Can Orthodox Learn from Protestant Theologians?

[All Becomes New]

it isn’t, but when folks err they are corrected by the Church or cut off from the Church. the Church doesn’t err because Christ still guides the Church.

We all are the Church. We all have the Holy Spirit living in us. And this is clearly not the case as in the beginning of Church history, individuals in the Church varied wildly in what they said. What happened one way could have happened another way. That seems to be a fundamental difference we have. I believe that the Chruch is not perfect and I think it is absurd to think it is.

neither of those verses equate the Word with the written text.

The second one does. Jesus says, "It is written" talking about what comes from "the mouth of God." Unless you want to say it is based on something else, in which case, revelation is as good of an answer as tradition is.

 

[ArmyMatt]

We all are the Church. We all have the Holy Spirit living in us. And this is clearly not the case as in the beginning of Church history, individuals in the Church varied wildly in what they said. What happened one way could have happened another way. That seems to be a fundamental difference we have. I believe that the Chruch is not perfect and I think it is absurd to think it is.

no, we are not all the Church. individuals may have articulated the faith differently, but if they believed differently they came together to find out who was correct and who was not, or if they actually believed the same thing all along.

The second one does. Jesus says, "It is written" talking about what comes from "the mouth of God." Unless you want to say it is based on something else, in which case, revelation is as good of an answer as tradition is.

yes, showing there is weight behind the written text, but the Word of God Who comes from the mouth of God is Christ.

 

[All Becomes New]

no, we are not all the Church. individuals may have articulated the faith differently, but if they believed differently they came together to find out who was correct and who was not, or if they actually believed the same thing all along.

Every Christian who has the Holy Spirit living in them is part of the Chruch. This is a point we are simply not going to agree on.

yes, showing there is weight behind the written text, but the Word of God Who comes from the mouth of God is Christ.

It is not limited to that. I encourage you to look up how often the word "mouth" (פֶּה) is used in prophecy. These are not all Christ saying these things. They are from people who had a certain revelation given to them which enabled them to speak the Words of God.

Isaiah 1:18-20
"“Come, let’s settle this,”
says the LORD.
“Though your sins are scarlet,
they will be as white as snow;
though they are crimson red,
they will be like wool. If you are willing and obedient,
you will eat the good things of the land. But if you refuse and rebel,
you will be devoured by the sword.”
For the mouth of the LORD has spoken."
(Emphasis mine)

 

[ArmyMatt]

Every Christian who has the Holy Spirit living in them is part of the Chruch. This is a point we are simply not going to agree on.

no, I do agree on that point. I just disagree agree on who has the Holy Spirit living in them.

It is not limited to that. I encourage you to look up how often the word "mouth" (פֶּה) is used in prophecy. These are not all Christ saying these things. They are from people who had a certain revelation given to them which enabled them to speak the Words of God.

and the origin of the prophecy, is the Word Himself. in the OT, the Word comes to the prophets.

 

[All Becomes New]

no, I do agree on that point. I just disagree agree on who has the Holy Spirit living in them.

Are you saying anyone who is not EO does not have the Holy Spirit?

and the origin of the prophecy, is the Word Himself. in the OT, the Word comes to the prophets.

Word can mean a lot of things so I am going to need a reference (in the OT).

 

[ArmyMatt]

Are you saying anyone who is not EO does not have the Holy Spirit?

dwelling within? no. working from without? sure. I can’t say either way since that’s God’s business.

Word can mean a lot of things so I am going to need a reference (in the OT).

Genesis 15:1. the Word comes and speaks. there’s actually a ton if you do a Bible gateway search.

 

[All Becomes New]

dwelling within? no. working from without? sure. I can’t say either way since that’s God’s business.

So you don't think I have the Holy Spirit living in me?

Genesis 15:1. the Word comes and speaks. there’s actually a ton if you do a Bible gateway search.

It's pretty clear that what Abraham is experiencing is a revelation from God (in a vision).

