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Can morality exist without God cont..

Ed1wolf

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Ed1wolf said:
Yes, but the biblical evidence some of which is mentioned above points to the Christian God existing 13.8 bya. He knew what happened at the BB. Long before Hinduism.

de: The actual historical evidence leads us to believe that Yahweh was worshipped as a regional god in the polytheistic Canaanite pantheon starting somewhere roughly around 1,200BC - 1,000BC, give or take. Over time the Israelites became Monotheistic and the Yahweh that most people would recognize today came about around the time of the Babylonian Exile.

No, there is evidence that Yahweh was worshipped long before that, at least as far back as 2000 BC. There is textual evidence that the story of Abraham comes from that time period. The type of covenant God made with Abraham fits the Hittite Suzerainty Treaty. Someone living in 1200-1000 BC could not have known about that type of treaty. Also, sociological studies have shown that almost all ancient religions recognize one supreme God over all the other gods and if traced back in time there is evidence that that God is usually the oldest one that they recognize. This is evidence that originally humans were monotheistic and that other gods were added later.

de: The reality is, the god of Judaism isn't nearly as old as the Pyramids are. That can be demonstrated. It's also plenty of reason to believe that humans invented him, and not the other way around.

No, human created gods do not have the high moral standards of the Christian God. For example, if He had been manmade He would have allowed humans to have sex with whomever they wanted rather than restricting it to heterosexual married couples. And He would have allowed divorce laws to be much more relaxed. And He would allow you to hate your enemies and tell lies when they help you and etc. Such nearly unreachable moral standards would unlikely to have been created by humans.

ed: The universe is a diversity within a unity which reflects the characteristics of its cause just like any artistic creation, ie the Triune Christian God. The Hindu god is a pure unity, ie the One. Therefore it is unlikely to have been the cause of this universe.

de: I don't see how either one makes it less likely or more likely that the god in question created the universe.

Art experts know that artists incorporate certain characteristics of themselves into their artwork. That is how they are able to determine whether a piece of art was actually created by the artist or whether it is a fake. And this is also often true of non art creations.

ed: Exactly, that is my point, that is why the universe and life could only have been created by a conscious personal Being. Purpose exists in the universe, ie the purpose of eyes is for seeing and ears' purpose is to hear and etc.

de: You're asserting that because something happens to work that it was purposefully designed to do a task. There's simply no reason to believe that.

Fraid so, especially if it is so obvious that is what they were functionally designed to do in cases of eyes, ears, hands, etc.

ed: Let me turn around your example and put it another way... What's the purpose of cancer cells in children? They very effectively reproduce and spread, often killing the child.

Would you say god created childhood leukemia with the purpose of killing children in agony, or would you call it a product of nature that just does what it does? So what makes you think the other naturally occurring mechanisms in our body which allow us to see and hear are any different, apart from one is negative and the others are positive?

The obviousness of the finely tuned function of the eyes, ears, teeth, and etc plainly point to purpose. Cancers do not have that obviousness of a finely tuned function or irreducible complexity. Though they very well may have a purpose that is hidden from us at present. We do see a function among animals for such things, they help keep animal populations from overtaking their resources and after they die they help return nutrients back to the environment so that life can go on.

de: They are all things our body does. You have not demonstrated an outside source is required to bestow purpose on our various body parts in order for them to do things.

The intricately designed immune systems to fight infections and even cancers show a purpose also. Please provide an empirical example of a impersonal source for purpose, outside of biological systems of course, since that is what we are arguing.

de: The only purpose I'm aware of is the purpose we give ourselves. And frankly, that's the only purpose worth worrying about.
Yes, and you are personal being. This confirms my point that purposes only come from personal beings.
 
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Ed1wolf

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ed: It is the only way to guarantee that you reach your maximum potential. For example say some primitive human was transported to the future and found a car and decided cars are for sleeping in. But then the automaker finds him sleeping in the car and decides to tell him that cars can be driven 100 miles an hour and used to travel hundreds of miles so the primitive human can basically travel the world. Just imagine if he had never discovered the true purpose of a car his life would have been limited to just how far and fast he could travel on foot. So making your own purpose can be very limiting.

de: Except you haven't demonstrated that your example is analogous to the actual real world.

Following Gods moral laws regarding sexual behavior prevents people from contracting STDs and mental illnesses. And make for much happier marriages then other types of behaviors, this has been shown by multiple scientific studies. This means you can reach the maximum potential for your marriage and sex life.

de: What happens if god doesn't actually exist? You could find yourself focusing on the purpose of some beat up old car, while people who have liberated themselves from that mindset will be focusing on the wonders of aircraft and spaceflight instead.

That is possible but as I stated above scientific studies have shown that following Gods laws and teachings actually make peoples lives happier and more fulfilling.


ed: Yes, but according to Eisley and other historians of science they would have probably never have made those discoveries without believing in the Christian worldview. And modern science would probably never have come into existence if not for Christianity.

de: Nonsense. Those discoveries would have been made regardless. Even if you could make a plausible case that an atheist version of Isaac Newton wouldn't have created his laws of physics, somebody else would have figured it out.

An atheist or a pagan would not have had the motivation to try to discover those laws because if the universe was just the result of a random accident or a capricious irrational god, then it is unlikely that the universe would be orderly and intelligible so that it can be studied. And the God himself has commanded us to "consider the heavens..." "The heavens proclaim the glory of God.."

de: If anything, Christianity has a long history of doing everything it can to stifle and prevent the progression of modern science. Right back from the days of Galileo up to modern day stem cell research.

