• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Can morality exist without God cont..

Dave Ellis

Contributor
Dec 27, 2011
8,933
821
Toronto, Ontario
✟59,815.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
CA-Conservatives
You claimed that english common law originated from the Romans. I provide an article from Britannica.com that specifically says English common law originated as a result of the Norman Conquest and was adopted from Germanic Northern Europe in the mid 11th century. Last I checked, the Roman empire was long gone in the 11th century. But the Holy Roman Empire existed and it just so happens to consist Germanic European countries. You are wrong. Anyone who can read the Britannia article can see that. So show a little humility and swallow your pride and admit it.


Here's and idea. How about you back up your comments with some references. Show me your source that says English common law originated from the Romans. [emoji4]


I can disprove it by using this post alone.

As I have already stated, and which you apparently ignored.... The Normans were not Germanic. The Normans were French speaking descendants of Norwegian and Danish settlers, who had no ties whatsoever to the Holy Roman Empire. They were Scandinavian, not German.

I mean, you're just flat out wrong. No part of what you said is remotely correct. The article you cited was accurate, however it has nothing to do with the topic we are discussing here.
 
Upvote 0

Dave Ellis

Contributor
Dec 27, 2011
8,933
821
Toronto, Ontario
✟59,815.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
CA-Conservatives
Did you not claim that english common law originated from the Romans? How is providing information that proves yourself wrong a "red herring"?

You are aware the Roman Empire, and Holy Roman Empire were not the same thing, right?
 
Upvote 0

(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 14, 2015
6,133
3,090
✟405,773.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
You are aware the Roman Empire, and Holy Roman Empire were not the same thing, right?
Yes...do you? You claimed that english common law came from the Romans. I am claiming that you are wrong. It did not come from the Roman Empire. It originated in the mid 11th century from "Germanic Northern Europe". Gee...what was "Germanic Northern Europe" in the 11th century? Answer, the Holy Roman Empire !

What in the world made you think that English common law came from the Romans? Perhaps we should be asking you if you know the difference between the Roman Empire and the Holy Roman Empire.


Btw...even if you are correct that english common law did not originate from the Holy Roman Empire, but rather from another source, the point still remains that it did not originate from the Romans! Your post in #213 is wrong regardless....period. Do you still stand by your claim that the English Common Law originated from the Roman Empire? If so, put your money where your mouth is and show me the proof. Otherwise, stop making up false claims to justify your false arguments.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 14, 2015
6,133
3,090
✟405,773.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
No, because the site is clearly not an objective source, and it also does not line up with the actual scholarly evidence on the issue.
And websites like evilbible.com and skepticsannotatedbible.com are objective? You don't have to answer because it is a straw man. However the double standard is still noted.
 
Upvote 0

Dave Ellis

Contributor
Dec 27, 2011
8,933
821
Toronto, Ontario
✟59,815.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
CA-Conservatives
And websites like evilbible.com and skepticsannotatedbible.com are objective? You don't have to answer because it is a straw man. However the double standard is still noted.

There is no double standard here. Being critical of a viewpoint you agree with doesn't mean the source is not objective.

Skeptics Annotated Bible for example uses a word for word copy of the King James Bible. They are not using a new translation that is slanted against a particular viewpoint. They point out the various problems, may it be contradictions, ethical issues, or anything else, and cite chapter and verse in context.

So yes, it is an objective source. It uses the source material as it stands without any misrepresentation. It just points out the problem areas with it.

The site you linked flagrantly ignores the scholarly research on the topic and is written to push a disproven worldview on everyone despite the evidence to the contrary. That is not an objective source.
 
Upvote 0

(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 14, 2015
6,133
3,090
✟405,773.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
There is no double standard here. Being critical of a viewpoint you agree with doesn't mean the source is not objective.

Skeptics Annotated Bible for example uses a word for word copy of the King James Bible. They are not using a new translation that is slanted against a particular viewpoint. They point out the various problems, may it be contradictions, ethical issues, or anything else, and cite chapter and verse in context.

