Can Protestants be saved?

[QuantaCura]

who is the savior, Christ or the Church? If I lived on a desert island and there was no Church does this mean I'm not saved?

See, you can't separate the two. Christ and the Church are intimately connected as Head to the Body as are all its members. If you were on a desert island, you would personally be the presence of the Church there and you would still be truly united to Christ and His Body. A mere body of water cannot separate you from the rest of the Body of Christ.

As Pope John Paul II said, "Belonging to the Church, the Mystical Body of Christ, however implicitly and indeed mysteriously, is an essential condition for salvation."
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/alpha/data/aud19950531en.html

 

[QuantaCura]

I think St. Joan says it well in the last quote:

795 Christ and his Church thus together make up the "whole Christ" (Christus totus). The Church is one with Christ. The saints are acutely aware of this unity:

[SIZE=-1]Let us rejoice then and give thanks that we have become not only Christians, but Christ himself. Do you understand and grasp, brethren, God's grace toward us? Marvel and rejoice: we have become Christ. For if he is the head, we are the members; he and we together are the whole man.... The fullness of Christ then is the head and the members. But what does "head and members" mean? Christ and the Church.230 [/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]Our redeemer has shown himself to be one person with the holy Church whom he has taken to himself.231 [/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]Head and members form as it were one and the same mystical person.232 [/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]A reply of St. Joan of Arc to her judges sums up the faith of the holy doctors and the good sense of the believer: "About Jesus Christ and the Church, I simply know they're just one thing, and we shouldn't complicate the matter."233[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]230 St. Augustine, In Jo. ev, 21, 8: PL 35, 1568.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]231 Pope St. Gregory the Great Moralia in Job, praef., 14: PL 75, 525A.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]232 St. Thomas Aquinas, STh III, 48, 2.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]233 Acts of the Trial of Joan of Arc.[/SIZE]

 

[Alexander Nevsky]

I think anyone who lives his/her life as a good Christian should live will be saved. Even if a Muslim or a Hindu who has lived with dignity, selfishlessness, love for others, justly, will be saved. After all we are all Gods children. Some of us are consciously serving Him, while others may serve Him withought knowing it. We Orthodox believe that Papacy and Protestantism are herecies. Nevertheless it is silly to think that Catholics and Protestants who have lived as good Christians, cannot be saved just because they did not indentify themselves as we do. Besides most of them have experienced Christianity in the way their forefathers did. This is the case mostly with Europeans - not so with Americans - where in Italy you've got the Romeocatholics, in Britain the Protestants, in Russia the Orthodox, and so forth.

 

[Sianelle]

A reply of St. Joan of Arc to her judges sums up the faith of the holy doctors and the good sense of the believer: "About Jesus Christ and the Church, I simply know they're just one thing, and we shouldn't complicate the matter."

I love St. Joan. Brilliant sensible theology which has enormously cheered me up on more than one occasion.

 

[DD2008]

According to Catholic teaching, can Protestants also be saved? I have heard it said "outside the Church there is no salvation", etc. So I'm not sure.

I've also heard people say that those who were born Catholic but left the Church of their own free will cannot be saved, but Protestants that don't know any better can be.

Just curious what the official stance is. Thanks.

Christ can save anyone.

Everyone can be saved.

 

[New_Found_Faith]

Thanks everybody.

A couple of other random questions (I'm a curious person):

-Who can "make" holy water? Just a priest/deacon or can a lay person do it as well?
-I know that any baptised person can baptise in case of an emergency. My question is what constitutes an emergency?

 

[MoNiCa4316]

Thanks everybody.

A couple of other random questions (I'm a curious person):

no prob, me too

-Who can "make" holy water? Just a priest/deacon or can a lay person do it as well?

only a priest.

-I know that any baptised person can baptise in case of an emergency. My question is what constitutes an emergency?

if you can't find a priest and the person is dying I think.

 

[eastcoast_bsc]

the Church does teach that there is no salvation outside the Church, however - Protestants ARE in the Church they're just not in full unity with it, they're not in communion.. they are separated but not totally outside. It's not so black and white. And yes, they can be saved.

it's in the Catechism:


Who belongs to the Catholic Church?
836 "All men are called to this catholic unity of the People of God. . . . And to it, in different ways, belong or are ordered: the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, called by God's grace to salvation."320
837 "Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who - by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion - are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but 'in body' not 'in heart.'"321 838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."322 Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."323 With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord's Eucharist."324

I think it is also in the book called the Bible. I may be wrong, but maybe someone here could check. If I recall, it goes something like this, 'believe in the Lord and you will be saved. I am n ot sure as to what the catechism says, But Jesus said that He would turn NO ONE away. Thus saith the Lord.

