Can Protestants be saved?

[DD2008]

That is probably because it isn't exactly true. The Church is visible, and only those who are visibly united with the Church are called Catholic. I believe this is covered in Pope Pius XII's encyclical Mystici Corporis. I know what you mean though, and it is true that all who are Baptised are part of the Mystical Body, but while on earth, membership in the Mystical Body and membership in the Church are not identicial, even though it is true that the Church herself is the Mystical Body. For instance, a Catholic guilty of Mortal Sin is no longer a living member of the Mystical Body, but remains a member of the Church.

That's where we disagreed at CA. I think the Church Universal (Catholic) consists of all the baptized. The person at CA thought it only consisted of those in full communion with the Pope.

 

[Debi1967]

That's where we disagreed at CA. I think the Church Universal (Catholic) consists of all the baptized. The person at CA thought it only consisted of those in full communion with the Pope.

That is not what we teach and he must have been rad trad

 

[Virgil the Roman]

I suppose for now then, I'm still stuck in the Catholic Reformation; as a Recalcitrant Traditionalist Catholic---who, understands what little he knows of the Catholic Faith, from the Councils of Trent, Nicea, and the First Vatican Council, rather than the Second Vatican Council. I'm just not up on Ecumenism---at least as many would like to present the Catholic Faith---as only like a gift-box, one that's shinier than the rest [the Protestant Sects], but the rest are still "gift"s too [as if one it seems to be a form of latitudianarianism, whereby folks are saying you can be saved as a Protestant as though it were an equally salvic but less "healthy" route to take spiritually. As if half the time, that I'd be better off languishing one of the myriad of Heretical Sectaries that I once went to. Yeah, I'm sorry; but the more I hang around these parts the more I get the feeling that the Catholic Church is no better than the various Protestant Sectaries at all. As if all were for naught I that I reverted back unto the Holy Catholic faith....uhm, yeah......
Oh, well, I'm just venting.....


(and for the record: I "dialogue" with my Protestant friends,----and my n0w-Evangelical brother; alas, it doesn't seem to accomplish much, for when I've visited an Evangelical Church (participating in a Non-Catholic sect----I'm pretty sure that's a mortal sin, at least, I've not had priest tell me otherwise when confessing it in the Sacrament of Penance)---folks, like my Protestant bretheren seem to think, that Oh, I'm tacitly accepting their particular branch of Christianity as "ok" when I obvious do not (or else I'd be a Protestant). It seems that visiting the Protestant Sects' one merely gives the false impression of tacit acceptance of error, or doctrinal differences as being "ok" or "valid."....yeah, and talking with my Evangelical older- brother.....doesn't help much, he doesn't seem to care about doctrine much at all........only that someone's at least "Christian" regardless of sect or particular doctrine----he's more doctrinally indifferent, so to speak.)

 

[Debi1967]

That is probably because it isn't exactly true. The Church is visible, and only those who are visibly united with the Church are called Catholic. I believe this is covered in Pope Pius XII's encyclical Mystici Corporis. I know what you mean though, and it is true that all who are Baptised are part of the Mystical Body, but while on earth, membership in the Mystical Body and membership in the Church are not identicial, even though it is true that the Church herself is the Mystical Body. For instance, a Catholic guilty of Mortal Sin is no longer a living member of the Mystical Body, but remains a member of the Church.

Thank you for correctin this as this is what I really meant to say sorry it came across so poorly I haven't done any good apologetics in a couple of years I am losing my touch

 

[DD2008]

That is not what we teach and he must have been rad trad

rad trad?

 

[Debi1967]

I suppose for now then, I'm still stuck in the Catholic Reformation; as a Recalcitrant Traditionalist Catholic---who, understands what little he knows of the Catholic Faith, from the Councils of Trent, Nicea, and the First Vatican Council, rather than the Second Vatican Council. I'm just not up on Ecumenism---at least as many would like to present the Catholic Faith---as only like a gift-box, one that's shinier than the rest [the Protestant Sects], but the rest are still "gift"s too [as if one it seems to be a form of latitudianarianism, whereby folks are saying you can be saved as a Protestant as though it were an equally salvic but less "healthy" route to take spiritually. As if half the time, that I'd be better off languishing one of the myriad of Heretical Sectaries that I once went to. Yeah, I'm sorry; but the more I hang around these parts the more I get the feeling that the Catholic is no better than the various Protestant Sectaries at all. As if all were for naught I that I reverted back unto the Holy Catholic faith....uhm, yeah......
Oh, well, I'm just venting.....