The Church has never killed anyone for their scientific findings. And Galileo was INSPIRED by his strong Christian beliefs to DO science. Read his private letters to his daughter in the book Galileo's Daughter. And in his case the church leadership actually placed Aristotle's teachings that the earth was the center of the universe above Gods word which does not teach that the earth is the center. So Galileo was correct and the church leadership was wrong.


ed: No, most scientists agree that the laws of physics ARE an aspect of the universe. We just describe what those laws do.

de: Repeating the same wrong thing over and over again doesn't make it right. Pick up a science book sometime.
I have and most scientists agree with me, including Einstein and philosophers of science like Keith Ward and Karl Popper.
 
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Ed1wolf

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Ed1wolf said:
Yes, it does, because only intelligent personal beings can make things intelligible and orderly. Laws require a lawgiver, even Einstein said that. A naturally occurring universe is an impossibility as I demonstrated above.

de: Does god operate by certain laws? I would imagine you'd agree that god can't violate the laws of logic (for example he can't do things that are logically impossible), likewise I would imagine you'd agree it's impossible for god to be evil.

If so, who created those laws? It couldn't possibly be god because if the laws are self imposed then he could change those laws at will. There's nothing stopping him from saying he can now do things that are logically impossible, and committing unspeakable evil.

Therefore if the laws are self imposed, it's not impossible for him to do logically impossible things, or evil. He just decides to refrain from doing them. However, if those things are actually impossible for god to do, then that law must come from a higher source that god is subordinate to. What's that source?

They are part of who He is. He cannot go against who He is.

de: Or, perhaps we go with a more reasonable and infinitely more justifiable solution that nature works the way that nature works. It's demonstrable that things can achieve natural order and symmetry without any intelligent interference, no god is required for that.

Either way, you haven't demonstrated that a naturally occurring universe is an impossibility. You've made the claim and backed it with some very dubious or outright fallacious arguments to back your case.
No, you have not refuted my argument that a quantum fluctuation could not have caused the BB.

 
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Ed1wolf

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There is literally no way to rationally make that connection without demonstrating that such a being even exists. You yourself have even stated that it's impossible to prove. Therefore you can't possibly call connecting everything to a being that can't even be demonstrated to exist rational at all. It's ludicrous.
No, He can be demonstrated to exist, just not with absolute certainty. But nothing can be, only your own existence and that only to yourself.


ed: No, because you don't know if there is a correlation between what you are looking at and what is actually there. But Christians know there is a correlation as demonstrated above.

de: I have every good reason at my disposal to believe that I'm experiencing reality. Regardless, even if I am just a brain in a vat or living in the matrix, it doesn't matter. The world I experience right now is the only one I have access to, and will likely ever have access to. Therefore given the absence of evidence for the idea that this world isn't real, I am best served by living my life as if this is actual reality. I have no reason to believe otherwise.

Exactly, that is my point, you have to make an irrational leap of faith. But the Christian can have rationally based confidence that there IS a correlation and an actual objective reality.

de: As for Christians, you're in the same boat I am. If we are actually in the matrix you would also not know it. Your god, Jesus and everything to do with your religion is also a part of the matrix. You have no idea what would exist in the "real world" in that hypothetical scenario.
No, because once we found out thru experience and our relationship that He can be trusted completely, then we have the rationally based confidence that there is an objective reality and real science can be conducted.

de: Simply believing that your god exists doesn't free you from that scenario if the world we experience isn't actually real. Your god would just be another aspect of a "false reality".
No, it is more than simply believing that He exists, see above.


ed: No, you need to logically demonstrate that that keyboard objectively exists, you cannot do that if God did not create this universe because there would be no subject-object correlation.

de: A universe created by Clyde the invisible universe creating dragon also contains objectively real keyboards. Without Clyde there's no subject-object correlation.

See, I can do it too. It doesn't make the argument any more valid by plugging in the name of any other hypothetical creator being.

No, see above.

de: Are you really trying to claim that without the existence of your particular god that my keyboard isn't really a keyboard? I have to give you points for coming up with a unique argument, but it's one of the worst I've ever had presented to me. It simply makes no sense at all
No, not necessarily, but you have no rational basis for believing that it really is a keyboard. Maybe it is too deep for you.
 
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anonymous person

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I also happen to think this passage supplements the one you quoted out of context. The passage comes from 2 Timothy 2:

So flee youthful passions and pursue righteousness, faith, love, and peace, along with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart. Have nothing to do with foolish, ignorant controversies; you know that they breed quarrels. And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.

You see Dave, there are more passages which speak to how one is to relate to the one who who brings a charge against them.

I am not going to answer your questions because I desire to take into account the whole counsel of God's word, not just the verses you quote out of context.

What's going on here are foolish and ignorant arguments and as such I see no reason to entertain them.

I would spend days on end talking with you about these matters if I discerned you were sincere but I know that you are not.

What you need is something I cannot give. You need a revelation from God of His holiness and this He gives to whom He wills.

Look into the great revivals that have happened throughout history. Something present in all of them was God's Spirit come in power which caused men and women like yourself to fall flat to the ground as dead men under the crushing weight of God's glory which caused them to see their sins for what they really are.

You're fixated on spending your time questioning the messengers and the recipients of God's revelation of His holiness. We cannot convey to you God's holiness in words or arguments or symbols. We cannot make you see your own miserable wretchedness which your pride blinds you from seeing.

This can only happen if God sees fit to reveal Himself to you. So if there is anything I would offer to you in the way of a response it is that we can share with you why we have the hope we do and point to the One who has revealed Himself to us and pray that, if God sees fit, He reveal Himself to you. If and when this happens, I assure you, you won't be on this forum asking these questions you are asking.

You will know the truth.
 
