Can people still die after the Millenium?

Spiritual Jew · Mar 3, 2023

Maria Billingsley said:
Thanks for sharing! Here are my answers.
It's very clear that the thousand years has a beginning and an end, so I'm not sure why you would deny its existence altogether. You don't have to deny its existence in order be an Amil. You understand that, right?
I understand the Amil view as an undetermined amount of time and not a literal 1000 years, so it can't be considered millennial. That time frame is forever as we have a King right now and forever and He rules right now and forever. I do believe there will be a New Jerusalem after the judgment day and this will happen in a "twinkle of an eye".

I am an Amil as well, but not a partial preterist like you. So, I do not believe that the thousand years is a literal one thousand years. However, it's VERY clear that the thousand years has a beginning and an ending, which you are inexplicably denying.

Revelation 20:3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.

Can you see here that John talked about the thousand years ending and then AFTER THAT Satan is set free for a short time? What is your understanding of this verse? It does not line up with your belief that the thousand years "is forever". Yes, Jesus will reign forever, but the thousand years is not forever. Just because it will end doesn't mean His reign will end. What is says will end when the thousand years ends is Satan's binding, not Christ's reign.

Maria Billingsley said:
Do you deny that Satan's little season will occur, too? If not, then when will it happen if not after the thousand years ends?

I do not deny that he has influence on the flesh and that the adversary is with us while we are in the flesh. But I take it as an undetermined amount of time until the end when he will be cast into the LOF.

I don't understand what you were trying to say here. Revelation 20:3 that I quoted above as well as verse 7 make it very clear that Satan's little season occurs AFTER the thousand years ends.

Revelation 20:7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison

It really couldnt possibly be more clear that the thousand years will end and then AFTER THAT Satan's little season occurs. Can you explain to me why you deny that? How do you interpret Revelation 20:7?

Maria Billingsley said:
How do you interpret these verses:

Revelation 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

The binding of Satan represents the victory of Jesus Christ of Nazareth over the powers of darkness accomplished on the cross. This can not change. So the loosing of Satan is symbolic for his ability to still attack the flesh because of its weakness however, the spirit is untouchable. This has always been the case and will happen until he is thrown into the LOF. It doesn't have to be only for 1000 years.

Where is this stated in Revelation 20? Why does Revelation 20 talk about him being loosed when the thousand years ends if "this has always been the case"?

Maria Billingsley said:
Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

These verses are very clear that the thousand years will end and then Satan will be loosed at that point. It couldn't possibly be more clear. Yet, you are trying to say that there is no thousand year period, assuming you understand that the "Millennium" is just a term used to reference the thousand years?

Yes, I will stick to no 1000 year reign and keep it at an undetermined amount of time until the end.

So, you will stick to a belief that clearly contradicts what is stated in Revelation 20 verses 3 and 7. I'm not talking about the thousand years being a literal one thousand years, which I agree is not the case, but I'm talking about not acknowledging that the thousand years has an end after which Satan's little season occurs. I wish I knew why that was the case.

Spiritual Jew · Mar 3, 2023

parousia70 said:
All Tears?
Even tears of Joy?
So we won't be allowed or able to cry tears of Joy in the New H&E?
Just an even keel, super-prozac like existence?
I don't buy it.

That's your takeaway from Revelation 21:4? Are you being serious here? Clearly, the context is in relation to there being no more "death, mourning, crying or pain", so it's obviously not talking about tears of joy. Good grief.

You noticeably did not specifically address anything I said in my post, so I can see I'm wasting my time here. If you want to insist on interpreting Isaiah 65:17-25 in such a way that contradicts Revelation 21:1-4, then that's your choice.

Spiritual Jew · Mar 3, 2023

claninja said:
Paul states hades has no more victory when the perishable puts on the imperishable.

“54When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:“Death is swallowed up in victory.”55“O death, where is your sting? O hades, where is your victory?

Paul ties the power and sting of death and sin to the “law”

“The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.”

I personally believe the saints “rise” to heaven upon death and not hades (hades has no more victory over the saints), and that the law has no more power over the saints. Much of the present day church believes this same thing, and that this transition took place in the first century.