So again Jesus said to them, ‘Very truly, I tell you, I am the gate for the sheep. 8All who came before me are thieves and bandits; but the sheep did not listen to them. 9I am the gate. Whoever enters by me will be saved, and will come in and go out and find pasture. 10The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly.
11 ‘I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. 12The hired hand, who is not the shepherd and does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and runs away—and the wolf snatches them and scatters them. 13The hired hand runs away because a hired hand does not care for the sheep. 14I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, 15just as the Father knows me and I know the Father. And I lay down my life for the sheep. 16I have other sheep that do not belong to this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd. 17For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life in order to take it up again. 18No one takes* it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it up again. I have received this command from my Father.’

 

[MoNiCa4316]

I think it is also in the book called the Bible. I may be wrong, but maybe someone here could check. If I recall, it goes something like this, 'believe in the Lord and you will be saved. I am n ot sure as to what the catechism says, But Jesus said that He would turn NO ONE away. Thus saith the Lord.

Unless the person themselves turns away from Him. And one way people can potentially turn away from God is by substituting His will for their own.. this shows self love and pride, not love of God. We believe that God wants unity in the Church and calls people to that unity. If someone hears this calling and KNOWS it but refuses, they have willingly refused God's will, and this is a sin. Maybe they'll repent someday, maybe they will not, I don't know where they'll go heaven or hell, - that's not for me to say.. but we should always seek to be obedient. And this is exactly what I said before. We don't get saved by "faith alone", as if all we need is to say "yes I believe there's a God"! what is faith if we don't actually follow Him. Jesus said: "those who love Me would obey My commands"

God made one Church, not multiple churches at war with each other.

You're picking and choosing Bible verses here... put them together.. Remember James 2, which Luther didn't want in the Bible because it went against sola fide..

and - I DID say that Protestants CAN be saved, I was talking about people who know they SHOULD be Catholic but refuse God's calling - not from misunderstanding or confusion about doctrine - but hatred or pride. God knows all our hearts, we can't say who those people are... we don't make judgements on who will be saved and who won't be.

 

[LogosRhema]

Yes they can. It's in the CCC. I was saved & Christian before converting to the RCC. Being Catholic you are exposed to the fullness of Faith. Thats the difference in being Catholic Christian or protestant Christian.

Fullness of faith?

Is it still possible to be exposed otherwise without being Catholic?

 

[MoNiCa4316]

Fullness of faith?

Is it still possible to be exposed otherwise without being Catholic?

We do not believe so, cause the Sacraments are part of the fullness of faith.. and the (visible) Church has the role of interpreting Scripture. Look at the analogy about puzzle pieces I wrote about in my other post

I know that's probably not what you wished to hear, but this is what we believe.. we consider the Sacraments to be very important, instituted by Christ

Peace

 

[LogosRhema]

We do not believe so, cause the Sacraments are part of the fullness of faith.. and the (visible) Church has the role of interpreting Scripture. Look at the analogy about puzzle pieces I wrote about in my other post

I know that's probably not what you wished to hear, but this is what we believe..

Peace

How would it be explain, say in theory, if someone came acrossed a Bible on their own with no bias' at all. They know nothing of the Bible. He reads it and learns about it. Becomes a Christian in the sense of the teachings of the Bible.

Then went into a society where CC resides and visits. Hearing his story, say he rejects CC and moves on elsewhere. Knowing he has read the Bible on his own and knows it inside and out, yet were to reject the CC... What would you think?

Just out of curiosity!

 

[DD2008]

How would it be explain, say in theory, if someone came acrossed a Bible on their own with no bias' at all. They know nothing of the Bible. He reads it and learns about it. Becomes a Christian in the sense of the teachings of the Bible.

Then went into a society where CC resides and visits. Hearing his story, say he rejects CC and moves on elsewhere. Knowing he has read the Bible on his own and knows it inside and out, yet were to reject the CC... What would you think?

Just out of curiosity!

Personally, I think the person would be fine. Salvation is by Faith in Jesus Christ by the Grace of God the Father. It is not because of any Church organization. The person would probably join a branch of the Universal Church they thought best suited what they learned from the Bible, becaue he would want to share and grow his faith in a community of believers like himself. If he ever grew beyond that point I'm sure he would move to another community within the Universal Church that matched his position better. Eventually he may join the Catholic Church, or he may not. It doesn't matter. All that matters is following Christ.

John 10:27-30

[27] My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me;
[28] and I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand.
[29] My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
[30] I and the Father are one."

