Can One Be Saved Without Belief?

[SentWest]

Hi there, I've been a poster on and off this forum for about 10 years. I discovered it back in college when I was a militant atheist and looking for a fight. Which I found indeed.

Over the years I have listened and learned and read and thought, and eventually my position changed dramatically. I am now a pro-life conservative, where before I was adamantly pro-choice, for example. I've read many versions of the Bible many times, and been to many different churches. I've become a supporter of Christians, and feel and argue that a return to Christian ethics and beliefs is most likely the way to turn our country around.

I've also become comfortable with the idea that others personal experiences with religion are not up for argument. I cannot tell someone who feels a closeness with God that they're deluded, for who's to say that their experience isn't valid? Only the person having that experience knows.

However, I still don't believe.

I've come to grips with the fact that I can't force myself to believe in something that I don't believe in. And no amount of soul-searching seems to lead me to a place of belief. I can no more believe in the Christian religion than I can the Muslim, or the Hindu.

I'm beginning to think this just may be the bitter irony that God of course would not give a person like me the direct experience that I need to foment belief, because then there would be no need for faith.

However, I seem to lack the spiritual or mental apparatus for accepting anything based on faith, which extends to other matters than religion as well.

So my question is: Is there hope of salvation for someone who attempts to have faith and belief, but possibly is never able to achieve either?

 

[bling]

I would say you do have faith in some things and some people which is enough to “trust” (have faith in a benevolent God). That amount of faith is all you need to be saved, but it must be directed by you toward God.

The best way for you to know Christ is to meet Him first hand eyeball to eyeball. He is alive and will living in and through true Christians, but there are a lot of people that call themselves Christians (that is the title given them) that get in the way of seeing true Christians.

Trying to find Christ in a book is tough, but possible. The Bible is really meant to support the Christian and not to convert the nonbeliever.

The best group of true Christians I have worked with where prisoners behind bars. They had their life on the line each day, were beaten daily, stuck together constantly, studied/prayed/shared/ Loved all the time and were truly Christ like (Christian is a descriptive term meaning Christ like and is not a title).

What I have read and heard about; the Christians in China and some Arab nations make me think they are true Christians.


Since you may not meet a Christ like person first hand we can talk about this academically, but that takes time, thought and study. I can’t just tell you something and expect you to accept it, you will have to think it out for yourself and draw your own conclusions.

We need to start were we agree, so let’s talk about a creator.

Do you feel a creator that has been around forever would have developed the greatest attributes a being could have and is thus the most Loving being that could ever exist?

Could a truly wonderful Love (Godly type Love), be measured in a being by the amount that being was willing to sacrifice (give up)?

Since we know; how a wonderful mother’s Love for her innocent infant can compel her to do all she does and if God’s Love is greater, can we assume God’s Love would compel Him to do all He does? (There are apparent exceptions, but we can assume for now they can be resolved.)

Would the ultimate Lover be totally selfless toward those he is Loving?

If this Love compels God would it also be the most powerful force in all universes?

If God is truly selfless then His Love would have compelled Him to make beings that could obtain this powerful force for the sake of those that would obtain this Love. So, how do humans obtain such Love?

If God instinctively provided humans with this Love would that not be like a robotic Love and not like the Love He has?

If God forced this Love on humans would that not be like a shoot gun wedding with God holding the shoot gun (could a Loving God do that)?

If God is not going to force this Love on anyone, would it than have to be accepted by the receiver as a free undeserving, unconditional gift? Would the gift truly have been accepted if the receiver was given a choice and understood the choice to be: take it or be tortured? So what is the choice Humans have?

What all might God do or allow to happen in order to help humans accept His gift of Love as Charity since that is what it is?

Do humans have a hard time accepting Charity as charity from a giver that has made a huge sacrifice to give the gift and why should this be a huge sacrifice for God?

Would God allow or make a huge personal sacrifice to help humans to accept Charity?

Could God allowing humans to even sin in order to help them be humble enough to accept Charity?


We can start with these.