So yes, it is an objective source. It uses the source material as it stands without any misrepresentation. It just points out the problem areas with it.

The site you linked flagrantly ignores the scholarly research on the topic and is written to push a disproven worldview on everyone despite the evidence to the contrary. That is not an objective source.
How about you show me the objective source that says English common law originated from the Romans.
[emoji4]
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Eudaimonist

I believe in life before death!
Jan 1, 2003
27,482
2,738
58
American resident of Sweden
Visit site
✟126,756.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Libertarian
Upvote 0

Dave Ellis

Contributor
Dec 27, 2011
8,933
821
Toronto, Ontario
✟59,815.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
CA-Conservatives
How about you show me the objective source that says English common law originated from the Romans.
[emoji4]

For one, refer to Eudaimonist's link above.

Secondly, here is a short writeup on the Consitutio Criminalis Carolina. This was the work that attempted to unify the Holy Roman Empire's legal system in 1530, which until then was a mish-mash of different legal systems for each of the hundreds of states in the empire.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutio_Criminalis_Carolina

So in short, in the time period you are referring to there was nothing even resembling a unified Holy Roman Empire legal system to influence, much less serve as the basis for English law.

Ironically, when the Carolina was completed in 1530, it's basis was in the Halsgerichtsordnung of Bamberg, which itself in turn was based on the humanistic school of Roman Law. So, when the Holy Roman Empire actually established it's own unified legal system, Roman Law served as the basis for them too.
 
Upvote 0

(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 14, 2015
6,133
3,090
✟405,773.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
For one, refer to Eudaimonist's link above.

Secondly, here is a short writeup on the Consitutio Criminalis Carolina. This was the work that attempted to unify the Holy Roman Empire's legal system in 1530, which until then was a mish-mash of different legal systems for each of the hundreds of states in the empire.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutio_Criminalis_Carolina

So in short, in the time period you are referring to there was nothing even resembling a unified Holy Roman Empire legal system to influence, much less serve as the basis for English law.

Ironically, when the Carolina was completed in 1530, it's basis was in the Halsgerichtsordnung of Bamberg, which itself in turn was based on the humanistic school of Roman Law. So, when the Holy Roman Empire actually established it's own unified legal system, Roman Law served as the basis for them too.
So...what you're really trying to say is that your post in #213 is wrong. But rather than admitting it, you rather stick to disproving my claim that english common law? Ok, for the sake of discussion, lets say I am wrong about the Holy Roman Empire. Do you still stand by your post that english common law originated from the Romans?

Btw...what if I was to tell you that wikipedia is not a reliable source that I will accept as factual?[emoji4]
 
Upvote 0

Dave Ellis

Contributor
Dec 27, 2011
8,933
821
Toronto, Ontario
✟59,815.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
CA-Conservatives
So...what you're really trying to say is that your post in #213 is wrong. But rather than admitting it, you rather stick to disproving my claim that english common law? Ok, for the sake of discussion, lets say I am wrong about the Holy Roman Empire. Do you still stand by your post that english common law originated from the Romans?

The main point of that post was to dispute your claim that the ancient Israelites had some kind of effect, which frankly is ludicrous.

Likewise, virtually all of European law has some basis (either all, or in part) from the Romans. That kinda happens when the empire ruled over much of the continent for many centuries. Even the Germanic tribes, while never directly ruled by Rome were influenced by the Roman legal system while they were creating and codifying their own systems. How could they not be? When you live next door to the dominant world power, of course they are going to be an influence on your culture.
 
Upvote 0

(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 14, 2015
6,133
3,090
✟405,773.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
The main point of that post was to dispute your claim that the ancient Israelites had some kind of effect, which frankly is ludicrous.

OK, we will stick to the original point. Is the US legal system influenced by ancient israelites? Here is another article from Britannica.com.

