Can Pastors Live Too Extravagantly?

[jiminpa]

I know pastors who have rooms in their church where they stay. God provides. If you are truly faithful, God will always stand over you. At my church, our pastor broke his back (seems that all the older men at our church are the ones that do the hard work because at least one of them always have something broken). The church personally began signing envelopes out to pay for his surgery. The churches personal money is for the upkeeping of the church, not the faculty. However I have no problem with personal payments. At my church he still gets paid (only half our faculty gets paid, and they all get paid minimum wage and it's only when they're working their assigned jobs, on the church grounds. So for my Pastor, he gets paid Sunday and sometimes special occasions. But other times he's volunteering just as much as anyone else. Yet he gets by. His son in law, the youth pastor, works as a full time teacher AND pastor. His wife is the children's minister and she probably does the most work out of the three of them. Most of the behind the scenes workers who work every day of the week at the church almost do it free of charge, either as retirees or in between jobs.

So you can't tell me that if a pastor is not paid he can't support himself. Nonsense.

What a bunch of greedy, self-centered leeches you are. How do you have the arrogance to even post such a shameful attitude in a public forum. To make others slave for you and then begrudge them even small luxuries. If your pastor had any courage at all he would stand up the very next service, call you all out on it in the five seconds you pay him for with your crumbs of a salary, and walk straight out the door, never to return. Let's see if there is anyone else out there willing to serve you ingrates for nothing.

 

[JSGuitarist]

What about these scriptures:

1 Tim. 5:17-18 -- "Let the elders who rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in the word and doctrine. For the Scripture says, 'You shall not muzzle an ox while it treads out the grain,' and 'The laborer is worthy of his wages.'"

1 Cor. 9 -- 3This is my defense to those who sit in judgment on me. 4Don't we have the right to food and drink? 5Don't we have the right to take a believing wife along with us, as do the other apostles and the Lord's brothers and Cephas[a]? 6Or is it only I and Barnabas who must work for a living?

7Who serves as a soldier at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard and does not eat of its grapes? Who tends a flock and does not drink of the milk? 8Do I say this merely from a human point of view? Doesn't the Law say the same thing? 9For it is written in the Law of Moses: "Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain."[b] Is it about oxen that God is concerned? 10Surely he says this for us, doesn't he? Yes, this was written for us, because when the plowman plows and the thresher threshes, they ought to do so in the hope of sharing in the harvest. 11If we have sown spiritual seed among you, is it too much if we reap a material harvest from you? 12If others have this right of support from you, shouldn't we have it all the more? But we did not use this right. On the contrary, we put up with anything rather than hinder the gospel of Christ. 13Don't you know that those who work in the temple get their food from the temple, and those who serve at the altar share in what is offered on the altar? 14In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel.

It's pretty clear from Scripture that ministers should make their living from what the church pays. I think the amount given should reflect the amount of responsibility, time away from his family, preaching/teaching skills, etc;

Go Cards!

This is where I stand too.

As far as the extravagent riches, here's what I think. I don't mind if a pastor has it good, but when a pastor is making countless millions, why is he keeping it all for himself? Why are they not investing it back into the Kingdom of God? Of course, maybe some of them do and just don't make a big splash about it, but millions of dollars can go an awful long way in ministry, especially in countries where a few dollars can feed a family for a week. There was a time when Israel was very wealthy, and I remember my bible commentary mentioning that many Israelites even had second homes! But instead of using the wealth God gave them to honor Him, they treated it like they did it themselves.

I don't believe it's wrong to be wealthy, but I do believe in going beyond the tithes, because we only have so much time before God's going to proclaim judgment, and there's a very large window of people in Asia who have never heard the name of Jesus Christ. The souls of others are the only things we're taking to heaven with us.

 

[Hagnismos]

Paul argues in Corinthians that those who minister the gospel have the right to live off of the gospel. That said it is again an issue of balance. The simple fact is I cannot come to speak at anyone's church unless I have money for a bus and hotel and food, at least. But then we all have bills to pay and taxes (most ministers have to pay taxes as if they were independent contractors which is actually more taxes than your typical worker.) I have always felt that because of the temptations associated with great wealth I would cap my income from ministry at the median family income for a family the size of my own. Currently my wife and I work in the private sector and in our area our income is somewhere around the 80th percentile for our family size. I like it but by no means are awash in money, lots of bills to pay etc. However, if I were blessed to accumulate from ministry more money than needed to maintain roughly a middle class life for my family, I would find ways to use it to build the church. Perhaps helping plant churches or something, fund missionaries etc. At the same time the most important thing is the calling of God, so if the Lord called us to mission work in Africa, or to be a pastor of a small poor church somewhere in His wisdom I would ask for the grace to obey. I want to say I would just jump but we all want good things in this life, and in America it is hard to feel good about accepting a meager life when we have been told we should expect more. Still, I think I would follow the Lord wherever he leads.