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Dave Ellis

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No, there is evidence that Yahweh was worshipped long before that, at least as far back as 2000 BC. There is textual evidence that the story of Abraham comes from that time period. The type of covenant God made with Abraham fits the Hittite Suzerainty Treaty. Someone living in 1200-1000 BC could not have known about that type of treaty. Also, sociological studies have shown that almost all ancient religions recognize one supreme God over all the other gods and if traced back in time there is evidence that that God is usually the oldest one that they recognize. This is evidence that originally humans were monotheistic and that other gods were added later.

No, there really isn't evidence of that. Regardless, Yahweh started off as a junior god in the Canaanite Pantheon under the supreme god El.

Even if you could back up the claim that people worshipped him as early as 2,000BC (which no historian I'm aware of believes to be the case), you still have to explain the fact that Yahweh was not even close to the god you think he is today. He was not originally regarded as a creator god, nor was he considered the supreme (or only) god.

No, human created gods do not have the high moral standards of the Christian God. For example, if He had been manmade He would have allowed humans to have sex with whomever they wanted rather than restricting it to heterosexual married couples. And He would have allowed divorce laws to be much more relaxed. And He would allow you to hate your enemies and tell lies when they help you and etc. Such nearly unreachable moral standards would unlikely to have been created by humans.

I don't see why you consider those high moral standards. The only reason you can make a case for why that's superior moral behavior is because Yahweh says so. It's rooted within your religion.

If someone has sex with another consenting adult, who is harmed? Likewise, what's immoral about divorce? There are a number of marriages I've been aware of which should end in divorce, namely ones where one spouse is being physically abused by the other. Why is it moral to stay in a marriage when you're getting the crap beaten out of you on a daily basis by your spouse?

Or, in a less dramatic fashion, say two people are married for 15 years without children, they drift apart and find they no longer love each other. What's the moral imperative to stay together? It benefits neither and harms both to stay in a loveless relationship.

Your god doesn't have high moral standards. He has commandments, some of which are moral, some of which are not.

Art experts know that artists incorporate certain characteristics of themselves into their artwork. That is how they are able to determine whether a piece of art was actually created by the artist or whether it is a fake. And this is also often true of non art creations.

And a master forger makes themselves aware of those characteristics and incorporates them into the forged work. What's your point?

Fraid so, especially if it is so obvious that is what they were functionally designed to do in cases of eyes, ears, hands, etc.

Labelling it as "obvious" doesn't make it so. Your logic is fallacious, just because something looks designed doesn't mean it is. It's an argument from ignorance. You haven't demonstrated actual design.

The obviousness of the finely tuned function of the eyes, ears, teeth, and etc plainly point to purpose.

Yeah, "finely tuned", which is why we need glasses, hearing aids and dentures. Good job for your "master designer", he was clearly having a bad day at work when he finely tuned those organs. It took us humans to make up for the mistakes inherent in the "design".

If they were the finely tuned product of a perfect creator, then they should work perfectly. Instead we see the results one would expect if they were naturally occurring (or the results one would expect from an office temp with a bad attitude). They are imperfect, and especially in regards to the eyes and teeth, deeply flawed designs.

Cancers do not have that obviousness of a finely tuned function or irreducible complexity. Though they very well may have a purpose that is hidden from us at present.

So, you give credit to god for things that are beneficial, and you attempt to brush cancer under the rug. Typical.

You're avoiding the point though, if god created us as finely tuned beings, then he must have created cancer as well. Cancer cells work very effectively at what they do, although they are harmful to us. Since they function, and function well it's clear they must have also been designed, and therefore have a purpose.

Please, explain the purpose behind childhood leukemia.

We do see a function among animals for such things, they help keep animal populations from overtaking their resources and after they die they help return nutrients back to the environment so that life can go on.

Yes, but if this was a designed world (or universe) then it could have been created in a way where resources and nutrients aren't really needed. There's no imperative reason why we have to eat, or why we need nutrients. That's just how our bodies function. If you had the ability to create life from nothing, it would make far more sense to have us operate via a much stronger version of photosynthesis, or even better have some kind of internal power generator.

It makes no sense both from an engineering and a moral standpoint to create creatures constantly hunting and killing each other. That's the virtual equivalent of a celestial dog fighting ring.

The intricately designed immune systems to fight infections and even cancers show a purpose also.

Not really, especially when you consider that your god would also be responsible for creating cancer and infectious diseases. What kind of sadist would create a bunch of things that can kill us in horrible and painful ways, then provide us with a self defense system which is capable of fighting some of those things off, and even then, not always.

Is that moral behaviour to you? It makes sense if these things are naturally occurring, but it is positively horrendous if things were made this way on purpose.

Please provide an empirical example of a impersonal source for purpose, outside of biological systems of course, since that is what we are arguing.

Why do you keep asking me that? I've already stated it makes no sense for an impersonal thing to provide purpose.

I have also already stated that you're fallaciously equivocating functionality with intentional purpose. Just because something works a certain way does not mean it was purposefully designed by a conscious being. Nature can and does create working things all the time, however it would be incorrect to ascribe purpose to those things.

Yes, and you are personal being. This confirms my point that purposes only come from personal beings.

Again, I agree purpose only comes from conscious beings. Your problem (as I said above) is you're ascribing purpose to everything, when you have no justification to do so.
 
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anonymous person

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No, there really isn't evidence of that. Regardless, Yahweh started off as a junior god in the Canaanite Pantheon under the supreme god El.

Even if you could back up the claim that people worshipped him as early as 2,000BC (which no historian I'm aware of believes to be the case), you still have to explain the fact that Yahweh was not even close to the god you think he is today. He was not originally regarded as a creator god, nor was he considered the supreme (or only) god.



I don't see why you consider those high moral standards. The only reason you can make a case for why that's superior moral behavior is because Yahweh says so. It's rooted within your religion.