Are you saying you believe they rise bodily to heaven upon death? Scripture teaches that our bodies will all be changed at the same time which will be when the dead in Christ are raised (1 Cor 15:50-54) at the last trumpet, which will be when Jesus Christ comes again (1 Cor 15:22-23, 1 Thess 4:14-17). So, how does your view line up with that?

Spiritual Jew · Mar 3, 2023

parousia70 said:
The passage does not mention the last trump. I get that you personally infer the connection, but it seems disengenous to clam "the passage indicates it".

The passage you referenced here was the one DavidPT mentioned in the post you were responding to, which was 1 Corinthians 15:22-23. It's very easy to discern that this passage should be connected to the one referencing the last trump. Just compare them.

1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1 Cor 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Both passages reference the resurrection of the dead in Christ (they that are Christ's). The first passage indicates that will happen "at his coming" and the other one indicates that it will happen "at the last trump". So, that obviously places the timing of His coming at the time of the sounding of the last trumpet.

Maria Billingsley · Mar 3, 2023

Spiritual Jew said:
I am an Amil as well, but not a partial preterist like you. So, I do not believe that the thousand years is a literal one thousand years. However, it's VERY clear that the thousand years has a beginning and an ending, which you are inexplicably denying.

Revelation 20:3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.

Can you see here that John talked about the thousand years ending and then AFTER THAT Satan is set free for a short time? What is your understanding of this verse? It does not line up with your belief that the thousand years "is forever". Yes, Jesus will reign forever, but the thousand years is not forever. Just because it will end doesn't mean His reign will end. What is says will end when the thousand years ends is Satan's binding, not Christ's reign.

I don't understand what you were trying to say here. Revelation 20:3 that I quoted above as well as verse 7 make it very clear that Satan's little season occurs AFTER the thousand years ends.

Revelation 20:7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison

It really couldnt possibly be more clear that the thousand years will end and then AFTER THAT Satan's little season occurs. Can you explain to me why you deny that? How do you interpret Revelation 20:7?

Where is this stated in Revelation 20? Why does Revelation 20 talk about him being loosed when the thousand years ends if "this has always been the case"?

So, you will stick to a belief that clearly contradicts what is stated in Revelation 20 verses 3 and 7. I'm not talking about the thousand years being a literal one thousand years, which I agree is not the case, but I'm talking about not acknowledging that the thousand years has an end after which Satan's little season occurs. I wish I knew why that was the case.

Thanks for sharing. I have said all I can say about my position.
Blessings.

Andrewn · Mar 4, 2023

parousia70 said:
I believe it's soma pneumatikon and soma psychikon. Normally I'm not a stickler for spelling and typos, but big fancy words like that deserve to be spelled correctly if you're going to throw them around like that, IMO. When they aren't, it comes across as someone merely trying to appear intellectual.

Is this the best defense of your position that you could come up with? Let's forget about the issue and discuss whether the Greek "kappa" should be rendered in the English or Latin alphabet with a "c" or a "k"?!! It is not usually like you to stoop this low. This is silly.

Andrewn · Mar 4, 2023

Spiritual Jew said:
I am an Amil as well, but not a partial preterist like you. So, I do not believe that the thousand years is a literal one thousand years. However, it's VERY clear that the thousand years has a beginning and an ending,

Partial preterits believe just like you that the thousand years is not literal and that it has a beginning and an ending coinciding with the Church Age. Full preterists are very different. They believe the Millenium was from King David's reign to 70 AD and that we are now in the new heaven and new earth, as expressed by certain participants in the thread.

claninja · Mar 4, 2023

Spiritual Jew said:
Are you saying you believe they rise bodily to heaven upon death? Scripture teaches that our bodies will all be changed at the same time which will be when the dead in Christ are raised (1 Cor 15:50-54) at the last trumpet, which will be when Jesus Christ comes again (1 Cor 15:22-23, 1 Thess 4:14-17). So, how does your view line up with that?

Scripture also associates the mortal putting on immortality with hades having no more power (1 Corinthians 15:54-56) and putting on of our heavenly homes when our earthly tent is destroyed, so we may not be naked but further clothed (2 Corinthians 5:1-5).

