Can people who disagree on abortion stop attacking each other?

[Hans Blaster]

Who said anything about lungs. It is how babies in the womb breathe, like fish breathe through gills. Big deal it changes nothing. Their air supply, so to speak. Big deal.

Humans breath with lungs. They are not fish. (Except cladisticly.)

 

[ralliann]

Humans breath with lungs. They are not fish. (Except cladisticly.)

petty, petty.

 

[Hans Blaster]

petty, petty.

As you can tell, the answer to the thread title question is clearly "no".

I'm not sure how we got on this tangent, but I suspect it is related to the Jewish notion of a "breath of life" entering a newborn.

 

[ralliann]

As you can tell, the answer to the thread title question is clearly "no".

I'm not sure how we got on this tangent, but I suspect it is related to the Jewish notion of a "breath of life" entering a newborn.

Man's life is in the blood. Life for life =blood for blood, Oxygen is carried to our bodies by the blood

Gen 9:4 But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.
5 And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man’s brother will I require the life of man.
6 Whoso sheddeth man’s blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

Able's blood cried to God
Ge 4:10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother’s blood crieth unto me from the ground. {blood: Heb. bloods }
Ge 4:11 And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother’s blood from thy hand;

Christ's blood, better
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

God as the Judge of all the earth does not mean God sits and and watches to find every wrong we do. No, the righteous (even in death) call upon him. Just like a courtroom. Someone besides the judge brings charges against you. The judge is to give justice between both parties.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Man's life is in the blood. Life for life =blood for blood, Oxygen is carried to our bodies by the blood

Gen 9:4 But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.
5 And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man’s brother will I require the life of man.
6 Whoso sheddeth man’s blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

Able's blood cried to God
Ge 4:10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother’s blood crieth unto me from the ground. {blood: Heb. bloods }
Ge 4:11 And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother’s blood from thy hand;

Christ's blood, better
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

These verses fail to mention oxygen (or even breathing). They are not medically relevant.

 

[ralliann]

These verses fail to mention oxygen (or even breathing). They are not medically relevant.

Well, the nostrils, are not what carry the oxygen throughout your body, nor do the lungs carry oxygen throughout your body. None of your organs do that. It is your blood which fills all your flesh with the oxygen it needs to live. Petty, petty.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Well, the nostrils, are not what carry the oxygen throughout your body, nor do the lungs carry oxygen throughout your body. None of your organs do that. It is your blood which fills all your flesh with the oxygen it needs to live. Petty, petty.

Would you care to show that any biblical writer knew that blood carried dissolved oxygen to body tissues? If you can't then mentions of blood in the bible are irrelevant to the understanding of respiration.

 

[ralliann]

Would you care to show that any biblical writer knew that blood carried dissolved oxygen to body tissues? If you can't then mentions of blood in the bible are irrelevant to the understanding of respiration.

???? You and I know it does. The modern medical details do not really matter for the ancients at all. And it was taken seriously as life. Do you think the Hebrews understood this scripture as if it were a natural (human to human) biological exchange?
Ge 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. This is not the account of biological function on the part of God, nor Adam. It was about the soul of a man

 

[ralliann]

Of course it is a possible consequence. No one with any knowledge of the debate contests that. The single point I am arguing and what everyone keeps trying to move away from is the idea that consequence is not the same as consent. That something is a possible outcome does not mean people are consenting to the outcome and are locked into that consent.


I do not care what the bible has to say on the subject. I am not a believer and not bound to follow its precepts.

I understand that. This is a christian forum and Christians are here.....so I will include them.

 

[Belk]

I understand that. This is a christian forum and Christians are here.....so I will include them.

Ah gotcha. Comments for your fellow Christians. No worries there.

 

[ralliann]

Ah gotcha. Comments for your fellow Christians. No worries there.

Some have even spoken about the soul, having one yet etc. Also others speak of the breath of life, in making man a living soul. etc. Which is getting into non biological elements of scripture. So it is somewhat unavoidable at points.

 

[Belk]

Some have even spoken about the soul, having one yet etc. Also others speak of the breath of life, in making man a living soul. etc. Which is getting into non biological elements of scripture. So it is somewhat unavoidable at points.

Totally expected when dealing in these areas. I certainly would expect Christians to vote and expound upon their beliefs. I just find some of them expect it to influence me in debate so I try to be certain to let them know it is not something that factors into my thinking.

 

[rturner76]

Yeah, they just need her for everything else and that is the responsibility people are truly avoiding by getting an abortion.

Correct, that is the choice some women make.

 

[ralliann]

Totally expected when dealing in these areas. I certainly would expect Christians to vote and expound upon their beliefs. I just find some of them expect it to influence me in debate so I try to be certain to let them know it is not something that factors into my thinking.

I understand that. The issue is, Christians here using the same ideology and terms. As I said the bible speaks of accidental things clearly. It just makes it unavoidable because of the mixing of ideas.

 

[Hans Blaster]

???? You and I know it does. The modern medical details do not really matter for the ancients at all. And it was taken seriously as life. Do you think the Hebrews understood this scripture as if it were a natural (human to human) biological exchange?

Lose all you blood and you die. Yes, people knew that. But, they didn't know why or that it was tied to breathing. (Galen may have figured that out, but that is just after the time of Jesus.)

Ge 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. This is not the account of biological function on the part of God, nor Adam. It was about the soul of a man

Don't care what your scripture says.

 

[ralliann]

Lose all you blood and you die. Yes, people knew that. But, they didn't know why or that it was tied to breathing. (Galen may have figured that out, but that is just after the time of Jesus.)


Don't care what your scripture says.

You asked???

 

[Hans Blaster]

You asked???

You're right. And in that little scripture the author is confusing breathing and "souls". Seems like its part of the argument that biblically life begins with breath.

 

[Kylie]

Why would I say anything different? I agree with biology. If you know what biology says then you have my answer.

As I said, I want YOUR answer.

Can you provide one or not?

 

[coffee4u]

When he received the breath of life he was made alive like all of our children. Are you saying our children do not require the breath of life?

Adam was not made alive like all our children. He was formed from dirt, he had no mother and no father and no umbilical cord. He was unique.

We are only told about how God gave Adam the 'breath of life' by God directly breathing into his nostrils. Eve was also alive but no details are given into how she came to breath. We can't assume to know details that are not given.
Genesis 2:7
Then the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

God did not breath into our nostrils in this manner yet we all have the breath of life from Him.
Genesis 6:17
I am going to bring floodwaters on the earth to destroy all life under the heavens, every creature that has the breath of life in it.
The Bible doesn't say how we came to have the breath of life either, only that we do. Nowhere does it say a baby gains the breath of life when it takes its first breath outside the womb.

Oxygen from the mother's blood is transferred across the placenta to the fetus through the umbilical cord. It begins doing this at 5-6 weeks gestation.

How many lives to you claim that it is? If one, then you're admitting that life begins after conception. If two, then you're arguing an impossibility.

An egg gets fertilized and becomes a zygote. A single zygote is a single life. If it splits into two there are now two lives. Pretty basic stuff.

 

[coffee4u]

Grant it to whom? We've already established that the unborn doesn't yet exist. Permission is something you grant to a person who actually exists.

Grant to their own bodies. The Zygote is half the mother and half the father, it isn't an alien entity.