I have heard the argument made that in order to reach wealthy people a minister must demonstrate wealth. I'm not sure I buy it. Paul said that not many among you are rich, that is because to be rich at a certain level you actually have to spend alot of time focusing on your money, your power, your reputation. I would rather be found holy than rich, rather be found righteous (approved of by God) than powerful. I have noticed in almost every really big ministry that over time the doctrine always swings toward money more and more. So whatever else we may have to say about it there definitely seems to be a temptation, to those who find such wealth, to slowly distort the appropraite measures within the gospel message. I'm sure we have all seen those TV mininstries that never preach the gospel at all, the message is always about some way to succeed in this life. Jesus by all accounts was a complete failure in this life. He was a good carpenter and probably could have become a major contractor in the Empire if he had wanted to, get some lucrative contracts and retire comfortably. Despite this he chose to oppose the powers that could have given him security to the point that they conspired to put him to death. He chose a wealth that was beyond human understanding. The fruit of the spirit is the earnest of that wealth, and as Paul said 'godliness with contentment is great gain.' And of course Jesus said, 'Lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven where neither rust nor moth destroy.' Again begging for balance let us not forget the admonishon that elders who serve well should be counted worthy of double honor. Perhaps once in a while that double honor should include the church treating them to a magnificent anniversary get away at a classy hotel?

Most large churches are not lacking for funds, the collective incomes for most 1000+ churches range into the ten's of millions of dollars per year. So we ought not to withhold good things from those who are working for our salvation. And they who minister should also be humbled by the anointing which graces them to do so and not forsake the gold which perishes not (faith) for the gold which worldly men falsely feel can keep them safe against any challenge.

 

[Tenebrae]

I definately have no issue with a pastor being paid for the work they do. I mean God called me into working in mental health, He sees that I am paid for the job I do.


Being a pastor is just as much of a calling.

 

[FaithLikeARock]

What a bunch of greedy, self-centered leeches you are. How do you have the arrogance to even post such a shameful attitude in a public forum. To make others slave for you and then begrudge them even small luxuries. If your pastor had any courage at all he would stand up the very next service, call you all out on it in the five seconds you pay him for with your crumbs of a salary, and walk straight out the door, never to return. Let's see if there is anyone else out there willing to serve you ingrates for nothing.

Oh right. Greedy. Why is it that when it comes to money, it's always the other person that's greedy? Christ called us to give up EVERYTHING we have and follow Him. Those who have the least will have more and those who have more will have the least. But oh, we NEED money. I have faith in God until it comes to the point where I need to give up money. Then I NEED it. Obviously God will not keep His promise to provide for me. I need to do that on my own. How ridiculous. What sort of EXAMPLE are pastors setting when they live in upper middle class houses and then come in saying we must give up everything. What are people going to think of that?

 

[ghs1994]

1) Can pastors make too much money?
2) If not, do they have a duty to live a modest lifestyle in spite of their wealth?

I have nothing against wealth. I believe you can be wealthy and also be living in the word of God. But what about church leaders who make their money from the word of God, should they be setting a higher example?

I'm focusing on the televangelists in the mega churches. I realize the vast majority of pastors don't make that kind of money. Some such as Benny Hinn and Joyce Meyer have been criticized for living opulent lifestyles. Million dollar homes, private jets, Rolls Royce cars, and so on.

A pastor should provide for his family (1 Tim 3:4, 5:8). How far that goes really depends on what and Who a pastor trusts. Being a good steward of their money is a must. If someone else suffers in their abundance and they have the means to help and don't, they have sinned (James 2:15-16). Their example must be above everyone else's because of the position they have been called to (Titus 1:7).

 

[Hagnismos]

A pastor should provide for his family (1 Tim 3:4, 5:8). How far that goes really depends on what and Who a pastor trusts. Being a good steward of their money is a must. If someone else suffers in their abundance and they have the means to help and don't, they have sinned (James 2:15-16). Their example must be above everyone else's because of the position they have been called to (Titus 1:7).

Nicely done. Amen.

 

[JSGuitarist]

Oh right. Greedy. Why is it that when it comes to money, it's always the other person that's greedy? Christ called us to give up EVERYTHING we have and follow Him. Those who have the least will have more and those who have more will have the least. But oh, we NEED money. I have faith in God until it comes to the point where I need to give up money. Then I NEED it. Obviously God will not keep His promise to provide for me. I need to do that on my own. How ridiculous. What sort of EXAMPLE are pastors setting when they live in upper middle class houses and then come in saying we must give up everything. What are people going to think of that?