2 Corinthians 15:54-56 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55O death, where is thy sting? O hades, where is thy victory? 56The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

2 Corinthians 5:1-5 “1For we know that if the tent that is our earthly home is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2For in this tent we groan, longing to put on our heavenly dwelling, 3if indeed by putting it ona we may not be found naked. 4For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.”

So the “body” you are asking about would be the “eternal house in the heavens built by God” given to believer upon “rising” to heaven after their earthly tent is destroyed, since hades has no more power. I believe this occurred in the first century, first with the dead saints in hades rising to heaven, and then to the living who now never have to go to hades. (specifically when Christ came in judgment upon Israel, while i know others believe this occurred at the cross).

As to your passages, IF Paul is referring to our literal earthly flesh bodies reassembling from the dust they went to and then flying up into the sky, I absolutely agree, this hasn’t happened yet and is still future.

So, do you believe hades still has power over the dead saints today, and that the dead saints have not yet received their heavenly home, as both are associated with the mortal putting on immortality according to 1 corinthians 15:55-56 and 2 Corinthians 5:1-5?

claninja · Mar 4, 2023

LW97Nils said:
We like to think of that verse:
"There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed." Isaiah 65:20

Or in Brenton's Old Testament:
"Neither shall there be there any more a child that dies untimely, or an old man who shall not complete his time: for the youth shall be a hundred years old, and the sinner who dies at a hundred years shall also be accursed"

But is it in the Millenium? Let's just a few verses back:
"For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying."

So, it IS talking about the time after the Millenium - eternity. At least that's how I understand it.

We see also a distinction between those two phases - Millenium and eternity.

"Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all." 1 Corinthians 15:24-28

I will confess I do not have the answer on that matter. Looks like God does not want us to know yet, yet it's interesting, since every scripture is important, isn't it? What is the end? The Greek word translated as "end" is "telos", which can also mean "a toll" or "a limit". It can refer to either the second coming, armaggedon, but it can also refer to the end of the Millenial Reign, which is described in Revelation 20:7-9.

Also, notice it states He will reign TILL all enemies are defeated, then He will deliver the kingdom up to the Father. Of course, it won't be until then that death will be cast into the Lake of Fire (Revelation 20:14). However, death, it seems, still seems to be there as a form of discipline. Notice that it is described as the last enemy that will be destroyed. Yes, death. Not Satan. Not the ungodly. Shouldn't that give us thinking? Like I said, I still lack of the answers.

Maybe we should read the Apocrypha. I am aware many oppose it. But it was widespread by the early church.

That are my thoughts so far. What are yours? Do you have a better explaination?

While death and hades exist during the millennium (they aren’t thrown into the lake of fire until AFTER the millennium and Satans little season ends), we find that none of those that live and reign with Christ during the millennium are removed from death and hades for judgment after the millennium, only “the rest of the dead” are.

Revelation 20:5 5The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were end

Revelation 20:13-14 13And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire

So from solely reading the text (before interpreting this difficult symbolic and parabolic vision) it seems there is no death or hades for those that live again and reign with Christ as a kingdom of priests during the millennium. The sea, Death, and hades, in the context of revelation 20, contain the “rest of the dead” for judgement

sovereigngrace · Mar 4, 2023

claninja said:
Paul states hades has no more victory when the perishable puts on the imperishable.

“54When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:“Death is swallowed up in victory.”55“O death, where is your sting? O hades, where is your victory?

Paul ties the power and sting of death and sin to the “law”

“The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.”

I personally believe the saints “rise” to heaven upon death and not hades (hades has no more victory over the saints), and that the law has no more power over the saints. Much of the present day church believes this same thing, and that this transition took place in the first century.

Not so: multiple Scripture shows us receiving our glorified bodies at the second coming. Full Preterists deny that with their fixation with Titus and AD70.

claninja · Mar 5, 2023

sovereigngrace said:
Not so: multiple Scripture shows us receiving our glorified bodies at the second coming. Full Preterists deny that with their fixation with Titus and AD70.

I guess I’m confused as to what you are responding to? I agreed the redemption of our earthly fleshly bodies from the graves is still future.

As to the “not so”, you don’t agree the saints rise to heaven upon death? Or is it that you don’t agree that hades no longer has power over the saint?