If someone has sex with another consenting adult, who is harmed? Likewise, what's immoral about divorce? There are a number of marriages I've been aware of which should end in divorce, namely ones where one spouse is being physically abused by the other. Why is it moral to stay in a marriage when you're getting the crap beaten out of you on a daily basis by your spouse?

Or, in a less dramatic fashion, say two people are married for 15 years without children, they drift apart and find they no longer love each other. What's the moral imperative to stay together? It benefits neither and harms both to stay in a loveless relationship.

Your god doesn't have high moral standards. He has commandments, some of which are moral, some of which are not.



And a master forger makes themselves aware of those characteristics and incorporates them into the forged work. What's your point?



Labelling it as "obvious" doesn't make it so. Your logic is fallacious, just because something looks designed doesn't mean it is. It's an argument from ignorance. You haven't demonstrated actual design.



Yeah, "finely tuned", which is why we need glasses, hearing aids and dentures. Good job for your "master designer", he was clearly having a bad day at work when he finely tuned those organs. It took us humans to make up for the mistakes inherent in the "design".

If they were the finely tuned product of a perfect creator, then they should work perfectly. Instead we see the results one would expect if they were naturally occurring (or the results one would expect from an office temp with a bad attitude). They are imperfect, and especially in regards to the eyes and teeth, deeply flawed designs.



So, you give credit to god for things that are beneficial, and you attempt to brush cancer under the rug. Typical.

You're avoiding the point though, if god created us as finely tuned beings, then he must have created cancer as well. Cancer cells work very effectively at what they do, although they are harmful to us. Since they function, and function well it's clear they must have also been designed, and therefore have a purpose.

Please, explain the purpose behind childhood leukemia.



Yes, but if this was a designed world (or universe) then it could have been created in a way where resources and nutrients aren't really needed. There's no imperative reason why we have to eat, or why we need nutrients. That's just how our bodies function. If you had the ability to create life from nothing, it would make far more sense to have us operate via a much stronger version of photosynthesis, or even better have some kind of internal power generator.

It makes no sense both from an engineering and a moral standpoint to create creatures constantly hunting and killing each other. That's the virtual equivalent of a celestial dog fighting ring.



Not really, especially when you consider that your god would also be responsible for creating cancer and infectious diseases. What kind of sadist would create a bunch of things that can kill us in horrible and painful ways, then provide us with a self defense system which is capable of fighting some of those things off, and even then, not always.

Is that moral behaviour to you? It makes sense if these things are naturally occurring, but it is positively horrendous if things were made this way on purpose.



Why do you keep asking me that? I've already stated it makes no sense for an impersonal thing to provide purpose.

I have also already stated that you're fallaciously equivocating functionality with intentional purpose. Just because something works a certain way does not mean it was purposefully designed by a conscious being. Nature can and does create working things all the time, however it would be incorrect to ascribe purpose to those things.



Again, I agree purpose only comes from conscious beings. Your problem (as I said above) is you're ascribing purpose to everything, when you have no justification to do so.

As I suspected. It is always the same thing. Always devolves down to sex. Always sex.

"I don't like what God has to say about sex."

If people came out and just said all of this at the beginning instead of being pretentious, much time would be saved.

Your problem Dave, is that the God we worship is not a god made in your image. He is not something you can dictate to or make a bargain or deal with. He does not compromise. He is Holy and you are not. He does not allow crooked deals or sharp shadings. He doesn't care what you think about sex. He stands in stark contrast to your carnal, lustful passions and condemns the one who lives for such base ends.

If the God we worshipped was one who consented with your evil inclinations and desires, I doubt you would be so troubled by all of this.

But He is Holy, and you are not, so you are uncomfortable about it all.

But know this. God changes not. He is Holy and any sexual intercourse outside of the bonds of a heterosexual marriage blessed by Him is sin and is worthy of eternal damnation, regardless of what you or any other unregenerate sinner thinks. You feeling some kind of way about it will never change that.

You meet God on His terms. You will die and go to hell before He ever meets you on your terms my friend.
 
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Dave Ellis

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Following Gods moral laws regarding sexual behavior prevents people from contracting STDs and mental illnesses.

No it doesn't. You can acquire many STD's through other sources (i.e. HIV from tainted blood given through a transfusion) and then pass it on to your spouse while staying 100% true to god's commandments regarding sex.

Staying monogamous will lower the risk, but it will not prevent risk entirely.

And make for much happier marriages then other types of behaviors, this has been shown by multiple scientific studies. This means you can reach the maximum potential for your marriage and sex life.

That's not really true. Given the studies I've seen regarding happiness in marriage vs religion almost every study I'm aware of shows fundamentalist Christians near the bottom of the list. That demographic also tends to have one of the highest divorce rates as well.

That is possible but as I stated above scientific studies have shown that following Gods laws and teachings actually make peoples lives happier and more fulfilling.

Scientific studies consistently show the bible belt states as having the highest amount of STD infections, highest teen pregnancy rates, highest divorce numbers, among other things.

You're repeating an often told christian myth, but it's just that, a myth. The numbers don't lie, the areas of the United States with the worst sociological numbers are almost always the most religious states.

An atheist or a pagan would not have had the motivation to try to discover those laws because if the universe was just the result of a random accident or a capricious irrational god, then it is unlikely that the universe would be orderly and intelligible so that it can be studied. And the God himself has commanded us to "consider the heavens..." "The heavens proclaim the glory of God.."

I don't see how not believing in a deity would stifle one's curiosity. In fact, I think the universe is far more interesting because it is naturally occurring. Shutting down a line of inquiry with "we don't know why or how, therefore god did it" is sufficient for many Christians. That's not good enough for an atheist, we keep looking for the real answers.

