Can morality exist without God cont..

[Dave Ellis]

◄ Malachi 3:6 ►

New International Version
"I the LORD do not change. So you, the descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed.

Kirk 5:1 - What does god need with a starship?

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

Kirk 5:1 - What does god need with a starship?

As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind.
2 Kings 2:11 NIV

 

[dougangel]

Changing your laws or agreements is a change. It's a change in values, or opinion. Under any possible definition, god changed his course of action. That requires a change in order to happen.

If someone breaks a contract in an agreement. That contract becomes void, You can change it.
Christianity is definitely a change from Judaism.

This just seems like senseless arguing so I'm going to bow out now. I have answered you.

 

[Dave Ellis]

If someone breaks a contract in an agreement. That contract becomes void, You can change it.
Christianity is definitely a change from Judaism.

This just seems like senseless arguing so I'm going to bow out now. I have answered you.

When did all Jewish people (and all of their descendants) agree to this contract?

 

[Dave Ellis]

As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind.
2 Kings 2:11 NIV

John 3:13 - No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.

So, Elijah is the Son of Man? Correct?

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

John 3:13 - No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.

So, Elijah is the Son of Man? Correct?

“Son of man, did not the Israelites, that rebellious people, ask you, ‘What are you doing?’
Ezekiel 12:9 NIV
http://bible.com/111/ezk.12.9.NIV

 

[Dave Ellis]

“Son of man, did not the Israelites, that rebellious people, ask you, ‘What are you doing?’
Ezekiel 12:9 NIV
http://bible.com/111/ezk.12.9.NIV

You didn't answer my question, is Elijah the son of man?

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

You didn't answer my question, is Elijah the son of man?

◄ Mark 9:12 ►

New International Version
Jesus replied, "To be sure, Elijah does come first, and restores all things. Why then is it written that the Son of Man must suffer much and be rejected?

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

You didn't answer my question, is Elijah the son of man?

Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?
John 3:11‭-‬12 NIV
http://bible.com/111/jhn.3.11-12.NIV

 

[Dave Ellis]

Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?
John 3:11‭-‬12 NIV
http://bible.com/111/jhn.3.11-12.NIV

Will you answer my question and stop posting useless nonsense?

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

Will you answer my question and stop posting useless nonsense?

How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye. “Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.
Matthew 7:4‭-‬6 NIV
http://bible.com/111/mat.7.4-6.NIV

 

[Dave Ellis]

How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye. “Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.
Matthew 7:4‭-‬6 NIV
http://bible.com/111/mat.7.4-6.NIV

Fair enough, I'll take that as a concession that you have no answer for the biblical contradiction I pointed out.

 

[dougangel]

When did all Jewish people (and all of their descendants) agree to this contract?

http://biblehub.com/commentaries/guzik/commentaries/0528.htm

When Moses and his advisers wrote the scripture for Deuteronomy. We are bound by what our leaders do in our countries.

 

[Dave Ellis]

http://biblehub.com/commentaries/guzik/commentaries/0528.htm

When Moses and his advisers wrote the scripture for Deuteronomy. We are bound by what our leaders do in our countries.

A) There was no Moses
B) Even if there was, he does not speak for all citizens. Are you bound to agree with everything that Barack Obama or George Bush proclaim on your behalf?

 

[dougangel]

A) There was no Moses
B) Even if there was, he does not speak for all citizens. Are you bound to agree with everything that Barack Obama or George Bush proclaim on your behalf?

A)Only crackpots are saying that. In my opinion. There are small discrepancy's in the scripture. Also a few people may have contributed scripture to the Pentateuch. there criticizing Exodus not following chronological order. But there is no law saying it has too. Moses was a real person there is so much written about him there.
B) Are Americans effected by the Declaration of Independence written hundreds of years ago ? If George bush brought in law or regulations that your using today. You are effected by his policy.

 

[Dave Ellis]

A)Only crackpots are saying that. In my opinion. There are small discrepancy's in the scripture. Also a few people may have contributed scripture to the Pentateuch. there criticizing Exodus not following chronological order. But there is no law saying it has too. Moses was a real person there is so much written about him there.

That is the accepted consensus of biblical scholars, even Christian and Jewish ones.

B) Are Americans effected by the Declaration of Independence written hundreds of years ago ? If George bush brought in law or regulations that your using today. You are effected by his policy.

If George Bush said to the god he believed in "you are now the god of all Americans", are you therefore bound to adhere to what George Bush said on your behalf?

 

[dougangel]

That is the accepted consensus of biblical scholars, even Christian and Jewish ones.



If George Bush said to the god he believed in "you are now the god of all Americans", are you therefore bound to adhere to what George Bush said on your behalf?

A) I don't believe that is the consensus of biblical scholars. you will have to prove that.
B) Doesn't the constitution say that ???? under God.
“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights …”
Ancient Israel was a theocracy.
If George Bush and his adminstration got policy through and its current. You will be following it who ever it pertains to. For example. the military, police what ever.

 

[Dave Ellis]

A) I don't believe that is the consensus of biblical scholars. you will have to prove that.

Here's the wikipedia article, references are cited within. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses#Historicity

B) Doesn't the constitution say that ???? under God.
“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights …”
Ancient Israel was a theocracy.
If George Bush and his adminstration got policy through and its current. You will be following it who ever it pertains to. For example. the military, police what ever.

No, the word god never appears in the constitution.

You have cited the Declaration of Independence, which is not a US legal document (meaning that while it is a historical document, it has no relevance to the modern US legal system). It also predates the constitution's Bill of Rights by 15 years, which established freedom of religion.

Even at that, "creator" does not mean the Christian god. That document was written by Thomas Jefferson, who was a deist and quite aggressively outspoken against Christianity. So even on that count, your argument doesn't hold water.

Regardless, this has nothing to do with policy or passing legislation, Abraham didn't do that sort of thing. God chose Abraham and Abraham accepted on behalf of the ancient Israelites. So, if God chose Barack Obama, and Barack Obama accepted on behalf of all Americans, are you and all of your descendants therefore tied to that vow that you didn't make?

 

[Ed1wolf]

The bible allows both types of slavery, and both types are immoral. Are you willing to argue that slavery is moral?

And if the economy goes bad, the wealthy still has to feed, shelter and clothe slaves. If they can't afford to pay someone, they can't afford to provide the necessities of life to them either. Your objection doesn't work.

Involuntary slavery as a form of punishment for evil POWs and criminals is moral.
Indentured servants are cheaper than free workers, because you have to pay them enough to provide their own shelter and food and new clothing if they are free. It is cheaper to let them live in one of your own buildings and let them have food from your own supplies because then you can control any possible waste of food. You can also let them wear some of your own clothes that you no longer use anymore.

 

[dougangel]

Here's the wikipedia article, references are cited within. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses#Historicity



No, the word god never appears in the constitution.

You have cited the Declaration of Independence, which is not a US legal document (meaning that while it is a historical document, it has no relevance to the modern US legal system). It also predates the constitution's Bill of Rights by 15 years, which established freedom of religion.

Even at that, "creator" does not mean the Christian god. That document was written by Thomas Jefferson, who was a deist and quite aggressively outspoken against Christianity. So even on that count, your argument doesn't hold water.

Regardless, this has nothing to do with policy or passing legislation, Abraham didn't do that sort of thing. God chose Abraham and Abraham accepted on behalf of the ancient Israelites. So, if God chose Barack Obama, and Barack Obama accepted on behalf of all Americans, are you and all of your descendants therefore tied to that vow that you didn't make?

The point is: Previous leaders and there writings affect countries and there laws and culture. So what your saying not correct again.