 

[ArmyMatt]

So you don't think I have the Holy Spirit living in me?

no.

It's pretty clear that what Abraham is experiencing is a revelation from God (in a vision).

correct, and the Word of God is God.

 

[All Becomes New]

no.

No wonder you don't care what I say.

 

[ArmyMatt]

No wonder you don't care what I say.

no, I would say the same thing about CS Lewis, GK Chesterton, the Protestant pastor from the other day, John Lennox, Robert Barron, etc and I care a lot about what they say.

when someone says I think these verses mean x because I think these other verses support x, I need a little something more (like when you went into the Greek and now I can look at the Fathers to get you Orthodoxy’s POV).

 

[All Becomes New]

no, I would say the same thing about CS Lewis, GK Chesterton, the Protestant pastor from the other day, John Lennox, Robert Barron, etc and I care a lot about what they say.

when someone says I think these verses mean x because I think these other verses support x, I need a little something more (like when you went into the Greek and now I can look at the Fathers to get you Orthodoxy’s POV).

Just being honest, but I don't know Greek. I just know how to look stuff up. If you want the verses in Greek, I'd be happy to give them (all of them) so you can know what I am saying, but we are speaking English now so I am not sure why that would matter as much.

So the question for you as you read through the NT is to look at the words εἰμί (I), ἡμῶν (our), ἡμᾶς (us), ὑμεῖς (you) (and pronouns like it) to see if this indicates that Christ specifically chose some "before the foundation of the world" but that God's choosing does not apply to all Christians (which seems to be a complicated topic here since you only think Orthodox people are actually Christians).

 

[ArmyMatt]

Just being honest, but I don't know Greek. I just know how to look stuff up. If you want the verses in Greek, I'd be happy to give them (all of them) so you can know what I am saying, but we are speaking English now so I am not sure why that would matter as much.

it matters because languages when translated lose context and can gain false understandings. and the NT was originally in Greek. and I am no Greek expert either.

So the question for you as you read through the NT is to look at the words εἰμί (I), ἡμῶν (our), ἡμᾶς (us), ὑμεῖς (you) (and pronouns like it) to see if this indicates that Christ specifically chose some "before the foundation of the world" but that God's choosing does not apply to all Christians (which seems to be a complicated topic here since you only think Orthodox people are actually Christians).

but even in English, pronouns do come with nuance depending on how it’s being used in the text (like the “royal we” as one example).

and I don’t think only the Orthodox are Christian. only Orthodox are in the Church.

 

[All Becomes New]

and I don’t think only the Orthodox are Christian. only Orthodox are in the Church.

Semantics. You don't think non-Orthodox will be in the NHNE.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Semantics. You don't think non-Orthodox will be in the NHNE.

not at all. God is not limited on Who He can save. many will become Orthodox on the Last Day. someone might not be Orthodox in this life, but become Orthodox at death or even on the Last Day. this is one of the things St Mark of Ephesus teaches when refuting purgatory.

 

[Lukaris]

Who Will Be Saved? What About non-Orthodox Christians or Others? by Father Michael Shanbour | Wenorthodox

Below are excepts on this question from various Orthodox Christian sources on this question. I would only like to add that the information below should not be taken as minimizing or excusing the seriousness of doctrinal error and heresy on the human soul, on corporate Christian bodies, an

www.wenorthodox.com

 

[All Becomes New]

thanks for this. I don’t have my NPNF off hand, but I will get back to you with answers.

Were you going to get back to me on this at some point?

 

[ArmyMatt]

Were you going to get back to me on this at some point?

sure, the problem is my job in the Army keeps me away from my wife and kids. I didn’t have the time to look at what patristics says when I was home.

 

[All Becomes New]

sure, the problem is my job in the Army keeps me away from my wife and kids. I didn’t have the time to look at what patristics says when I was home.

Okay. Just wondering if you were still going to give me an answer.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Okay. Just wondering if you were still going to give me an answer.

yes, I will.