The Church has never killed anyone for their scientific findings. And Galileo was INSPIRED by his strong Christian beliefs to DO science. Read his private letters to his daughter in the book Galileo's Daughter. And in his case the church leadership actually placed Aristotle's teachings that the earth was the center of the universe above Gods word which does not teach that the earth is the center. So Galileo was correct and the church leadership was wrong.

Galileo was brought before the Inquisition and forced to renounce his beliefs that the earth went around the sun because it was heretical. Is this your example of an institution which promotes scientific thought?

Giordano Bruno on the other hand was an astronomer burned at the stake by the inquisition, his findings built on those of Copernicus. He's credited with the ideas that the universe is infinite, and that stars are actually very distant suns, they likely contain other planets, and those planets may even have life on them.

He was accused on the basis of both his scientific findings, and some supposed personal theological beliefs. However, at the trial he maintained he believed catholic dogma and was willing to recant on those charges. He was not willing to recant on his "plurality of worlds" ideas, and was then branded a heretic by the catholic church and burned.

I have and most scientists agree with me, including Einstein and philosophers of science like Keith Ward and Karl Popper.

Can you quote Einstein agreeing with your post?
 
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Dave Ellis

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They are part of who He is. He cannot go against who He is.

So he doesn't operate by laws?

No, you have not refuted my argument that a quantum fluctuation could not have caused the BB.

People like Stephen Hawking, Lawrence Krauss and Neil DeGrasse Tyson seem to think it was. I value their scientifically literate opinions over your scientifically illiterate one.
 
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Dave Ellis

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No, He can be demonstrated to exist, just not with absolute certainty. But nothing can be, only your own existence and that only to yourself.

No, he can't be. Not even to the point of justified belief (which is what really matters).

Exactly, that is my point, you have to make an irrational leap of faith. But the Christian can have rationally based confidence that there IS a correlation and an actual objective reality.

How exactly do I have to make an irrational leap of faith?

No, because once we found out thru experience and our relationship that He can be trusted completely, then we have the rationally based confidence that there is an objective reality and real science can be conducted.

Nonsense. If we are living in the Matrix, then Jesus was just part of the program. Your god is just part of the program. Just because he seems real to you doesn't matter, you're in the matrix. There's no reason whatsoever to think that those beings are real outside of the matrix, they are merely characters within it.

No, it is more than simply believing that He exists, see above.

No, see above.

No, not necessarily, but you have no rational basis for believing that it really is a keyboard. Maybe it is too deep for you.

It's not a matter of being deep, it's a matter of being irrelevant.

If we really do inhabit a matrix, or if we are really just brains in a vat, then both you and I have absolutely no idea what exists in the real world. For some reason you think you're immune to that, you're not.
 
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Dave Ellis

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I also happen to think this passage supplements the one you quoted out of context. The passage comes from 2 Timothy 2:

So flee youthful passions and pursue righteousness, faith, love, and peace, along with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart. Have nothing to do with foolish, ignorant controversies; you know that they breed quarrels. And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.

I don't see how that proves your point, nor does it discredit the verse I brought up earlier (in proper context btw).

If the lord's servant (you) must be kind, willing to teach, patiently endure "evil" (presumably me, I guess) and correct your opponents with gentleness, then why do you refuse to answer questions? That's not being willing to teach, correcting your opponents, enduring "evil", or being kind.

You're refusing to engage. That's a refusal to teach and correct opponents, that's a refusal to endure "evil".

You see Dave, there are more passages which speak to how one is to relate to the one who who brings a charge against them.

I am not going to answer your questions because I desire to take into account the whole counsel of God's word, not just the verses you quote out of context.

Ah, the old "out of context" argument.

By all means then, please provide the proper context for the relevant things that I have supposedly taken out of context.

What's going on here are foolish and ignorant arguments and as such I see no reason to entertain them.

I would spend days on end talking with you about these matters if I discerned you were sincere but I know that you are not.

How do you know that?

I am more than willing to accept belief in anything you can demonstrate to be true. In fact, I would have an intellectual obligation to accept whatever can be demonstrated to be true.

Christians in my experience can not demonstrate their beliefs to have any significant justification at all. It's not a lack of sincerity on my part, if someone comes along that can prove what they say, I will sincerely accept it.

The problem is, they can't. Virtually every apologist relies on fallacious reasoning, flawed, forged or otherwise very dubious evidence. Perhaps you can offer up something that actually stands up to scrutiny?

What you need is something I cannot give. You need a revelation from God of His holiness and this He gives to whom He wills.

Then why does god refuse to give me this revelation?

Look into the great revivals that have happened throughout history. Something present in all of them was God's Spirit come in power which caused men and women like yourself to fall flat to the ground as dead men under the crushing weight of God's glory which caused them to see their sins for what they really are.

Or, people just thought god's spirit was present. Just because some people were convinced of those religious beliefs doesn't mean they are true.

You're fixated on spending your time questioning the messengers and the recipients of God's revelation of His holiness. We cannot convey to you God's holiness in words or arguments or symbols. We cannot make you see your own miserable wretchedness which your pride blinds you from seeing.

Holier than thou much? This is spoken like a truly humble and peaceful messenger of god.

I am proud, and that's not a bad thing. Just because I don't share the views of your guilt and self hatred club, that all humans are miserable wretches doesn't mean I'm a bad person. In fact, I think people who view humanity as a collection of miserable wretches are deserving of pity.

This can only happen if God sees fit to reveal Himself to you. So if there is anything I would offer to you in the way of a response it is that we can share with you why we have the hope we do and point to the One who has revealed Himself to us and pray that, if God sees fit, He reveal Himself to you. If and when this happens, I assure you, you won't be on this forum asking these questions you are asking.

You will know the truth.

Truth is demonstrable, if you claim to possess the truth, then demonstrate it. Or, at least relay on how it was demonstrated to you.