Divine Natural Law
Proponents of divine natural law contend that law must be made to conform to the commands they believe were laid down or inspired by God, or some other deity, who governs according to principles of compassion, truth, and justice. These naturalists assert that the legitimacy of any enacted human law must be measured by its consonance with divine principles of right and wrong. Such principles can be found in various Scriptures, church doctrine, papal decrees, and the decisions of ecclesiastical courts and councils. Human laws that are inconsistent with divine principles of morality, naturalists maintain, are invalid and should neither be enforced nor obeyed. St. Thomas Aquinas, a theologian and philosopher from the thirteenth century, was a leading exponent of divine natural law.
According to Judeo-Christian belief and the Old Testament, the Ten Commandments, were delivered to Moses by God on Mount Sinai. These ten laws represent one example of divine natural law. The Bible and Torah are thought by many to be other sources of divine natural law because their authors are said to have been inspired by a divine spirit. Some Christians point to the Canon Law of the Catholic Church, which was applied by the ecclesiastical courts of Europe during the Middle Ages, as another source of divine natural law.
Before the Protestant Reformation of the sixteenth century, Europe was divided into two competing jurisdictions—secular and religious. The emperors, kings, and queens of Europe governed the secular jurisdiction, and the pope presided over the religious jurisdiction. The idea that monarchs ruled by "divine right" allowed the secular jurisdiction to acquire some of the authority of religious jurisdiction. Moreover, the notion that a "higher law" transcends the rules enacted by human institutions and that government is bound by this law, also known as the Rule of Law, fermented during the struggle between the secular and religious powers in Europe before the American Revolution. For example, Henry de Bracton, an English judge and scholar from the thirteenth century, wrote that a court's allegiance to the law and to God is above its allegiance to any ruler or lawmaker.


The influence of divine natural law pervaded the colonial period of U.S. law. In 1690 English philosopher John Locke wrote that all people are born with the inherent rights to life, liberty, and estate. These rights are not unlimited, Locke said, and may only be appropriated according to the fair share earned by the labor of each person. Gluttony and waste of individual liberty are not permitted, Locke argued, because "[n]othing is made by God for man to spoil or destroy."


In the Declaration of Independence, Thomas Jefferson, borrowing from Locke, wrote that "all men are created equal … and are endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights … [including] life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness." Jefferson identified the freedom of thought as one of the inalienable rights when he said, "Almighty God has created the mind free, and manifested his supreme will that free it shall remain by making it altogether insusceptible of restraint." In Powell v. Pennsylvania, 127 U.S. 678, 8 S. Ct. 1257, 32 L. Ed. 253 (1888), the Supreme Court recognized the importance of the divine influence in early U.S. law, stating that the "right to pursue happiness is placed by the Declaration of Independence among the inalienable rights of man, not by the grace of emperors or kings, or by the force of legislative or constitutional enactments, but by the Creator."
The U.S. Constitution altered the relationship between law and religion. Article VI establishes the Constitution as the supreme law of the land. The First Amendment prohibits the government from establishing a religion, which means that a law may not advance one religion at the expense of another or prefer a general belief in religion to irreligion, atheism, or agnosticism. Although the Supremacy and Establishment Clauses seemingly preclude the judiciary from grounding a decision on Scripture or religious doctrine, state and federal courts have occasionally referred to various sources of divine natural law.

For example, in Edwards v. Aguillard, 482 U.S. 578, 107 S. Ct. 2573, 96 L. Ed. 2d 510 (1987), the Supreme Court said that "the Founding Fathers believed devotedly that there was a God and that the inalienable rights of man were rooted in Him."

In McIlvaine v. Coxe's Lessee, 6 U.S. 280, 2 Cranch 280, 2 L. Ed. 279 (1805), the Supreme Court relied on the Bible as "ancient and venerable" proof that expatriation had long been "practiced, approved, and never restrained."
Confronted with the question as to whether the conveyance of a particular piece of land was legally enforceable, the Supreme Court stated that it would consider "those principles of abstract justice, which the Creator of all things has impressed on the mind of his creature man, and which are admitted to regulate, in a great degree, the rights of civilized nations" (Johnson v. M'Intosh, 21 U.S. 543, 8 Wheat. 543, 5 L. Ed. 681 [1823]).

