Can Protestants be saved?

[DD2008]

faith is one of the things by which we receive grace... Protestants don't have access to the other things.. so although yes they can indeed be saved, and although YES faith is necessary for salvation - we're given more 'tools' in the Church to help us persevere in this faith.. more ways of receiving sanctifying grace.. and because of this, Luther was not right, because he said that the Church is not important and that the Pope is not important and rejected some teachings..the recent statement about Luther was meant to heal some divisions and try to find a common ground, but Luther did disagree with the Church on many things. He added the word 'alone' to faith alone.. and that is sort of confusing cause faith is never alone..

I didn't say they agreed with everything Luther did. They agree with Lutheran doctrine of Justification. They went so far as to issue a joint declaration of doctrine, which means they believe the same thing.

 

[Virgil the Roman]

Protestants can be saved. We are saved by Grace through faith in Jesus Christ. Luther was right and the Church of Rome agrees.

The quote below is from the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification by the Lutheran and the Roman Catholic Churches:

14.The Lutheran churches and the Roman Catholic Church have together listened to the good news proclaimed in Holy Scripture. This common listening, together with the theological conversations of recent years, has led to a shared understanding of justification. This encompasses a consensus in the basic truths; the differing explications in particular statements are compatible with it.
15.In faith we together hold the conviction that justification is the work of the triune God. The Father sent his Son into the world to save sinners. The foundation and presupposition of justification is the incarnation, death, and resurrection of Christ. Justification thus means that Christ himself is our righteousness, in which we share through the Holy Spirit in accord with the will of the Father. Together we confess: By grace alone, in faith in Christ's saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping and calling us to good works

Link: http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/p..._31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html

​

Uhm, Luther was dead wrong, man; he was a heretic buddy; and was excommunicated for it. He led [potentially] thousands to Hell through his Heresy. The Catholic Church and Luther certainly don't agree on Justification. Luther said that we're "justified by faith alone:" he changed the Bible man; taking out the Deuterocanon and inserting "alone" , in saying that Man is quote "saved by faith alone" in Holy Writ. Try reading up on the Council of Trent and on the Roman Catechism (the 1st Universal Catechism of the Catholic Church; a.k.a. "The Catechism of the Council of Trent): They're both pretty helpful; Try reading what the Council of Trent had to say on Justification. Here's a link for ya: The Council of Trent on Justification.

 

[DD2008]

Uhm, Luther was dead wrong, man; he was a heretic buddy; and was excommunicated for it. He led [potentially] thousands to Hell through his Heresy. The Catholic Church and Luther certainly don't agree on Justification. Luther said that we're "justified by faith alone:" he changed the Bible man; taking out the Deuterocanon and inserting "alone" , in saying that Man is quote "saved by faith alone" in Holy Writ. Try reading up on the Council of Trent and on the Roman Catechism (the 1st Universal Catechism of the Catholic Church; a.k.a. "The Catechism of the Council of Trent): They're both pretty helpful; Try reading what the Council of Trent had to say on Justification. Here's a link for ya: The Council of Trent on Justification.

If Luther's views on justification are wrong I can't tell you why the Roman Catholic Church would publish a joint declatarion on the doctrine of justification with the Lutheran Church. Wouldn't that mean that the Catholic Church and the Lutheran Church believe each other correct in the doctrine of justification? I think so.

It's on the Vatican website at the link given above.

So, I don't know what to tell you. Ask the vatican why they published a joint doctrine of justification declaration with the Lutherans. I didn't write it. Just pointing out what is there. However I do agree with it. Salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

Do you think that there is a distinction between saying we're saved "by grace through faith" and "by grace through faith alone"? Just wondering

 

[DD2008]

Do you think that there is a distinction between saying we're saved "by grace through faith" and "by grace through faith alone"? Just wondering

The document actually says Grace alone through faith. That is what Luther believed. He is just always quoted as saying faith alone which would imply works, however faith is not of us it is from God so the correct statement is Grace alone as the document both denominations agreed on says.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

The document actually says Grace alone through faith. That is what Luther believed. He is just always quoted as saying faith alone which would imply works, however faith is not of us it is from God so the correct statement is Grace alone as the document both denominations agreed on says.

perhaps the distinction between the Catholic theology on this and Luther's understanding is that according to Catholicism, we cooperate with grace.. in Protestantism this cooperation isn't really emphasized. (cooperation is basically - you let God help you, take you further in faith, accept grace, etc..)