But Paul does mention having a right to be paid for the work he does. He argued too that an apostle should even be able to take a believing wife along with them, so he asked for a little more than just the bare necessities. When Christ told his disciples not to take anything with them, He was talking specifically to them. For the work they did, they would not need to take anything of their own with them. To say that they shouldn't be paid is to say that they should receive absolutely nothing for the work they do, even food and shelter. Technically that would be paying. Our youth pastor lives in a nice home, though at the same time he dedicates himself fully to the church ministry; he goes to bed at 2 or 3, gets up at 6 (this guy's got energy like you wouldn't believe!), and spend literally all day at church and ministering to others. In all fairness, I think it'd be very wrong to force him to live in substandardly, considering all he does.

 

[FaithLikeARock]

Paul's word over Christ's huh? Gee, I wonder who wins.

 

[martymonster]

But Paul does mention having a right to be paid for the work he does. He argued too that an apostle should even be able to take a believing wife along with them, so he asked for a little more than just the bare necessities. When Christ told his disciples not to take anything with them, He was talking specifically to them. For the work they did, they would not need to take anything of their own with them. To say that they shouldn't be paid is to say that they should receive absolutely nothing for the work they do, even food and shelter. Technically that would be paying. Our youth pastor lives in a nice home, though at the same time he dedicates himself fully to the church ministry; he goes to bed at 2 or 3, gets up at 6 (this guy's got energy like you wouldn't believe!), and spend literally all day at church and ministering to others. In all fairness, I think it'd be very wrong to force him to live in substandardly, considering all he does.

Actually Paul never said that He deserved to be paid for preaching the Gospel, that's why He made tents for a living to support Himself.

He was having a go at those who He was looking after spiritually, because they were not doing that which was right.
When someone comes and does something like that for you the very least you can do is give them some food and shelter. He never asked for money. He said He wouldn't take anything from them even if they did give it after that, because they should have done it out of decency and mercy!

As for giving money for the upkeep of a building, Christ never came to set up buildings. It is His followers who are the Church.

Jesus said, if any would come after me, let Him take up His cross and follow Me!

Stop looking for loop holes and ways to get out of what Christ plainly said!

 

[Hagnismos]

Paul's word over Christ's huh? Gee, I wonder who wins.

The Bible does not contradict itself. It would imply that God is a liar. Some part of how you are intepreting the Bible is wrong if you can make it say do different opposing things. In fact if you would like to take it further I would say that my current understanding of the Bible is as complete as any pastor I have know and I am certain I see no contradictions in the Bible. The same Holy Spirit led both Jesus and Paul in their ministries. You might try looking up the verse that says 'It is impossible for God to lie.'

 

[JSGuitarist]

Hagnismos beat me to the punch, but He's right, and there is a reconciliation between that Paul said and Jesus said because both are inspired scripture.

1 Corinthians 9
7Who serves as a soldier at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard and does not eat of its grapes? Who tends a flock and does not drink of the milk? 8Do I say this merely from a human point of view? Doesn't the Law say the same thing? 9For it is written in the Law of Moses: "Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain."[b] Is it about oxen that God is concerned? 10Surely he says this for us, doesn't he? Yes, this was written for us, because when the plowman plows and the thresher threshes, they ought to do so in the hope of sharing in the harvest. 11If we have sown spiritual seed among you, is it too much if we reap a material harvest from you? 12If others have this right of support from you, shouldn't we have it all the more? But we did not use this right. On the contrary, we put up with anything rather than hinder the gospel of Christ. 13Don't you know that those who work in the temple get their food from the temple, and those who serve at the altar share in what is offered on the altar? 14In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel.

Paul claimed that they should be supporting those who are out preaching the Gospel, though Paul himself just decided not to claim his right. He did claim it was a right though. As he said, "What soldier goes to war at his own expense?" How could you tell a soldier that he must go off to war and fight, yet tell him he must pay for his own gun, his own armor, his own rounds, his own food, his own water, his own hygeine products, his own medical service, etc.? Do you know what stress that would cause the soldier? Paul knew; he's been shipwrecked, starved, imprisoned, and left in the cold countless times, and him and his fellow journeymen have gotten very depressed because of their terrible conditions. Temple workers ate from the meat sacrificed at the altars, and shared everything that was offered at the altars; that was their pay. Paul says that workers of the gospel can and should reap a material harvest for what they do.

 

[GregoryTurner]

Oh right. Greedy. Why is it that when it comes to money, it's always the other person that's greedy? Christ called us to give up EVERYTHING we have and follow Him. Those who have the least will have more and those who have more will have the least. But oh, we NEED money. I have faith in God until it comes to the point where I need to give up money. Then I NEED it. Obviously God will not keep His promise to provide for me. I need to do that on my own. How ridiculous. What sort of EXAMPLE are pastors setting when they live in upper middle class houses and then come in saying we must give up everything. What are people going to think of that?