In dred scott v. sandford, 60 U.S. 393, 19 How. 393, 15 L. Ed. 691 (1856), the Supreme Court held that slaves were the property of their owners and were not entitled to any constitutional protection. In a dissenting opinion, however, Justice John McLean wrote that a "slave is not mere chattel. He bears the impress of his Maker, and is amenable to the laws of God and man."


In the later twentieth century (in a judgment overturned in Lawrence v. Texas, 539 U.S., 123 S.Ct. 2472, 156 L.Ed.2d 508 [2003]), the Supreme Court relied on Judeo-Christian standards as evidence that homosexual Sodomy is a practice not worthy of constitutional protection because it has been condemned throughout the history of western civilization (Bowers v. Hard-wick, 478 U.S. 186, 106 S. Ct. 2841, 92 L. Ed. 2d 140 [1986] [Burger, J., concurring]). State and federal courts also have considered Judeo-Christian standards when evaluating the constitutionality of statutes prohibiting bigamy and Incest. For example, Benton v. State, 265 Ga. 648, 461 S.E.2d 202 (1995), upheld the constitutionality of a Georgia statute prohibiting incest.
Despite the sprinkling of cases that have referred to Scripture, religious doctrine, and Judeo-Christian heritage, such sources of divine natural law do not ordinarily form the express basis of judicial decisions. At the same time, it cannot be said that state and federal courts have completely eliminated any reliance on natural law principles. To the contrary, many controversial legal disputes are still decided in accordance with unwritten legal principles that are derived not from religion, but from secular political philosophy.

http://www.britannica.com/topic/natural-law


I rest my case. Do you still stand by your claim that ancient israelites had no influence on the US justice system?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Ed1wolf

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2002
2,928
178
South Carolina
✟132,765.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Single
Ed1wolf said:
You haven't proven that it is actually immoral yet.

de: Nor have you provided a reason as to why it should be considered moral

If it is allowed in certain specific cases by the Moral lawgiver of the universe then it plainly is moral.


ed: Yes, but most of their ideas were pretty good.

de: Irrelevant. And that can be more or less true depending on which founding father you are referring to.
I am referring to most of their ideas that were incorporated into the DOI and the Constitution.


ed: Having them work for a time as an indentured servant actually may help them accomplish that. And the US ought to adopt the biblical concept of restitution, some states have done so.

de: When investigating what legal/correctional systems should serve as the model for a modern first world nation, the United States is virtually never cited. There is a reason for that, it's because the success rate of rehabilitating offenders is among the worst in the developed world. As such, I don't care if some states have enacted bad policies that others haven't, the point is it doesn't work.

Restitution, ie paying back money to the victims stolen by thieves by working, HAS worked.


ed: The first they refers to indentured servants. The second they refers to the Hebrew and Christian masters.

de: In that case, you're going to have to back up your claim. Where was that commanded, and how did you reach your financial conclusions?
Jeremiah 22:13 among other places.


ed: There is no religious baggage in the equation, just the truthful communication of the Creator and King of the universe of how to handle many problems the best way. You cannot justify your argument that it is actually immoral other than that it makes you feel bad

de: Any time you refer to what the creator and king of the universe wants, that's virtually guaranteed to include religious baggage.

I'm sorry to hear you believe slavery is a moral act in some circumstances.

Yes, that is all you have, an objectively irrational emotional response.
 