Raven this is not true as the One Holy Apostolic Catholic Church is still the only way to Salvation as we are taught we are not saying anything different what we are saying is that you can be Mystically tied to the Church and because of the Mystical unity because of the bond of Baptism that binds all Christians which is Biblical as well and we cannot speak against the Apostolic Teachings or that of Christ, that we know you can be Protestant and saved but it is up to the LORD to decide such things we cannot and they will have to answer to the LORD

 

[Debi1967]

rad trad?

Radical Traditionalist

 

[MoNiCa4316]

I think maybe what is hard to understand is the distinction between Church and the Mystical Body. They are one and the same, but at different levels.

If one is a Catholic, and in a state of grace, they're both in the Church and in the Mystical Body.

if one is a Catholic, and in a state of mortal sin, they're in the Church but are separated from God by their sin and so not in the Mystical Body. In other words, they're in the Church but have no access to the grace that God gives through it.

If one is a Protestant, they can be in the Mystical Body but - they only have limited access to the graces given through the Church - they only have faith and baptism and Scripture (although not necessarily properly understood). They're not in the visible Church.

It does get sort of mysterious sometimes...

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the Mystical Body reflects your relationship with God, and membership in the Church reflects your relationship with the visible Body of Christ on earth, which is not just an organization or a collection of people, but something God uses for our salvation as well. Another important point is that in the end the Church and the Mystical Body are the same thing, as I said, just at different levels. Additionally, only those in communion with the Church are called Catholics, yet it is important for the Catholics to be also in a state of grace to be saved. Others tied to the Mystical Body can be saved as well however they miss out on things, like Sacraments.

What God wants is for everyone to be equally in the Mystical Body and in the Church, and THIS is true unity.

 

[DD2008]

I suppose for now then, I'm still stuck in the Catholic Reformation; as a Recalcitrant Traditionalist Catholic---who, understands what little he knows of the Catholic Faith, from the Councils of Trent, Nicea, and the First Vatican Council, rather than the Second Vatican Council. I'm just not up on Ecumenism---at least as many would like to present the Catholic Faith---as only like a gift-box, one that's shinier than the rest [the Protestant Sects], but the rest are still "gift"s too [as if one it seems to be a form of latitudianarianism, whereby folks are saying you can be saved as a Protestant as though it were an equally salvic but less "healthy" route to take spiritually. As if half the time, that I'd be better off languishing one of the myriad of Heretical Sectaries that I once went to. Yeah, I'm sorry; but the more I hang around these parts the more I get the feeling that the Catholic is no better than the various Protestant Sectaries at all. As if all were for naught I that I reverted back unto the Holy Catholic faith....uhm, yeah......
Oh, well, I'm just venting.....

I understand where are differences come from now. I get almost everything from Vatican II and think Ecumenism is a great and necessary thing in order to do the will of Christ as stated in John 17.

I understand where you are coming from though. There are far right wing traditionalists in every denomination.

I think we're starting to get a little off topic though. Since we have established that protestants can be saved should we start another thread about the difference between old Catholicism and Catholicism since Vatican II?

 

[Debi1967]

I think maybe what is hard to understand is the distinction between Church and the Mystical Body. They are one and the same, but at different levels.

If one is a Catholic, and in a state of grace, they're both in the Church and in the Mystical Body.

if one is a Catholic, and in a state of mortal sin, they're in the Church but are separated from God by their sin and so not in the Mystical Body. In other words, they're in the Church but have no access to the grace that God gives through it.

If one is a Protestant, they can be in the Mystical Body but - they only have limited access to the graces given through the Church - they only have faith and baptism and Scripture (although not necessarily properly understood). They're not in the visible Church.

It does get sort of mysterious sometimes...

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the Mystical Body reflects your relationship with God, and membership in the Church reflects your relationship with the visible Body of Christ on earth, which is not just an organization or a collection of people, but something God uses for our salvation as well.

Very Good Monica Well done

 

[Debi1967]

I understand where are differences come from now. I get almost everything from Vatican II and think Ecumenism is a great and necessary thing in order to do the will of Christ as stated in John 17.

I understand where you are coming from though. There are far right wing traditionalists in every denomination.

I think we're starting to get a little off topic though. Since we have established that protestants can be saved should we start another thread about the difference between old Catholicism and Catholicism since Vatican II?

NO PLEASE DON"T

 

[DD2008]

Radical Traditionalist

Oh! Makes sense. Sometimes I have an issue putting 2 and 2 together.

 

[DD2008]

NO PLEASE DON"T

OK!

 

[Virgil the Roman]

I understand where are differences come from now. I get almost everything from Vatican II and think Ecumenism is a great and necessary thing in order to do the will of Christ as stated in John 17.

I understand where you are coming from though. There are far right wing traditionalists in every denomination.

I think we're starting to get a little off topic though. Since we have established that protestants can be saved should we start another thread about the difference between old Catholicism and Catholicism since Vatican II?