 

[LogosRhema]

Personally, I think the person would be fine. Salvation is by Faith in Jesus Christ by the Grace of God the Father. It is not because of any Church organization. The person would probably join a branch of the Universal Church they thought best suited what they learned from the Bible, becaue he would want to share and grow his faith in a community of believers like himself. If he ever grew beyond that point I'm sure he would move to another community within the Universal Church that matched his position better. Eventually he may join the Catholic Church, or he may not. It doesn't matter. All that matters is following Christ.

John 10:27-30

[27] My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me;
[28] and I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand.
[29] My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
[30] I and the Father are one."

Leaving out where he may go. Would this make you question your faith in the CC? Considering you got to know this man and he was truly wise in the word.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

How would it be explain, say in theory, if someone came acrossed a Bible on their own with no bias' at all. They know nothing of the Bible. He reads it and learns about it. Becomes a Christian in the sense of the teachings of the Bible.

Then went into a society where CC resides and visits. Hearing his story, say he rejects CC and moves on elsewhere. Knowing he has read the Bible on his own and knows it inside and out, yet were to reject the CC... What would you think?

Just out of curiosity!

that's pretty complex...

about fullness of faith - just linking it back to the previous topic
this person would not have the fullness of faith because - faith and Scripture are only two parts of it.. there's also Church, Sacraments, etc. God gave us many things to help us, because He knows it can be difficult to persevere in salvation or really grow spiritually (be sanctified).. all these things help us, because God uses them to give us graces

about your example:

I think that personal understanding of the Bible is not always the best. Many have started their own denominations or even separate religions because they relied so much on their own understanding. If you just pick up a Bible and read it, you'll see lots there about faith, and then some other passages about works.. and just from my experience, that can be difficult to put together. When I first read the NT, I wasn't really in any church, and I couldn't really reconcile Paul's words about salvation by faith and James 2.. then I met some Christians and they told me that we're saved by faith alone, and I thought, well they probably understand it better than I do. So I began believing this. Sometimes I'd get worries when I read about the sheep and the goats or James 2.. and some other passages.. but I tried to rationalize.. My pastor (I went to a non denom. church) made pretty good sermons, everything made sense. I believed him on everything. Then I started to get uncomfortable about some things and began praying, and eventually my beliefs started changing somehow, so I left that church and began looking for a new one.. and here I am.. lol.. so that's just my story. My point is - it's quite possible to misunderstand the Bible, because SO many different interpretations are possible. Remember how even the devil used Scripture to back up his statements. I believe God gave the Church the authority to interpret Scripture. Another point.. which translation is that person reading.. there are Bibles that say "faith alone", but this was actually inserted there by Martin Luther and no Bibles before the Reformation had that word "alone". Grace alone, yes, but not faith alone. So things like that could be misleading too. And I don't believe a person ever comes to their beliefs entirely on their own.. for example, with me, I read the Bible before I even really knew any Christians, but once I met some, they still influenced my interpretation of it.. I guess what I'm saying is that it's complex

Also, I'd have to ask WHY this person rejected the CC. Is it because of a huge theological difference. Or is it that he/she doesn't like the liturgy or thinks it's too traditional or sees "extra stuff" like veneration of relics? is it just not their style?
Cause that relates to my story too... another reason I became a Protestant when I first found my faith, even though I was baptized Orthodox as a child, is because I thought the modern churches were more "vibrant" and "interesting" and the worship was more "heartfelt". I believe that the Protestant church is where I needed to be at the time. I wasn't ready for all the other stuff. But eventually God showed me that it's true, and now I see that the liturgy is also beautiful and the worship is spiritual and sincere.. So - maybe this person in your example is supposed to start out Protestant, cause it fits him better and would help in his initial spiritual growth, but eventually God might lead him someplace else. So that's why I said we should always be open to God's will. Cause we never know what He might tell us next.

This is difficult to understand for some but there are times when God leads people to Protestant churches cause that's where they need to be at the time. But that time might not be forever.

God bless

 

[eastcoast_bsc]

Unless the person themselves turns away from Him. And one way people can potentially turn away from God is by substituting His will for their own.. this shows self love and pride, not love of God. We believe that God wants unity in the Church and calls people to that unity. If someone hears this calling and KNOWS it but refuses, they have willingly refused God's will, and this is a sin. Maybe they'll repent someday, maybe they will not, I don't know where they'll go heaven or hell, - that's not for me to say.. but we should always seek to be obedient. And this is exactly what I said before. We don't get saved by "faith alone", as if all we need is to say "yes I believe there's a God"! what is faith if we don't actually follow Him. Jesus said: "those who love Me would obey My commands"

God made one Church, not multiple churches at war with each other.