Upvote 0

Ed1wolf

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2002
2,928
178
South Carolina
✟132,765.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Single
No that's not correct. This is taken from wiki.
The Hebrew Bible contains two sets of rules governing slaves: one set for Hebrew slaves (Lev 25:39-43) and a second set for Canaanite slaves (Lev 25:45-46).[1][21] The main source of non-Hebrew slaves were prisoners of war.[18] Hebrew slaves, in contrast to non-Hebrew slaves, became slaves either because of extreme poverty (in which case they could sell themselves to an Israelite owner) or because of inability to pay a debt.[16] According to the Hebrew Bible, non-Hebrew slaves were drawn primarily from the neighboring Canaanite nations,[22] and religious justification was provided for the enslavement of these neighbors: the rules governing Canaanites was based on a curse aimed at Canaan, a son of Ham,[23] but in later eras the Canaanite slavery laws were stretched to apply to all non-Hebrew slaves.[24]

The laws governing non-Hebrew slaves were more harsh than those governing Hebrew slaves: non-Hebrew slaves could be owned permanently, and bequeathed to the owner's children,[25] whereas Hebrew slaves were treated as servants, and were released after seven years of service or the occurrence of a jubilee year.[26][27] One scholar suggests that the distinction was due to the fact that non-Hebrew slaves were subject to the curse of Canaan, whereas God did not want Jews to be slaves because he freed them from Egyptian enslavement.

Leviticus 25
44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.
I would hardly consider Wiki a good theological source. First they are ignoring blatant commands of God, such as Exodus 22:21-24 and Exodus 21:16. If they took slaves INVOLUNTARILY from the surrounding nations then both of these commands would be violated. And Leviticus 19:33-34. And the Year of Jubilee plainly included pagans living in Israel read Leviticus 25:9-10.
 
Upvote 0

Dave Ellis

Contributor
Dec 27, 2011
8,933
821
Toronto, Ontario
✟59,815.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
CA-Conservatives
OK, we will stick to the original point. Is the US legal system influenced by ancient israelites? Here is another article from Britannica.com.

Divine Natural Law
Proponents of divine natural law contend that law must be made to conform to the commands they believe were laid down or inspired by God, or some other deity, who governs according to principles of compassion, truth, and justice. These naturalists assert that the legitimacy of any enacted human law must be measured by its consonance with divine principles of right and wrong. Such principles can be found in various Scriptures, church doctrine, papal decrees, and the decisions of ecclesiastical courts and councils. Human laws that are inconsistent with divine principles of morality, naturalists maintain, are invalid and should neither be enforced nor obeyed. St. Thomas Aquinas, a theologian and philosopher from the thirteenth century, was a leading exponent of divine natural law.
According to Judeo-Christian belief and the Old Testament, the Ten Commandments, were delivered to Moses by God on Mount Sinai. These ten laws represent one example of divine natural law. The Bible and Torah are thought by many to be other sources of divine natural law because their authors are said to have been inspired by a divine spirit. Some Christians point to the Canon Law of the Catholic Church, which was applied by the ecclesiastical courts of Europe during the Middle Ages, as another source of divine natural law.
Before the Protestant Reformation of the sixteenth century, Europe was divided into two competing jurisdictions—secular and religious. The emperors, kings, and queens of Europe governed the secular jurisdiction, and the pope presided over the religious jurisdiction. The idea that monarchs ruled by "divine right" allowed the secular jurisdiction to acquire some of the authority of religious jurisdiction. Moreover, the notion that a "higher law" transcends the rules enacted by human institutions and that government is bound by this law, also known as the Rule of Law, fermented during the struggle between the secular and religious powers in Europe before the American Revolution. For example, Henry de Bracton, an English judge and scholar from the thirteenth century, wrote that a court's allegiance to the law and to God is above its allegiance to any ruler or lawmaker.


The influence of divine natural law pervaded the colonial period of U.S. law. In 1690 English philosopher John Locke wrote that all people are born with the inherent rights to life, liberty, and estate. These rights are not unlimited, Locke said, and may only be appropriated according to the fair share earned by the labor of each person. Gluttony and waste of individual liberty are not permitted, Locke argued, because "[n]othing is made by God for man to spoil or destroy."