 

[Katholish]

I don't see why it's misleading at all. They issued a joint declaration of doctrine. That's pretty clear. http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/p..._31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html

It's on the Vatican website. It doesn't get more "Catholic" than that.

Lest the Joint Declaration be misunderstood, the Vatican also put out "RESPONSES OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH TO THE JOINT DECLARATION OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH AND THE LUTHERAN WORLD FEDERATION
ON THE DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATION" http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/PCPULUTH.HTM

The Catholic Church is, however, of the opinion that we cannot yet speak of a consensus such as would eliminate every difference between Catholics and Lutherans in the understanding of justification. The Joint Declaration itself refers to certain of these differences. On some points the positions are, in fact, still divergent.

The Joint Declaration was meant, not as a complete doctrine of Justification, but a statement of some basic points within that doctrine that we can agree upon. It should also be noted that the Lutheran World Federation does not necessarily represent the teachings of Martin Luther himself. In particular, Martin Luther beleived strongly in predestination which is something many non-Calvanist protestants shy away from these days.

It should also be noted that the Joint Declaration doesn't the magisterial weight that an ecumenical council or even a papal encyclical would have. It wasn't signed by the Pope, but to the extent that is was approved by one of the curial offices, I am not trying to say that it has no weight at all.

 

[DD2008]

perhaps the distinction between the Catholic theology on this and Luther's understanding is that according to Catholicism, we cooperate with grace.. in Protestantism this cooperation isn't really emphasized. (cooperation is basically - you let God help you, take you further in faith, accept grace, etc..)

It basically says that personal consent is itself an effect of grace.

This is how they explained it in the document:

​

4. Explicating the Common Understanding of Justification
4.1 Human Powerlessness and Sin in Relation to Justification
19.We confess together that all persons depend completely on the saving grace of God for their salvation. The freedom they possess in relation to persons and the things of this world is no freedom in relation to salvation, for as sinners they stand under God's judgment and are incapable of turning by themselves to God to seek deliverance, of meriting their justification before God, or of attaining salvation by their own abilities. Justification takes place solely by God's grace. Because Catholics and Lutherans confess this together, it is true to say:
20.When Catholics say that persons "cooperate" in preparing for and accepting justification by consenting to God's justifying action, they see such personal consent as itself an effect of grace, not as an action arising from innate human abilities.
21.According to Lutheran teaching, human beings are incapable of cooperating in their salvation, because as sinners they actively oppose God and his saving action. Lutherans do not deny that a person can reject the working of grace. When they emphasize that a person can only receive (mere passive) justification, they mean thereby to exclude any possibility of contributing to one's own justification, but do not deny that believers are fully involved personally in their faith, which is effected by God's Word. [cf. Sources for 4.1].​

 

[Katholish]

20.When Catholics say that persons "cooperate" in preparing for and accepting justification by consenting to God's justifying action, they see such personal consent as itself an effect of grace, not as an action arising from innate human abilities.
21.According to Lutheran teaching, human beings are incapable of cooperating in their salvation, because as sinners they actively oppose God and his saving action. Lutherans do not deny that a person can reject the working of grace. When they emphasize that a person can only receive (mere passive) justification, they mean thereby to exclude any possibility of contributing to one's own justification, but do not deny that believers are fully involved personally in their faith, which is effected by God's Word. [cf. Sources for 4.1].​

This section of the Declaration is essentially pointing out a difference that remains between the Catholic and Lutheran understanding, but is also trying to point out that while there are differences, these differences are not as severe as would first seem.

 

[DD2008]

Lest the Joint Declaration be misunderstood, the Vatican also put out "RESPONSES OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH TO THE JOINT DECLARATION OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH AND THE LUTHERAN WORLD FEDERATION
ON THE DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATION" http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/PCPULUTH.HTM



The Joint Declaration was meant, not as a complete doctrine of Justification, but a statement of some basic points within that doctrine that we can agree upon. It should also be noted that the Lutheran World Federation does not necessarily represent the teachings of Martin Luther himself. In particular, Martin Luther beleived strongly in predestination which is something many non-Calvanist protestants shy away from these days.

It should also be noted that the Joint Declaration doesn't the magisterial weight that an ecumenical council or even a papal encyclical would have. It wasn't signed by the Pope, but to the extent that is was approved by one of the curial offices, I am not trying to say that it has no weight at all.

I'm not saying that the Catholic Church and the Lutheran Church are unified. I'm just pointing out that they released a joint declaration together on the doctrine of justification which means they agree which pertains to the thread because it means that indeed protestants can be saved.