As shown with 1 Corinthians 15:55-56 and 2 Corinthians 5:1-5, hades has no power and the saints are clothed with the heavenly home in association with the mortal putting on immortality.

Timtofly · Mar 5, 2023

Spiritual Jew said:
Tell me, was John unaware of what Isaiah had written in Isaiah 65:17-25 regarding the new heavens and new earth? I'm sure he was not unaware of it. And, yet, he said this regarding the conditions of the new heavens and new earth:

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

So, did John not now what he was talking about when he said there would be no more death when he said there would be no more death at that point? Was he blatantly contradicting Isaiah? Or is it possible you are misinterpreting Isaiah? I think the latter.

Isaiah was describing eternity in a way that his readers could understand at the time. The concept of eternity was foreign to people in those days. It didn't become a concept that people could grasp until Jesus came to die for our sins and give us the hope of eternal life.

If you think Isaiah 65:20 implies that children would literally die at 100 years old when the new heavens and new earth are ushered in, then how do you explain this verse:

Isaiah 65:19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.

If Isaiah 65:20 is talking about people dying then does that mean no one would mourn their deaths since it says in the previous verse "the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying"? Clearly, that would not make any sense. So, it seems that you are not taking all of scripture, including even the previous verse, into account when interpreting Isaiah 65:20.

Your concept of eternity is never declared in Scripture. That is a human concept forced onto Scripture. No one ever lives in eternity.

We live in one single creation now. We will live in a totally different creation at some point. Both are creations and neither one is called "eternity".

If you are so strict in creation having a beginning and end, how can you apply that to eternity that has no beginning nor ending?

Eternity cannot have a beginning with no end. Eternity is the contrast of creation, that does have a beginning and an end. Life is everlasting and eternal, not creation. Life can exist in the limits of each and every creation that God deems as His will.

Isaiah is not describing eternity in language we can understand. That is your interpretation, and the wrong one at that. Isaiah is not describing the Next creation as we find in Revelation 21.

Do you not comprehend there was a new heaven and earth after Noah's Flood? It also could be described that no one remembered the former world, prior to the Flood. That perfect world that was destroyed by the sin and greed of disobedient sons of God. Sons of God that no one remembers were created on the 6th day. In fact many today call them angels. They are not, nor ever were.

Isaiah is applying his knowledge of Genesis, to describe life in this creation, after the Second Coming.

John calls Isaiah's new heaven and earth, the 1,000 year reign of Christ, because it starts out with a physical resurrection, of some people who were just killed. But you symbolize away John's literal description, to make up your own personal doctrine of a Millennium. Isaiah is not being figurative nor symbolic either. Isaiah has literal people planting literal vineyards, and building literal houses to subdue the earth. The only symbolism is people are equated with trees.

The NHNE in Revelation 21 do not need to be subdued not brought under subjection by man's dominion. In fact God and the Lamb are physically in charge over the next creation. What happens can only be found in Revelation 21 and 22. Isaiah 65 is still about current creation. It is about the new heaven and earth after the baptism by fire, just like there was a new heaven and earth after the baptism of water.

sovereigngrace · Mar 5, 2023

claninja said:
I guess I’m confused as to what you are responding to? I agreed the redemption of our earthly fleshly bodies from the graves is still future.

As to the “not so”, you don’t agree the saints rise to heaven upon death? Or is it that you don’t agree that hades no longer has power over the saint?

As shown with 1 Corinthians 15:55-56 and 2 Corinthians 5:1-5, hades has no power and the saints are clothed with the heavenly home in association with the mortal putting on immortality.

I think you are fully aware of the standard orthodox view of Amils, Premils and Postmils. We do not receive our glorified bodies at death but at the future return of Christ.

claninja · Mar 5, 2023

sovereigngrace said:
I think you are fully aware of the standard orthodox view of Amils, Premils and Postmils. We do not receive our glorified bodies at death but at the future return of Christ.

Correct, and i already agreed with that. But that doesn’t answer my question. What was the “not so” in regards? The Christian rising to heaven upon death? Or hades no longer having power over the believer?

sovereigngrace · Mar 5, 2023

claninja said:
Correct, and i already agreed with that. But that doesn’t answer my question. What was the “not so” in regards? The Christian rising to heaven upon death? Or hades no longer having power over the believer?