If your beliefs are justified by that demonstration, I will accept them. However, again in my experience this demonstration always comes down to some personal feeling, or less common a recovery from some personal problem or medical issue.

Perhaps you have something more concrete?
 
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anonymous person

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I don't see how that proves your point, nor does it discredit the verse I brought up earlier (in proper context btw).

If the lord's servant (you) must be kind, willing to teach, patiently endure "evil" (presumably me, I guess) and correct your opponents with gentleness, then why do you refuse to answer questions? That's not being willing to teach, correcting your opponents, enduring "evil", or being kind.

You're refusing to engage. That's a refusal to teach and correct opponents, that's a refusal to endure "evil".



Ah, the old "out of context" argument.

By all means then, please provide the proper context for the relevant things that I have supposedly taken out of context.



How do you know that?

I am more than willing to accept belief in anything you can demonstrate to be true. In fact, I would have an intellectual obligation to accept whatever can be demonstrated to be true.

Christians in my experience can not demonstrate their beliefs to have any significant justification at all. It's not a lack of sincerity on my part, if someone comes along that can prove what they say, I will sincerely accept it.

The problem is, they can't. Virtually every apologist relies on fallacious reasoning, flawed, forged or otherwise very dubious evidence. Perhaps you can offer up something that actually stands up to scrutiny?



Then why does god refuse to give me this revelation?



Or, people just thought god's spirit was present. Just because some people were convinced of those religious beliefs doesn't mean they are true.



Holier than thou much? This is spoken like a truly humble and peaceful messenger of god.

I am proud, and that's not a bad thing. Just because I don't share the views of your guilt and self hatred club, that all humans are miserable wretches doesn't mean I'm a bad person. In fact, I think people who view humanity as a collection of miserable wretches are deserving of pity.



Truth is demonstrable, if you claim to possess the truth, then demonstrate it. Or, at least relay on how it was demonstrated to you.

If your beliefs are justified by that demonstration, I will accept them. However, again in my experience this demonstration always comes down to some personal feeling, or less common a recovery from some personal problem or medical issue.

Perhaps you have something more concrete?

You think being proud is not a bad thing. That is because you do not see your pride as an affront to a Holy God. You are as Lucifer was who was cast out of heaven. His pride blinded him and made him look at himself instead of the God who made him beautiful and glorious. Your pride is odious in the sight of God. It is foul and God resists that.

If He does choose to reveal Himself to you, it would only be because of His graciousness and His mercifulness. Just as it was in my case and any other person to whom He has chosen to reveal Himself.

In so doing, He removes every vestige of credit from us for coming to Him.

You think way too highly of yourself and I will not facilitate in the puffing up of your ego and the incurring of multiplied guilt by providing you with truth which you will only reject.

So I can go ahead and tell you now, neither myself, nor anyone here will be able to give you what you are asking for. God has seen fit for it to be this way.

Of course you can keep asking the same questions and pretending to be interested, but we see through your duplicitous pretense, even if you yourself are blind to it.
 
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Dave Ellis

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As I suspected. It is always the same thing. Always devolves down to sex. Always sex.

"I don't like what God has to say about sex."

If people came out and just said all of this at the beginning instead of being pretentious, much time would be saved.

Seriously?

I've been debating on this thread for 23 pages now, and never once brought up sex. I only talked about the issue because it was raised by Ed1Wolf. He put forward some demonstrably incorrect arguments, so I shot them down. Do you expect me to leave them unaddressed?

Personally, the issue of sex is almost irrelevant to my beliefs on religion. Just because some christian sexual teachings are bizarre and unnatural has absolutely no bearing on the existence of a god.

To be honest, I think the most sex obsessed people in society are the Christians. They're always trying to tell you what you should and should not do, and in many cases trying to legislate their views onto others. My view on sexuality is I don't care what you do in your bedroom, as long as it's consensual and with an adult. Beyond that, it's none of my business.

Your problem Dave, is that the God we worship is not a god made in your image. He is not something you can dictate to or make a bargain or deal with. He does not compromise. He is Holy and you are not. He does not allow crooked deals or sharp shadings. He doesn't care what you think about sex. He stands in stark contrast to your carnal, lustful passions and condemns the one who lives for such base ends.

If the God we worshipped was one who consented with your evil inclinations and desires, I doubt you would be so troubled by all of this.

Do you not see the utter ridiculousness of your post? I was debating STD rates and divorce rates in bible belt states and you're turning this into my "carnal, lustful, base passions". Do you not see the utterly insane over-sensitivity Christians like yourself have towards sex?

How on earth do you know what my sexual lusts and passions are anyway? What leads you to believe I'm some kind of sexual freak? Given the way you're lashing out from nowhere, that leads me to believe perhaps this is some repressed self projection speaking?

Do you have any reason to believe that I do not prefer long term committed heterosexual relationships? Give me one reason.

Is this what is meant in the bible verse you quoted above where is says "And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness."

Is calling me some depraved sexual freak without reason kind, gentle or avoiding quarrel? You're preaching bible verses at me in one post, then violating those same verses in your very next post. Christian hypocrisy at its finest.

So go ahead, give me that reason. If you can't, I demand you withdraw your judgmental, bigoted and hypocritical statement.

But He is Holy, and you are not, so you are uncomfortable about it all.

But know this. God changes not. He is Holy and any sexual intercourse outside of the bonds of a heterosexual marriage blessed by Him is sin and is worthy of eternal damnation, regardless of what you or any other unregenerate sinner thinks. You feeling some kind of way about it will never change that.

Just out of curiosity, was God married to the Virgin Mary, or was Joseph? Always struggled with how that one worked.

You meet God on His terms. You will die and go to hell before He ever meets you on your terms my friend.

Any being who would create a place like hell is neither moral, nor deserving of respect much less worship.
 