You're picking and choosing Bible verses here... put them together.. Remember James 2, which Luther didn't want in the Bible because it went against sola fide..

and - I DID say that Protestants CAN be saved, I was talking about people who know they SHOULD be Catholic but refuse God's calling - not from misunderstanding or confusion about doctrine - but hatred or pride. God knows all our hearts, we can't say who those people are... we don't make judgements on who will be saved and who won't be.

Christ is the head, and we are the body. we are the church, where 2 or 3 are gathered in my name, there I am.

I don't think we are necessarily disagreeing, but I believe the message of the Gospel is a simple one. I think it is man and Woman who complicate the Gospel.

I do understand the the message of the new testament, it is quite simple. One does not have to speak Latin, Greek or Aramaic.

‘Come to me, all you that are weary and are carrying heavy burdens, and I will give you rest. 29Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me; for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.’

 

[MoNiCa4316]

btw, yes I believe such a person can be saved.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

Leaving out where he may go. Would this make you question your faith in the CC? Considering you got to know this man and he was truly wise in the word.

that is an interesting question..

personally it would not cause me to doubt, cause I've met people who were atheists and then became Catholic.. so it goes both ways.. and also there are people who just walked into Catholic churches and *knew* that Christ is there in the Eucharist..without having any previous knowledge.. so I think it really depends on the person and where they're at and what God wants for them at the time!

 

[LogosRhema]

that is an interesting question..

personally it would not cause me to doubt, cause I've met people who were atheists and then became Catholic.. so it goes both ways.. and also there are people who just walked into Catholic churches and *knew* that Christ is there in the Eucharist..without having any previous knowledge.. so I think it really depends on the person and where they're at and what God wants for them at the time!

What a blessed way to look at this. I love my Catholic siblings in Christ, but I've studied the Catholic teachings, but in my heart it screams no!!! I've studied into without bias, but my heart continue to deny it. I'm not justifying myself over the CC or calling it wrong, I personally do not feel led in that direction. I do enjoy conversation with Catholics here on CF as they are typically more... Logically minded in their conversations rather than blind.

I am partially this man I speak of. I do not call myself "wise" in the word, but since I was 13 (even before then). I've studied the Bible. I have gone to church in between, but most of what I know, through our Savior, I have found on my own study time.

The man I referenced was a mirror of myself (for the most part)

And no I didn't go to a Universalism Denom ( I think thats what the other guy was saying). I go to a Nazarene Church, I don't suppose I'm Nazarene, I agree with most of the doctrine, but I go because its a very fruitful church thats close by. I like to consider myself Christian. I cringe when people ask me what denomination I hail from.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

Christ is the head, and we are the body. we are the church, where 2 or 3 are gathered in my name, there I am.

I said in my first post in this thread that the Church has both visible and invisible components. The invisible component includes all other Christians. But - that doesn't mean that there isn't a visible component right? Cause - wouldn't it be so sad if THIS is what the Church was meant to be...a bunch of denominations fighting each other and arguing.. didn't Christ pray for unity.. that's why we believe there is ONE Church. One truth. One doctrine. No relativism.. and God wants all Christians to have this unity in the Church.

I don't think we are necessarily disagreeing, but I believe the message of the Gospel is a simple one. I think it is man and Woman who complicate the Gospel.

the Gospel is both simple and complex. Just like God, just like the world. The whole idea is trust in the Lord and follow Him and you'll be alright. But - how do we follow Him? What helps us follow Him? what does that mean, etc.. that's where it gets more complicated.. that's where you get things like Sacraments and doctrines.. because although one can potentially believe some lies and be cut off from the Sacraments and STILL be saved thanks to God's mercy and their personal trust in Him.. (we know that God doesn't judge people based on what they have, but what they do with what they have, be it little or much) - it's still true that the person who DOES have the fullness of truth AND makes use of it, could go much further.

So many people say "I only need God" and then go ahead and reject the things He created to help us know Him better... the minimalist approach doesn't work in the long run *as well as* the full approach, because it's not only through faith and Scripture that we can know God, as I said - there's Sacraments, and we need a proper understanding of Scripture.

and here's a much more valid point IMO: let's say a person IS really trusting God.. well that is great, that means they would grow! But as they grow, wouldn't God lead them more into the Truth? So see the simple leads into the complex.

I do understand the the message of the new testament, it is quite simple. One does not have to speak Latin, Greek or Aramaic.

never said you do.. but if someone out there does speak these languages and they helped them see more clearly what the NT is saying, perhaps it would be wise to listen and consider..