The next time you sit down at a pizza place enjoying your meal with your family, think about those who preach the gospel that are away from their families, behind the counter cooking that meal that you are enjoying with yours because people carry this exact attitude.

I have 7 horses and live on 18 acres of land, does that make me "extravagent"? It takes money for me to feed not only my family, but the horses that I own for the ministry that we are beginning. Praise the Lord for allowing me to begin a ministry doing something I love

rev g

 

[GregoryTurner]

Also to note that there are pastors (youth, senior, associate) who also tithe from the money they receive from the work they do at/with the church.

 

[FaithLikeARock]

The next time you sit down at a pizza place enjoying your meal with your family, think about those who preach the gospel that are away from their families, behind the counter cooking that meal that you are enjoying with yours because people carry this exact attitude.

I have 7 horses and live on 18 acres of land, does that make me "extravagent"? It takes money for me to feed not only my family, but the horses that I own for the ministry that we are beginning. Praise the Lord for allowing me to begin a ministry doing something I love

rev g

Money on ministry is fine.

Money on a big screen TV that you make from that ministry? Not so much.

 

[Celticflower]

It is not so much about how much money you have, but how you got it and what you do with it. The average local preacher isn't going to have much of a problem with having large sums of money -- most are scraping it together like the rest of us. It is the big name, TV and book guys that you need to be wary of. Those who demand x-amount from their viewers to "support the ministry" and then use the money to buy multi-million dollar mansions, Italian suits, multiple high end cars -- none of which benefits the ministry at large. Only the the minister and his family. Now if they housed umpteen formerly homeless families in their mansion, donated their suits to clothing programs and auctioned off the cars to support summer camps for innercity kids etc, then there would be less reason to complain. But they don't. Some give back a small portion of what they collect, but it seems more and more of it goes to support their own high profile, high cost lifestyles.

 

[bling]

Is the problem with how he is spending the money or what he really wants to do with his money? Is something keeping him from doing what he really wants to do with his money? Tithing is the way the rich people justify keeping 90% and spending it on themselves. Tithing is not part of the Christian dispensation; we are more into using all we can in fulfillment of the objective. What % are we to be committed to the cause?

 

[Hagnismos]

Is the problem with how he is spending the money or what he really wants to do with his money? Is something keeping him from doing what he really wants to do with his money? Tithing is the way the rich people justify keeping 90% and spending it on themselves. Tithing is not part of the Christian dispensation; we are more into using all we can in fulfillment of the objective. What % are we to be committed to the cause?

More often than not the people struggle to come up with 10% and then feel horribly guilty about it (or not.) But I agree with you whole heartedly the NT does not bind us to a tithe. Still I think that agreeing to say 10% as a way of supporting your local church is not bad. Alot of pastors are becoming aware that the tithing doctrine is dogmatic. Still I think say in the AG we do not have it as bad as in some churches where you might actually have to pay pew rent just to attend. Then of course there are the Word of Faithers who love to say that ten pecent is the bare minimum and some advocate and actually receive 30% or more. My brother-in-law used to attend a church like that and the pastor after a few years of miracle promises that never came true skipped town with what we think was possibly a million dollars. Whether he is somewhere enjoying the wages of his con, or some local boys turned him into fertilizer I can't be sure. I hope it is the former even though I know he did harm the community greatly.

 

[Hagnismos]

Is the problem with how he is spending the money or what he really wants to do with his money? Is something keeping him from doing what he really wants to do with his money? Tithing is the way the rich people justify keeping 90% and spending it on themselves. Tithing is not part of the Christian dispensation; we are more into using all we can in fulfillment of the objective. What % are we to be committed to the cause?

More often than not the people struggle to come up with 10% and then feel horribly guilty about it (or not.) But I agree with you whole heartedly the NT does not bind us to a tithe. Still I think that agreeing to say 10% as a way of supporting your local church is not bad. Alot of pastors are becoming aware that the tithing doctrine is dogmatic. Still I think say in the AG we do not have it as bad as in some churches where you might actually have to pay pew rent just to attend. Then of course there are the Word of Faithers who love to say that ten pecent is the bare minimum and some advocate and actually receive 30% or more. My brother-in-law used to attend a church like that and the pastor after a few years of miracle promises that never came true skipped town with what we think was possibly a million dollars. Whether he is somewhere enjoying the wages of his con, or some local boys turned him into fertilizer I can't be sure. I hope it is the former even though I know he did harm the community greatly, but such things are definitely not unheard of.

 

[GregoryTurner]

Matthew 23:23

Woe to you, scribes and Phariseesm hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.
[24] Blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!