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Dave Ellis

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You think being proud is not a bad thing. That is because you do not see your pride as an affront to a Holy God. You are as Lucifer was who was cast out of heaven. His pride blinded him and made him look at himself instead of the God who made him beautiful and glorious. Your pride is odious in the sight of God. It is foul and God resists that.

Your lack of pride and willingness to think for yourself keeps you blind to the whims of a religion that is lying to you.

Destroying a sense of self confidence and personal pride is one of the first things any successful cult leader does to their followers. It keeps them subservient. The same effect is exploited by religions.

If He does choose to reveal Himself to you, it would only be because of His graciousness and His mercifulness. Just as it was in my case and any other person to whom He has chosen to reveal Himself.

In so doing, He removes every vestige of credit from us for coming to Him.

And if he chooses not to reveal himself to me, what then? I go to hell? How is that moral to send me to hell because he didn't reveal himself to me? I had no control over that whatsoever.

You think way too highly of yourself and I will not facilitate in the puffing up of your ego and the incurring of multiplied guilt by providing you with truth which you will only reject.

I agree there is a problem with having an over-inflated ego. Cockiness vs confidence. I am a confident person, however I am not a cocky one.

Quite frankly, based on our limited exchange I'd say you have expressed a clear attitude of looking down on people that don't agree with your viewpoints. That's not humble, nor is it meek. It's literally "holier than thou" thinking, which is flat out arrogance.

So I can go ahead and tell you now, neither myself, nor anyone here will be able to give you what you are asking for. God has seen fit for it to be this way.

Of course you can keep asking the same questions and pretending to be interested, but we see through your duplicitous pretense, even if you yourself are blind to it.

Again, you're displaying smarmy arrogance. How do you know what my thoughts and motivations are? You are claiming to know my thoughts and opinions better than I do. I can't think of a more arrogant position than that.

Again, I'm seeing hypocrisy at work, you're explaining to someone you look down upon why pride and arrogance is a bad thing. It's mind blowing to me you don't see your own attitude at work here.
 
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anonymous person

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Any being who would create a place like hell is neither moral, nor deserving of respect much less worship.

Out of your own mouth it has come. Because you believe this, you stand condemned. Therefore do not marvel when I say that you and those like you are proud, self-righteous, debased and wicked. You presume to judge a Holy God, you who are a sinner and come to a Christian forum to demand evidence, which if it were given to you (God being even merciful in not allowing you to receive it) would only serve to increase your guilt and condemnation.

You stand condemned by your own words and your words have vindicated my claims about your pretense and pride.
 
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Dave Ellis

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Out of your own mouth it has come. Because you believe this, you stand condemned.

So your god believes in punishing thought crimes? Do you desire to live in the world of Winston Smith?

Therefore do not marvel when I say that you and those like you are proud, self-righteous, debased and wicked.

Me:

Proud: Yes
Self Righteous: No
Debased: No
Wicked: No

You:

Proud: Very likely, but denies it
Self Righteous: Yes
Debased: Unknown
Wicked: Perhaps too strong of a word, but you're certainly not a nice person based on your accusations and language on here.

You presume to judge a Holy God, you who are a sinner and come to a Christian forum to demand evidence, which if it were given to you (God being even merciful in not allowing you to receive it) would only serve to increase your guilt and condemnation.

You stand condemned by your own words and your words have vindicated my claims about your pretense and pride.

This might have even been insulting, if it could be proven that there was a shred of truth to it. Instead you sound like a petulant child on the school yard threatening all the kids that their big brother is going to come beat them up if they question what you say, despite the fact nobody has ever seen this big brother and you can't seem to provide any evidence he exists. It's actually fairly comical.

I judge people on their actions. If your god is real, I also judge him on his own actions. I don't believe he is real, but if he was, I don't believe he's the loving being most Christians describe him as.
 
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Eudaimonist

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No, but I am holding a copy of the magazine in my hands as I sit at my computer.

Oh, I believe that the article exists. I will take your word for that. But I need to read the article to form my own judgment of what it is actually saying.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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Ed1wolf

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Ed1wolf said:
No, there is evidence that Yahweh was worshipped long before that, at least as far back as 2000 BC. There is textual evidence that the story of Abraham comes from that time period. The type of covenant God made with Abraham fits the Hittite Suzerainty Treaty. Someone living in 1200-1000 BC could not have known about that type of treaty. Also, sociological studies have shown that almost all ancient religions recognize one supreme God over all the other gods and if traced back in time there is evidence that that God is usually the oldest one that they recognize. This is evidence that originally humans were monotheistic and that other gods were added later.

de: No, there really isn't evidence of that.
Fraid so.


de: Regardless, Yahweh started off as a junior god in the Canaanite Pantheon under the supreme god El.

Evidence?

de: Even if you could back up the claim that people worshipped him as early as 2,000BC (which no historian I'm aware of believes to be the case), you still have to explain the fact that Yahweh was not even close to the god you think he is today. He was not originally regarded as a creator god, nor was he considered the supreme (or only) god.

Abraham considered him the supreme God and as I demonstrated above there is evidence that the texts regarding him go back to 2000 years ago. And yes there are historians that believe that to be the case. Besides Kenneth A. Kitchen and Cyrus Gordon, two of the most renowned middle eastern scholars, there are many other lesser known ones, such as Samuel R. Kulling.


ed: No, human created gods do not have the high moral standards of the Christian God. For example, if He had been manmade He would have allowed humans to have sex with whomever they wanted rather than restricting it to heterosexual married couples. And He would have allowed divorce laws to be much more relaxed. And He would allow you to hate your enemies and tell lies when they help you and etc. Such nearly unreachable moral standards would unlikely to have been created by humans.

de: I don't see why you consider those high moral standards. The only reason you can make a case for why that's superior moral behavior is because Yahweh says so. It's rooted within your religion.