Ok then. I must have misunderstood you. Sorry. We are agreed on all 3 matters then.

claninja · Mar 5, 2023

sovereigngrace said:
Ok then. I must have misunderstood you. Sorry. We are agreed on all 3 matters then.

no worries

Timtofly · Mar 5, 2023

sovereigngrace said:
Regardless of what you have been taught, tears will be expressly wiped away. This did not happen in AD70. Death will be finally banished. This did not happen in AD70. The curse (the bondage of corruption) that is all around us will be eternally removed. This did not happen in AD70. This forbids your whole thesis and fixation with Tutus and AD70.

That also should apply to your fixation that the Millennium started in the first century. It cannot start until the Second Coming, when Christ is physically on the earth.

Christ did not physically start ruling in the first century, for exactly the same reason the Second Coming did not happen then.

What happened in the first century is that Israel was set aside until the fulness of the Gentiles comes in. A period when it did not matter if one was Gentile or Jew, Greek or Roman. There was not a Second Coming, and no Babylonian empire set up by Satan. Satan was not ultimately cast out of heaven, nor bound in the pit. All events that happen at the Second Coming, that many here move around to satisfy their eschatological bias.

Tears will be wiped away at the start of the Millennium. No one will mourn the death of one who blatantly disobeys God during the Millennium. No one will die of natural causes period. All will have and be born with permanent incorruptible physical bodies. None of Adam's dead corruptible flesh is ever declared to exist in the Millennium. Premil are dead wrong about death in the Millennium.

That does not mean a premil should jump ship and become even more wrong in Amil. They should stop accepting the wrong view of the Millennium, and see that all have permanent incorruptible physical bodies. They were physically resurrected, and those, the sheep and wheat, who are changed without tasting physical death. Don't you accept Paul when his states all will be changed? Paul did not say since all will be changed there won't be a future millennial reign of Christ. He said after the Second Coming, Christ must reign, then comes the end.

Spiritual Jew · Mar 7, 2023

Andrewn said:
Partial preterits believe just like you that the thousand years is not literal and that it has a beginning and an ending coinciding with the Church Age.

Yes, most partial preterists believe that way, but it seems that you didn't read the full conversation that I was having with her. She is a partial preterist and not a full preterist, yet somehow she does not believe that the thousand years has an ending.

RandyPNW · Mar 8, 2023

LW97Nils said:
We like to think of that verse:
"There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed." Isaiah 65:20

Or in Brenton's Old Testament:
"Neither shall there be there any more a child that dies untimely, or an old man who shall not complete his time: for the youth shall be a hundred years old, and the sinner who dies at a hundred years shall also be accursed"

But is it in the Millenium? Let's just a few verses back:
"For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying."

So, it IS talking about the time after the Millenium - eternity. At least that's how I understand it.

We see also a distinction between those two phases - Millenium and eternity.

"Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all." 1 Corinthians 15:24-28

I will confess I do not have the answer on that matter. Looks like God does not want us to know yet, yet it's interesting, since every scripture is important, isn't it? What is the end? The Greek word translated as "end" is "telos", which can also mean "a toll" or "a limit". It can refer to either the second coming, armaggedon, but it can also refer to the end of the Millenial Reign, which is described in Revelation 20:7-9.

Also, notice it states He will reign TILL all enemies are defeated, then He will deliver the kingdom up to the Father. Of course, it won't be until then that death will be cast into the Lake of Fire (Revelation 20:14). However, death, it seems, still seems to be there as a form of discipline. Notice that it is described as the last enemy that will be destroyed. Yes, death. Not Satan. Not the ungodly. Shouldn't that give us thinking? Like I said, I still lack of the answers.

Maybe we should read the Apocrypha. I am aware many oppose it. But it was widespread by the early church.

That are my thoughts so far. What are yours? Do you have a better explaination?

I think the defeat of death is a reference to the 1st major victory over death to be experienced by the resurrected Church at the 2nd Coming of Christ. Yes, I agree that during the ensuing Millennial Age there will be a world population not yet resurrected--still mortal and infested with sin. The age of human sin will be finally finished at the last rebellion of Satan, after the Millennium.

Can people still die after the Millenium?

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