In the Declaration of Independence, Thomas Jefferson, borrowing from Locke, wrote that "all men are created equal … and are endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights … [including] life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness." Jefferson identified the freedom of thought as one of the inalienable rights when he said, "Almighty God has created the mind free, and manifested his supreme will that free it shall remain by making it altogether insusceptible of restraint." In Powell v. Pennsylvania, 127 U.S. 678, 8 S. Ct. 1257, 32 L. Ed. 253 (1888), the Supreme Court recognized the importance of the divine influence in early U.S. law, stating that the "right to pursue happiness is placed by the Declaration of Independence among the inalienable rights of man, not by the grace of emperors or kings, or by the force of legislative or constitutional enactments, but by the Creator."
The U.S. Constitution altered the relationship between law and religion. Article VI establishes the Constitution as the supreme law of the land. The First Amendment prohibits the government from establishing a religion, which means that a law may not advance one religion at the expense of another or prefer a general belief in religion to irreligion, atheism, or agnosticism. Although the Supremacy and Establishment Clauses seemingly preclude the judiciary from grounding a decision on Scripture or religious doctrine, state and federal courts have occasionally referred to various sources of divine natural law.

For example, in Edwards v. Aguillard, 482 U.S. 578, 107 S. Ct. 2573, 96 L. Ed. 2d 510 (1987), the Supreme Court said that "the Founding Fathers believed devotedly that there was a God and that the inalienable rights of man were rooted in Him."

In McIlvaine v. Coxe's Lessee, 6 U.S. 280, 2 Cranch 280, 2 L. Ed. 279 (1805), the Supreme Court relied on the Bible as "ancient and venerable" proof that expatriation had long been "practiced, approved, and never restrained."
Confronted with the question as to whether the conveyance of a particular piece of land was legally enforceable, the Supreme Court stated that it would consider "those principles of abstract justice, which the Creator of all things has impressed on the mind of his creature man, and which are admitted to regulate, in a great degree, the rights of civilized nations" (Johnson v. M'Intosh, 21 U.S. 543, 8 Wheat. 543, 5 L. Ed. 681 [1823]).

In dred scott v. sandford, 60 U.S. 393, 19 How. 393, 15 L. Ed. 691 (1856), the Supreme Court held that slaves were the property of their owners and were not entitled to any constitutional protection. In a dissenting opinion, however, Justice John McLean wrote that a "slave is not mere chattel. He bears the impress of his Maker, and is amenable to the laws of God and man."


In the later twentieth century (in a judgment overturned in Lawrence v. Texas, 539 U.S., 123 S.Ct. 2472, 156 L.Ed.2d 508 [2003]), the Supreme Court relied on Judeo-Christian standards as evidence that homosexual Sodomy is a practice not worthy of constitutional protection because it has been condemned throughout the history of western civilization (Bowers v. Hard-wick, 478 U.S. 186, 106 S. Ct. 2841, 92 L. Ed. 2d 140 [1986] [Burger, J., concurring]). State and federal courts also have considered Judeo-Christian standards when evaluating the constitutionality of statutes prohibiting bigamy and Incest. For example, Benton v. State, 265 Ga. 648, 461 S.E.2d 202 (1995), upheld the constitutionality of a Georgia statute prohibiting incest.
Despite the sprinkling of cases that have referred to Scripture, religious doctrine, and Judeo-Christian heritage, such sources of divine natural law do not ordinarily form the express basis of judicial decisions. At the same time, it cannot be said that state and federal courts have completely eliminated any reliance on natural law principles. To the contrary, many controversial legal disputes are still decided in accordance with unwritten legal principles that are derived not from religion, but from secular political philosophy.

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/natural+law


I rest my case. Do you still stand by your claim that ancient israelites had no influence on the US justice system?


Yes, I do still stand by my claim. Individual cases presided over by individual judges are irrelevant to the question of what serves as the basis of the modern legal system.

The basis of US law is found in the constitution, which is an explicitly secular document. The divine right of kings, or any ruler was one of the things the American Revolution specifically fought against, and eliminated.

Saying "Judge X says this thing is not good because of Jesus" is irrelevant to the issue. That's what the vast majority of your post is about.
 
Upvote 0

Dave Ellis

Contributor
Dec 27, 2011
8,933
821
Toronto, Ontario
✟59,815.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
CA-Conservatives
If it is allowed in certain specific cases by the Moral lawgiver of the universe then it plainly is moral.