 

[Bear.Fr00t]

You're right, you can't believe on your own. You need the power of God to transform your mind from one of unbelief to belief. Before you take what I say lightly, this is exactly what happened to me. For my entire adult life I was agnostic, only when I prayed for God to reveal himself and give me a heart of faith did I become a believer. I recommend praying earnestly even if you don't really believe in God. Tell God you don't believe he exists, but you want to believe. You may be surprised at what begins to happen in your life

 

[ddjones1230]

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[Lukaris]

I believe in heaven & hell of course but I also believe God knows His children in many ways we do not. the thing is though, you are so close to the Gospel consider faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Consider His 2 great commands, "You shall the love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, & mind' and "You shall love your neighbor as yourself" which I think you seem to have consciously towards your neighbor & subconsciously towards God. I realized that love is from God & I cannot truly fulfill it but must call on HIm (again I beleive God knows some people already likeas in the Beatitudes in Matthew 5:1-12) call on Jesus Christ (see Romans 10:9-13).

 

[razeontherock]

Over the years I have listened and learned and read and thought, and eventually my position changed dramatically. I am now a pro-life conservative, where before I was adamantly pro-choice, for example. I've read many versions of the Bible many times, and been to many different churches. I've become a supporter of Christians, and feel and argue that a return to Christian ethics and beliefs is most likely the way to turn our country around.

Sister, preaching like that makes ME believe Thank you for sharing!

I've come to grips with the fact that I can't force myself to believe in something that I don't believe in. And no amount of soul-searching seems to lead me to a place of belief. I can no more believe in the Christian religion than I can the Muslim, or the Hindu.

I seem to lack the spiritual or mental apparatus for accepting anything based on faith, which extends to other matters than religion as well.

So my question is: Is there hope of salvation for someone who attempts to have faith and belief, but possibly is never able to achieve either?

Note the part I bolded. I think this is called "humility," in Biblical terms. I am fond of pointing out that when we seek Him with our whole heart, we will find Him. Similar to your own observation here, it was when I discovered that I in fact did not have a whole heart to seek Him with, that "things started happening for me."

Rather than going on about my own experience, let me try to tailor the concept to what you seem to be saying:

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is]
the gift of God:" (Ephesians 2:8)

Your recognition of your own "lack of apparatus" is integral to your approach to G-d, IMHO:

2 Corinthians 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me."


I trust you recognize both these passages as expressing something that appears often, throughout Scripture? I heartily recommend continuing to read it, especially the Epistles, in a way that makes them personal, and a guide book for prayer. Pray to who? The Power it took to put our Universe here. It obviously exists, and hasn't gone anywhere. The G-d of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob. The G-d and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who raised Him from the dead, and declared Him to be the Son of G-d with Power!

Yes, I'm perfectly aware that at first this will feel like a "put on:"

Romans 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ"

How else do we wind up wearing robes of righteousness? The Good News is we do this one leg at a time, one step at a time, with nothing miraculous required of us. And the paradox is not merely how the first step happens, but every subsequent step. Established Christians tend to forget that!

Despite such familiar analogies, Christ in us is STILL a great mystery!

May the Lord make His face shine upon you in your search

 

[salida]

At first the bible was like reading chinese; then I prayed and asked God to help me understand it and He did!! The holy spirit helps you.

 

[salida]

1 John 4:8- God is Love

Are you a good person? www.livingwaters.com/good/

Research the credibility of the bible concerning overwhelming evidence which is very high compared to other religions even though it’s a spiritual decision first.
Visit: www.TheBibleProofBook.com, (you will need acrobat reader for this), read The Evidence That Demands A Verdict by Josh McDowell a former agnostic- (its overwhelming circumstantial evidence of bible) and Examine the Evidence by Muncaster a former athiest/The Case for Christ and The Real Jesus by Lee Strobel a former athiest. www.equip.org (articles), http://www.gotquestions.org/,
http://christiananswers.net/

http://www.reasonableanswers.org/12-Eyewitnesses-of-the-resurrection.html　
http://www.gotquestions.org/canon-Bible.html
http://equip.org/articles/a-defense-of-sola-scriptura
http://equip.org/articles/bible-reliability
The Nature of God
http://hermeneutics.kulikovskyonline.net/hermeneutics/god.pdf

 

[zaksmummy]

At first the bible was like reading chinese; then I prayed and asked God to help me understand it and He did!! The holy spirit helps you.

I was going to say -pray, ask God to show you, if at first you dont succeed try, try, and try again. Jesus said "seek first the kingdom of God" - keep praying, reading and looking, he wont be found until you seek him with all your heart, but it will be worth it.

 

[singpeace]

Dear SentWest,

That is an amazing statement, and thank you for your honesty. I also want to say how much I appreciate the fact that you have had an open mind as should we all.

Difficult as it is for some to have faith; I can't imagine not believing. To me, faith is the most logical thing in the world.