If someone has sex with another consenting adult, who is harmed? Likewise, what's immoral about divorce? There are a number of marriages I've been aware of which should end in divorce, namely ones where one spouse is being physically abused by the other. Why is it moral to stay in a marriage when you're getting the crap beaten out of you on a daily basis by your spouse?

Exactly, you just proved my point. As a side note, God allows divorce for physical abuse, it is equivalent abandonment. But most of your rationalizing are similar to the types of rule relaxing and rationalizing that a manmade god would have.

de: Or, in a less dramatic fashion, say two people are married for 15 years without children, they drift apart and find they no longer love each other. What's the moral imperative to stay together? It benefits neither and harms both to stay in a loveless relationship.

Your god doesn't have high moral standards. He has commandments, some of which are moral, some of which are not.
Exactly you reflect typical fallen human responses about God's laws, that is why it is unlikely that the Christian God is man made.


ed: Art experts know that artists incorporate certain characteristics of themselves into their artwork. That is how they are able to determine whether a piece of art was actually created by the artist or whether it is a fake. And this is also often true of non art creations.

de: And a master forger makes themselves aware of those characteristics and incorporates them into the forged work. What's your point?
Who could forge a universe except God? While it doesn't prove the Christian God created the universe my point is that it IS evidence that He created it. It is one of the ways that the origin of something that has been created can be determined.


ed: Fraid so, especially if it is so obvious that is what they were functionally designed to do in cases of eyes, ears, hands, etc.

de: Labelling it as "obvious" doesn't make it so. Your logic is fallacious, just because something looks designed doesn't mean it is. It's an argument from ignorance. You haven't demonstrated actual design.
No, it is not an argument from ignorance, it is an argument from knowledge. Throughout all of human experience purposes have only come from an intelligent mind. Provide a non-biological example of such a thing, and you may convince me.


ed:The obviousness of the finely tuned function of the eyes, ears, teeth, and etc plainly point to purpose.

de: Yeah, "finely tuned", which is why we need glasses, hearing aids and dentures. Good job for your "master designer", he was clearly having a bad day at work when he finely tuned those organs. It took us humans to make up for the mistakes inherent in the "design".

If they were the finely tuned product of a perfect creator, then they should work perfectly. Instead we see the results one would expect if they were naturally occurring (or the results one would expect from an office temp with a bad attitude). They are imperfect, and especially in regards to the eyes and teeth, deeply flawed designs.

First, Genesis does not the creation is perfect, only very good. But it is perfect for its purpose as shown in other parts of the bible. Also, many of the things you refer to are to the fall of man and the curse.


ed: Cancers do not have that obviousness of a finely tuned function or irreducible complexity. Though they very well may have a purpose that is hidden from us at present.

de: So, you give credit to god for things that are beneficial, and you attempt to brush cancer under the rug. Typical.

You're avoiding the point though, if god created us as finely tuned beings, then he must have created cancer as well. Cancer cells work very effectively at what they do, although they are harmful to us. Since they function, and function well it's clear they must have also been designed, and therefore have a purpose.

Please, explain the purpose behind childhood leukemia.

No, see above about the fall and non perfection. Leukemia is due to mans rebellion against God.


ed: We do see a function among animals for such things, they help keep animal populations from overtaking their resources and after they die they help return nutrients back to the environment so that life can go on.

de: Yes, but if this was a designed world (or universe) then it could have been created in a way where resources and nutrients aren't really needed. There's no imperative reason why we have to eat, or why we need nutrients. That's just how our bodies function. If you had the ability to create life from nothing, it would make far more sense to have us operate via a much stronger version of photosynthesis, or even better have some kind of internal power generator.

It makes no sense both from an engineering and a moral standpoint to create creatures constantly hunting and killing each other. That's the virtual equivalent of a celestial dog fighting ring.

In order to destroy evil forever, God decided that a universe that is primarily natural law and with free will beings must be in it. How else could nutrients be recycled in a natural law universe? Even photosynthetic plants need nutrients in the soil.


ed: The intricately designed immune systems to fight infections and even cancers show a purpose also.

de: Not really, especially when you consider that your god would also be responsible for creating cancer and infectious diseases. What kind of sadist would create a bunch of things that can kill us in horrible and painful ways, then provide us with a self defense system which is capable of fighting some of those things off, and even then, not always.

Is that moral behaviour to you? It makes sense if these things are naturally occurring, but it is positively horrendous if things were made this way on purpose.
He didn't directly create human cancers. They came into existence by natural processes damaged by the consequences of our rebellion against our King and creator. But He also brings great good out of evil things such as cancer. Often when people experience such hardships they turn to God and grow spiritually thereby helping to bring about the ultimate destruction of evil forever.


ed: Please provide an empirical example of a impersonal source for purpose, outside of biological systems of course, since that is what we are arguing.

de: Why do you keep asking me that? I've already stated it makes no sense for an impersonal thing to provide purpose.

Ok so you admit that atheistic evolution could not have produced biological structures that function with a purpose.

de: I have also already stated that you're fallaciously equivocating functionality with intentional purpose. Just because something works a certain way does not mean it was purposefully designed by a conscious being. Nature can and does create working things all the time, however it would be incorrect to ascribe purpose to those things.
You have yet to prove that nature alone can create things that have directed functions toward specific goals, ie purposes. Unless you can provide a non biological example.

ed: Yes, and you are personal being. This confirms my point that purposes only come from personal beings.

de: Again, I agree purpose only comes from conscious beings. Your problem (as I said above) is you're ascribing purpose to everything, when you have no justification to do so.

Not necessarily everything, as I stated above if you can provide a non-biological example of purpose coming into existence I am all ears.
 
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