Why?

I am referring to most of their ideas that were incorporated into the DOI and the Constitution.

And many ideas weren't. Some ideas were better than others, and some bad ideas made it into the founding documents and laws of the country. Either way, my point stands that they weren't infallible.

Restitution, ie paying back money to the victims stolen by thieves by working, HAS worked.

Citation needed

Jeremiah 22:13 among other places.

I'm not sure how this backs up your point... the bible verse basically criticises people who cheat or fail to pay for services rendered. By definition, indentured servants are people you don't pay for services rendered.

Yes, that is all you have, an objectively irrational emotional response.

It's not irrational, nor emotional. It's an accurate portrayal of your position. The fact you don't like to hear it put into plain language isn't my problem, however that is ultimately what you are arguing.
 
Upvote 0

(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 14, 2015
6,133
3,090
✟405,773.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
The basis of US law is found in the constitution, which is an explicitly secular document.

But, I thought it was the Romans? [emoji4] I think you are confused.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 14, 2015
6,133
3,090
✟405,773.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
No that's not correct. This is taken from wiki.
The Hebrew Bible contains two sets of rules governing slaves: one set for Hebrew slaves (Lev 25:39-43) and a second set for Canaanite slaves (Lev 25:45-46).[1][21] The main source of non-Hebrew slaves were prisoners of war.[18] Hebrew slaves, in contrast to non-Hebrew slaves, became slaves either because of extreme poverty (in which case they could sell themselves to an Israelite owner) or because of inability to pay a debt.[16] According to the Hebrew Bible, non-Hebrew slaves were drawn primarily from the neighboring Canaanite nations,[22] and religious justification was provided for the enslavement of these neighbors: the rules governing Canaanites was based on a curse aimed at Canaan, a son of Ham,[23] but in later eras the Canaanite slavery laws were stretched to apply to all non-Hebrew slaves.[24]

The laws governing non-Hebrew slaves were more harsh than those governing Hebrew slaves: non-Hebrew slaves could be owned permanently, and bequeathed to the owner's children,[25] whereas Hebrew slaves were treated as servants, and were released after seven years of service or the occurrence of a jubilee year.[26][27] One scholar suggests that the distinction was due to the fact that non-Hebrew slaves were subject to the curse of Canaan, whereas God did not want Jews to be slaves because he freed them from Egyptian enslavement.

Leviticus 25
44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.

Here is the paragraph from your source that you left out.

Ancient Israelite society allowed slavery; however, total domination of one human being by another (as the Israelites suffered under Egyptian rule) was not permitted.[16][17] Rather, slavery in antiquity among the Israelites was closer to what would later be called indentured servitude.[15] Slaves were seen as an essential part of a Hebrew household.[18] In fact, there were cases in which, from a slave's point of view, the stability of servitude under a family in which the slave was well-treated would have been preferable to economic freedom.[19] It is impossible for scholars to quantify the number of slaves that were owned by Hebrews in ancient Israelite society, or what percentage of households owned slaves, but it is possible to analyze social, legal, and economic impacts of slavery.[20]
 
Upvote 0

(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 14, 2015
6,133
3,090
✟405,773.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Yes, I do still stand by my claim. Individual cases presided over by individual judges are irrelevant to the question of what serves as the basis of the modern legal system.

The basis of US law is found in the constitution, which is an explicitly secular document. The divine right of kings, or any ruler was one of the things the American Revolution specifically fought against, and eliminated.

Saying "Judge X says this thing is not good because of Jesus" is irrelevant to the issue. That's what the vast majority of your post is about.