Forgive me if I mention something you have probably thought over for yourself, but logic says the Mona Lisa cannot exist by throwing paints in front of a fan, nor can 100-story buildings exist from dumping bricks and mortar onto a tarmac, and neither can a Rolls Royce be the product of throwing buckets of nuts and bolts into the air.

If logic explains these and a million other things, why can’t logic explain the existence of an Intelligent Divine Creator? Why must something so perfectly ordered and yet, delicate like the Universe require an explanation that defies logic?

I don't need to see the protons and neutrons interacting with the nucleus of an atom to know the flick of a light switch makes the light come on as long as the element is in tact. The faith I have in the light coming on is no different from the faith I have that there is a Father who proved his love by sending his Son to pay the penalty for my sins so that I would not have to pay.

Ask any person of any religion to fill in the blank, “In a perfect world, __________”, and Christianity will be what is described nearly 100 Percent of the time:

to love and not hate; to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, and heal the sick; to be peacemakers; to be encouraging, patient, kind, and understanding; to be honest in all public and private business; and to not judge others because no one is without fault; and finally, to forgive others every wrong because we have all failed. Most would say that is ideal.

But the world cannot accomplish the ideal.
Therefore, God gave us the most uncomplicated way to be His children; simply believe that He sent his Son Jesus who was perfect, to die for all sinners who cannot be perfect. Faith is the only requirement upon us. He couldn't have made it any easier for us. We don't have to work for it or earn it. Just choose to believe He is Who He says.


I pray and truly hope you make the choice to believe it because it makes sense.

 

[Danus]

So my question is: Is there hope of salvation for someone who attempts to have faith and belief, but possibly is never able to achieve either?

Faith is something grown. Jesus said. (Matthew 17:20 -New International Version)
20 He replied, “Because you have so little faith. Truly I tell you, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.”

Your salvation is right there. Pick it up and start walking. Start with the faith you have and get to know God. You will see your faith grow if you tend to it.

 

[drich0150]

So my question is: Is there hope of salvation for someone who attempts to have faith and belief, but possibly is never able to achieve either?

It depends on your heart, and your earnest efforts...

That said i read your post and it seem that you have tried all that you know to do. may i suggest to try what scripture tells us to do:


5 Then Jesus said to them, “Suppose you have a friend, and you go to him at midnight and say, ‘Friend, lend me three loaves of bread; 6 a friend of mine on a journey has come to me, and I have no food to offer him.’ 7 And suppose the one inside answers, ‘Don’t bother me. The door is already locked, and my children and I are in bed. I can’t get up and give you anything.’ 8 I tell you, even though he will not get up and give you the bread because of friendship, yet because of your shameless audacity[e] he will surely get up and give you as much as you need.
9 “So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 10 For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened. 11 “Which of you fathers, if your son asks for[f] a fish, will give him a snake instead? 12 Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? 13 If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”

We ask by asking in prayer

We seek by reading the bible and asking questions in places like this and in church.

We knock by repeating this process until we get what our hearts want.

 

[Aibrean]

The short answer is no.

We must believe in our heart. Our faith is a gift of God, that is true, but we have to apply that faith. Depending on a "feeling" or experience is not going to prove God.

"Feelings come and feelings go,
And feelings are deceiving;
My warrant is the Word of God--
Naught else is worth believing.

Though all my heart should feel condemned
For want of some sweet token,
There is One greater than my heart
Whose Word cannot be broken.

I'll trust in God's unchanging Word
Till soul and body sever,
For, though all things shall pass away,
HIS WORD SHALL STAND FOREVER!"

 

[E.C.]

So my question is: Is there hope of salvation for someone who attempts to have faith and belief, but possibly is never able to achieve either?

Perhaps.

God is the only judge of our souls and He alone knows how much mercy to show to each of us individually. If that means that He decides someone deserves enough grace to go to Paradise, than fine. I won't argue.

 

[BeeWrangler]

So my question is: Is there hope of salvation for someone who attempts to have faith and belief, but possibly is never able to achieve either?

Answer: No.

To have faith is to believe and trust without question. As the bible says, "Truly I tell you, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it.” You can tell a child the sky is green and they will trust you and believe the sky is green. We must have the same faith and trust in God. (not that God would lie or say the sky is green, but you get what I am saying) I don't understand why people find it so hard to do this?? If you could go back in time and tell people you could be anywhere in the world and they would still hear your voice they would laugh in your face because they have never had it happen to them. If you pulled out two cell phones and gave them one, they would then believe you. Just because something seems impossible or hard to understand does not mean it is