Why not; I'm not up on VII. I hope someday that it'll be suppressed as well-intentioned failure, but one that brought too much ambiguity and lack of clarity to the Faith. But let's save this for the the new thread. NEVER MIND. MAYBE SOMEOTHER TIME!

And yes, I assent to VII----doesn't mean I agree with it......but I still assent to it; for the One Holy Catholic Church promulgates it.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

I think that pre-VII and VII do not contradict each other, they just focus on different things.

 

[DD2008]

Why not; I'm not up on VII. I hope someday that it'll be suppressed as well-intentioned failure, but one that brought too much ambiguity and lack of clarity to the Faith. But let's save this for the the new thread. NEVER MIND. MAYBE SOMEOTHER TIME!

And yes, I assent to VII----doesn't mean I agree with it......but I still assent to it; for the One Holy Catholic Church promulgates it.

 

[Katholish]

That's where we disagreed at CA. I think the Church Universal (Catholic) consists of all the baptized. The person at CA thought it only consisted of those in full communion with the Pope.

DD2008, here is the quote from Pius XII's encyclical Mystici Corporis (On the Mystical Body). I place in bold the parts I think most pertinent to answering the question.

22. Actually only those are to be included as members of the Church who have been baptized and profess the true faith, and who have not been so unfortunate as to separate themselves from the unity of the Body, or been excluded by legitimate authority for grave faults committed. "For in one spirit" says the Apostle, "were we all baptized into one Body, whether Jews or Gentiles, whether bond or free."[17] As therefore in the true Christian community there is only one Body, one Spirit, one Lord, and one Baptism, so there can be only one faith.[18] And therefore, if a man refuse to hear the Church, let him be considered - so the Lord commands - as a heathen and a publican. [19] It follows that those who are divided in faith or government cannot be living in the unity of such a Body, nor can they be living the life of its one Divine Spirit.

 

[DD2008]

DD2008, here is the quote from Pius XII's encyclical Mystici Corporis (On the Mystical Body). I place in bold the parts I think most pertinent to answering the question.

From Lumen Gentium

15. The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. (14*) For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. (15*) They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ. They also recognize and accept other sacraments within their own Churches or ecclesiastical communities. Many of them rejoice in the episcopate, celebrate the Holy Eucharist and cultivate devotion toward the Virgin Mother of God.(16*) They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits. Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power. Some indeed He has strengthened to the extent of the shedding of their blood. In all of Christ's disciples the Spirit arouses the desire to be peacefully united, in the manner determined by Christ, as one flock under one shepherd, and He prompts them to pursue this end. (17*) Mother Church never ceases to pray, hope and work that this may come about. She exhorts her children to purification and renewal so that the sign of Christ may shine more brightly over the face of the earth.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_...s/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

 

[Sianelle]

Look it is really simple, - save three Protestants and you get a cool skateboard, save five and you get a bicycle, save 10 and you get an MP3 player. Now please play nicely together and no more squabbling.

Oy vey, the things that get discussed on this forum

 

[benedictaoo]

Raven this is not true as the One Holy Apostolic Catholic Church is still the only way to Salvation as we are taught we are not saying anything different what we are saying is that you can be Mystically tied to the Church and because of the Mystical unity because of the bond of Baptism that binds all Christians which is Biblical as well and we cannot speak against the Apostolic Teachings or that of Christ, that we know you can be Protestant and saved but it is up to the LORD to decide such things we cannot and they will have to answer to the LORD

exactly.

and we must ask, what about those denominations that adamantly reject baptism and claim it's nothing more then just getting wet or that it's a take it or leave it ritual that is only a symbol?

We're getting into such a bad area trying to answer these dilemmas, we can in no way ever answer.

There is only one true Church and that Church is the Catholic Church and we can know what is true simply by following the Church's teachings.

For those who reject the Church... what can we say? We have no idea what God is going to do with them but because Christ died for the entire world, all ppl, they have hope and we leave them to the mercy of God, and that is all any of us can do.

Can they be saved? Sure, anyone can be saved but will they? How do I know? I can even say that about myself! I'm going to say that about a whole large group of ppl? This argument make literally, no sense.

I never understood why we are so quick and allow folks to pressure us, to go around declaring Prots or Muslims or anyone "saved" when we can not even declare ourselves saved! and I know me a heck of a lot better then I know "Protestants".

Here is the bottom line that all involved is just going to have to accept... we all have the hope of salvation, Catholics and Protestants and even non Christians becuase Christ came into this world and saved it. God is no respecter of persons, anyone can be saved.

When you try to say who will be? You have totally crossed the line. No one but God knows 'who' will be saved. What is important to know is that all can be.