>Judeo-Christian Roots
(Isaiah 54:10 - 17)

"We, therefore, the representatives of the United States of America, in General Congress assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the name, and by authority of the good people of these colonies, solemnly publish and declare that these United Colonies are, and of right ought to be, free and independent states; .. And for the support of this declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes, and our sacred honor." (Declaration of Independence. See also John Eidsmoe, Christianity and the Constitution, Baker Book House, Grand Rapids, MI, 1987, pp. 355-377)


>Judeo-Christian Roots
(Psalms 19:7 - 8)
American Founding Ideal:

"Suppose a nation in some distant region should take the Bible for their only law book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited! Every member would be obliged in conscience, to temperance, frugality, and industry; to justice, kindness, and charity towards his fellow men; and to piety, love, and reverence toward Almighty God ... What a Eutopia, what a Paradise would this region be." John Adams, February 22, 1756 (Federer, William J., America's God and Country Encyclopedia Of Quotations , FAME Publishing, Coppell, Texas, 1994, p.5)
"These laws laid down by God are the eternal immutable laws of good and evil .... This law of nature dictated by God himself, is of course superior in obligation to any other. It is binding over all the globe, in all countries, and at all times: no human laws are of any validity if contrary to this...
"The doctrines thus delivered we call the revealed or divine law, and they are to be found only in the holy scriptures ... [and] are found upon comparison to be really part of the original law of nature. Upon these two foundations, the law of nature and the law of revelation, depend all human laws; that is to say, no human laws should be suffered to contradict these.
William Blackstone (Federer, p.52)


>Judeo-Christian Roots
(Leviticus 25:10)(Jeremiah 34:17)(2 Chronicles 7:14)(John 8:32)

"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." John Adams (Federer, p. 10)
"It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible" George Washington (Federer, p.660)
"Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports.... And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion ... Reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail to the exclusion of religious principle." George Washington's Farewell Address


>Judeo-Christian Roots
(Deuteronomy 1:16-17) (Leviticus 19:15) (Acts 10:34) (Galatians 3:28)

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal." Declaration of Independence
"No title of nobility shall be granted by the United States"
U.S. Constitution, Art. I, Sec. 9, Paragraph 8)


>Judeo-Christian Roots
(Genesis 1:27 - 28)(Exodus 20:13-17)

".that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." (Declaration of Independence)

>Judeo-Christian Roots
(Deuteronomy 16:18) (Deuteronomy 1:13 - 15)

".governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed." (Declaration of Independence)
"The United States shall guarantee to every state in this Union a republican form of government" (U.S Constitution, Art. IV, Section 4)


>Judeo-Christian Roots
(Numbers 30:2)

"No state shall.pass any. law impairing the obligation of contracts." (U.S Constitution, Art. I, Section 10, Paragraph 1)


Judeo-Christian Roots
(Deuteronomy 17:6)

"No person shall be convicted of treason unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court." (U.S Constitution, Art. III, Section 3, Paragraph 1)


Judeo-Christian Roots
(Deut. 24: 6)

"but no attainder of treason shall work corruption of blood or forfeiture except during the life of the person attainted." (U.S Constitution, Art. III, Section 3, Paragraph 2)



>Judeo-Christian Roots
(Exodus 20:8-10)

"If any bill shall not be returned by the President within ten days (Sundays excepted) after it shall have been presented to him, the same shall be a law, in like manner as if he had signed it." (U.S Constitution, Art. I, Section 7, Paragraph 2)


>Judeo-Christian Roots
(Luke 20:25)

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. (First Amendment, U.S. Constitution)


>Judeo-Christian Roots
(Deuteronomy 6:7)

"Let [the Constitution] be taught in schools, in seminaries, and in colleges, let it be written in primers, in spelling books and in almanacs, let it be preached from the pulpit, proclaimed in legislative halls, and enforced in courts of justice. And, in short, let it become the political religion of the nation." (Abraham Lincoln, "The Perpetuation of Our Political Institutions", January 27, 1838)

Source:
https://www.nccs.net/2003-05-judeo-christian-roots-of-americas-founding-ideals-and-documents.php

I rest my case...again. But I assume that this in no way changes your opinion. I have provided numerous examples that prove you are wrong. So if you want to stick to your claim it would be foolish unless you can disprove everything that I quoted. Have fun with that. You have your homework cut out for yourself.[emoji4]
 
Upvote 0