is saved is the physical death that a believer would endure without grace because he is under maximum discipline from the Lord.

Please explain how someone who is "wandered away from the faith", whose sins are "uncovered", can die in his sins and still enter Heaven? I don't mean to be disrespectful, just want to understand how you see it.

If I may be blunt Ben, when it comes to the doctrine of Eternal Security (OSAS), I say it is true ... you say it is false. One of us is wrong. One of us has wandered from the truth. Based on your logic, one of us must change our mind or one of us is going to hell. I know it is not me. I also know it is not you. Therefore what can be lost must be something other than our eternal salvation.

The "saving-truth", is that salvation is by God's grace, through our faith; that Jesus indwells the believer, so too the Holy Spirit. That we are regenerated from the inside-out, and our deeds then consequent from Him-in-us. The "new man" (or "new woman"), means "regenerated", means "walking in Him by faith". If you agree with this, then you and I both abide in truth, and both will be with Him when He returns.

Make sense?

 

[Ormly]

This verse is dealing with unbelievers not believers. It has no bearing on the topic.

peace

Which verse/passage?? They are both dealing with believers.

 

[AnthonyE1778]

Are there any verses in Scripture that present truly saved people, becoming unsaved?

I am not for sure about this one, though I might understand someone pointing to Judas if they believe that he is in hell.

I don't believe that salvation can ever be lost because, frankly, that's the position that the Bible supports. Romans 8:28-30 for example: That chain is unbreakable. The passage may have to be mutilated or ignored for someone to still believe in conditional salvation after coming across those verses. However, I am ignorant of their interpretation so perhaps someone could enlighten us.

I have read that when Jesus says "no one can pluck them out of my hand" in John that this means that nobody outside of the own person can do it. The saved person may pluck himself out of Christ's hand, in other words. But this is refuted by Paul at the end of Romans 8:38-38, which say: (NASB from biblegateway.com) "38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Emphasis mine). Do you see what Paul is saying here? The "us" Paul refers to here are Christians (or so it seems) and he tells us that there is not "anything else in all creation" that can separate us. Aren't we apart of His creation?

 

[Ormly]

But this is refuted by Paul at the end of Romans 8:38-38, which say: (NASB from biblegateway.com) "38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Emphasis mine). Do you see what Paul is saying here? The "us" Paul refers to here are Christians (or so it seems) and he tells us that there is not "anything else in all creation" that can separate us. Aren't we apart of His creation?

But Paul didn't refute it in that passage. He wasn't even addressing the issue except to encourage a believer.

 

[AnthonyE1778]

But Paul didn't refute it in that passage. He wasn't even addressing the issue except to encourage a believer.

The encouragement is there to reinforce that there is absolutely nothing that can "separate us from the love that is in Christ Jesus" and that includes ourselves, right?

 

[Ormly]

The encouragement is there to reinforce that there is absolutely nothing that can "separate us from the love that is in Christ Jesus" and that includes ourselves, right?

No, it doesn't. That would mean our freewill has been taken from us making endurance unnecessary. For instance, this is a race we run, why, if you are correct? Why bother? I don't have to run if I don't feel like it, right, nothing can separate me from Christ. In fact, I can even run in the opposite direction and still be OK, right?

 

[nobdysfool]

No, it doesn't. That would mean our freewill has been taken from us making endurance unnecessary. For instance, this is a race we run, why, if you are correct? Why bother? I don't have to run if I don't feel like it, right, nothing can separate me from Christ. In fact, I can even run in the opposite direction and still be OK, right?

Showing an egregious misunderstanding of what it means to be secure in our salvation.

 

[Ormly]

Showing an egregious misunderstanding of what it means to be secure in our salvation.

Explain away BM.

 

[nobdysfool]

Explain away BM.

What you were suggesting is antinomianism. I don't believe that, no Calvinist I know believes that antinomianism is correct or biblical. Most if not all other Christians do not believe it either, except for a few off-brands. But they don't establish the norm.