If the Catholic Church and the Lutheran Church agreed about everything they would join.

 

[Katholish]

The Key is that the Protestants, at least most, have retained the sacrament of Baptism. That is the means by which they can be justified, if memory serves, I believe Trent refers to this as the material cause of justification.

Even if Protestants disagree (which I still argue that they do), they agree "enough" to have retained some understanding of Baptism. Doctrinal agreement is not necessary in detail, heretical Baptism is still valid.

 

[Debi1967]

Yes Protestants can be Saved but it has always been a teaching of the CC that they could even before this declaration ...Anyone that is Baptized in the Name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit may be Saved because Baptism is what unifies us all ... I quoted the pertinent CCC paragraphs for this earlier in the thread.

However it is also a teaching of the Church that one must be either formally or informally joined to Her to be Saved so therefore Baptism is a huge part of our beliefs on this matter as well.

 

[DD2008]

Yes Protestants can be Saved but it has always been a teaching of the CC that they could even before this declaration ...Anyone that is Baptized in the Name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit may be Saved because Baptism is what unifies us all ... I quoted the pertinent CCC paragraphs for this earlier in the thread.

However it is also a teaching of the Church that one must be either formally or informally joined to Her to be Saved so therefore Baptism is a huge part of our beliefs on this matter as well.

Pouring, sprinkling, or immersion?

Just Kidding.

 

[Debi1967]

Pouring, sprinkling, or immersion?

Just Kidding.

Which do you prefer all are acceptable forms

 

[Tu Es Petrus]

From the Catechism Of The Catholic Church:

(START)
Wounds to unity

817 In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame."269 The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ's Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism270 - do not occur without human sin:

Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.271

818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276

269 UR 3 § 1.
270 Cf. CIC, can. 751.
271 Origen, Hom. in Ezech. 9,1G 13,732.
272 UR 3 § 1.
273 LG 8 § 2.
274 UR 3 § 2; cf. LG 15.
275 Cf. UR 3.
276 Cf. LG 8.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

From the Catechism Of The Catholic Church:

(START)
Wounds to unity

817 In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame."269 The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ's Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism270 - do not occur without human sin:

Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.271

818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276

269 UR 3 § 1.
270 Cf. CIC, can. 751.
271 Origen, Hom. in Ezech. 9,1G 13,732.
272 UR 3 § 1.
273 LG 8 § 2.
274 UR 3 § 2; cf. LG 15.
275 Cf. UR 3.
276 Cf. LG 8.

I think this pretty much says it all

(btw, that's so funny how the smiley is there in the references...lol!)

 

[Debi1967]

I think this pretty much says it all

(btw, that's so funny how the smiley is there in the references...lol!)

They are accepted as our Brothers and Sisters yes but go and look at how in 1271 in the CCC ...it is by Baptism only and that puts them in union with the Church in part not in full communion with the Church but still they are Catholic whether they realize it or not.

 

[DD2008]

They are accepted as our Brothers and Sisters yes but go and look at how in 1271 in the CCC ...it is by Baptism only and that puts them in union with the Church in part not in full communion with the Church but still they are Catholic whether they realize it or not.[/quote]


I agree. I believe all with a Trinitarian baptism are Catholic. I said that once on Catholic answers and got drilled for it though.

 

[Debi1967]

They are accepted as our Brothers and Sisters yes but go and look at how in 1271 in the CCC ...it is by Baptism only and that puts them in union with the Church in part not in full communion with the Church but still they are Catholic whether they realize it or not.[/quote]


I agree. I believe all with a Trinitarian baptism are Catholic. I said that once on Catholic answers and got drilled for it though.

They can be very radical over there and I would say just stick with what you learn from the Church

 

[Katholish]

They are accepted as our Brothers and Sisters yes but go and look at how in 1271 in the CCC ...it is by Baptism only and that puts them in union with the Church in part not in full communion with the Church but still they are Catholic whether they realize it or not.[/quote]


I agree. I believe all with a Trinitarian baptism are Catholic. I said that once on Catholic answers and got drilled for it though.

That is probably because it isn't exactly true. The Church is visible, and only those who are visibly united with the Church are called Catholic. I believe this is covered in Pope Pius XII's encyclical Mystici Corporis. I know what you mean though, and it is true that all who are Baptised are part of the Mystical Body, but while on earth, membership in the Mystical Body and membership in the Church are not identicial, even though it is true that the Church herself is the Mystical Body. For instance, a Catholic guilty of Mortal Sin is no longer a living member of the Mystical Body, but remains a member of the Church.