Can I question some things I hear, in our Charismatic movement?

[The Unforgettable Fire]

Thank you

It was a joke.

 

[Messy]

And the FIRST person that tells you "Not to touch the Lord's Anointed" should be your clue that you're IN A CULT - not a church.

Simple as that.

The Bible says it, so I watch out I don't judge anyone. By the way, all His kids got an anointing.

 

[contango]

The Bible says it, so I watch out I don't judge anyone. By the way, all His kids got an anointing.

The Bible says all sorts of things that can be taken out of context.

"Do not touch the Lord's anointed" is not the same as "disengage your brain just because the pastor says something". The Bible explicitly tells us to "test all things, hold fast what is true". Any pastor who tells us to disregard that instruction is not fit to be a pastor.

Telling us they tested it so we don't have to is a cop out as well. The Bible doesn't tell us to defer all things to the pastor, it doesn't tell us to ask someone else to test on our behalf.

There's a big difference between not harming someone, and not blindly accepting every word they say.

 

[contango]

One other consideration when people try and throw around verses like "touch not the Lord's anointed" to stifle dissent and discussion.

In the Old Testament prophets spoke directly from God. Their proclamations began with phrases like "hear the word of the Lord" and "Thus saith the Lord", and they were held to a truly brutal standard.

Deu 13:1-5 NKJV "If there arises among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreams, and he gives you a sign or a wonder, (2) and the sign or the wonder comes to pass, of which he spoke to you, saying, 'Let us go after other gods'—which you have not known—'and let us serve them,' (3) you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for the LORD your God is testing you to know whether you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. (4) You shall walk after the LORD your God and fear Him, and keep His commandments and obey His voice; you shall serve Him and hold fast to Him. (5) But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has spoken in order to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you from the house of bondage, to entice you from the way in which the LORD your God commanded you to walk. So you shall put away the evil from your midst.

Deu 18:20-22 NKJV But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in My name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.' (21) And if you say in your heart, 'How shall we know the word which the LORD has not spoken?'— (22) when a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing does not happen or come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him.

This is very clear. If the prophet encourages people to go after other gods they are to be put out from the people. If what they prophesy does not come to pass they are to die. There's no room for error here, no chance for someone to speak on behalf of God and then back down and say they got it wrong.

In the New Testament Paul is very clear about the gift of prophecy, which may be given to any Christian without turning them into a prophet.

1Co 14:29-32 NKJV Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge. (30) But if anything is revealed to another who sits by, let the first keep silent. (31) For you can all prophesy one by one, that all may learn and all may be encouraged. (32) And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.

This makes it clear that prophets may speak, and others may judge what they say. This fits nicely with the concept of "test all things". If the others are to judge, the implication is that here we have the possibility that someone with a prophetic gifting may get things wrong, may speak something that isn't word-for-word what God wanted them to say, may get some confusion between what God is saying and what they want to say and so on. This works very well - the setting is very different and so the potential damage if a word is false is also very different.

If someone speaks in a church setting and says "I really think God is calling us to..." or "I feel God is saying we might..." this is a very different approach to a proclamation "Thus saith the Lord..." or "Hear the word of the Lord..." and so can be treated very differently. A comment beginning with "I think God is saying..." invites discussion, invites Scriptural testing, invites others to add to it or question it. "Thus saith the Lord" shuts down discussion as the implication is that God has spoken and any dissent is between the dissenter and God, rather than between the dissenter and the speaker.

If someone wishes to play the power games associated with claiming to be "The Lord's anointed", to be above critique, to be obeyed without question, they must accept the associated responsibility of being excommunicated or even executed if they speak falsely.

Making bold announcements to untold thousands of people, expecting people to listen and obey without question, and then quietly forgetting about the times what was spoken never came to pass, doesn't fit in with either Scriptural models.

 

[Frogster]

It was a joke.

I knew, bro...

 

[Frogster]

I am personally bored with self proclaimed anointed teachers, and teachings, especially when they say "call now while the anointing is flowing" to give us money.

 

[JimB]

I am personally bored with self proclaimed anointed teachers, and teachings, especially when they say "call now while the anointing is flowing" to give us money.

The anointing? Flowing? I think that means, Send in that check before your brain kicks in? It's Charismatic-talk.

 

[Alive_Again]

The comment made that everyone's got an anointing (yes, if they're His). That means anyone coming against the move of the Spirit in that person is coming against the anointing. There should be an appropriate level of fear whenever anyone speaks.

Fortunately in the world of judging, many things can be very obvious. Speaking against authority (without a clear manifestation of that anointing) is unscriptural and to be condemned.

Paul spoke against the high priest ignorantly and corrected himself when he found out. Yet Jesus might have spoken against the high priest if God gave Him the judgment to do so. He wouldn't have shot His mouth off because the Word says wolves are coming to the church.

Also, leadership in the church has a clear mandate for reproof and rebuke. To go outside of that is to be out of order. I believe it is permissible (Lord giving the space) for all believers to review anything ANYONE says in the church. We don't just open up and swallow. It is obvious some people have a real "issue" with the need to say this whenever they hear a claim they don't understand or agree with. It's understood that we're supposed to employ judgment, and the scripture states how believers "walk". They die to themselves and then let that renewed nature shine through. It edifies and builds up.

If someone's ministry is deemed to be harmful, I believe it is with an element of godly fear in how you express that. Also, you're not judging the man, you're judging what is presented. You're looking at the fruit.

"Do not touch the Lord's anointed" is not the same as "disengage your brain just because the pastor says something". The Bible explicitly tells us to "test all things, hold fast what is true". Any pastor who tells us to disregard that instruction is not fit to be a pastor.

That's certainly true. I haven't met one yet who would dare say such a thing, and the Lord would surely remove one who did. But it is not your brain that is doing the judging, it is your spirit. Your spirit if it receives something (and it should on some level) will influence your soul/brain. But the brain is the one who is supposed to be the servant of the spirit (not the other way around).

Telling us they tested it so we don't have to is a cop out as well.

Have you really ever heard anyone in the ministry (not just here) tell you otherwise?

The Bible doesn't tell us to defer all things to the pastor, it doesn't tell us to ask someone else to test on our behalf.

A word for the church at large should have other prophets judging it as well as following the established order of that house. A believer is accountable to have ears and to walk in what they bear witness too (the key).

If someone wishes to play the power games associated with claiming to be "The Lord's anointed", to be above critique, to be obeyed without question, they must accept the associated responsibility of being excommunicated or even executed if they speak falsely.

You lost me there. No one is to be executed for mistakenly giving a wrong word. God deals with His people who speak presumptuously. If someone wants to serve the Lord, the Holy Spirit often lets that person know the moment the words leave their lips.

Issues like Jezebel spirits should be discerned by watchmen who are vigilant (and have an anointing to do so). I think many believers can exercise that anointing from time to time and watch the sheep from deceiving spirits. It likely is proper to go speak to your pastor if you feel led (with the proper number of witnesses if they are an elder).

But the "bitter accusation" and fleshly pronouncements because you disagree doctrinally do not make a person a watchman. In fact, many masquerade as watchmen and are tools of the devil to sow discord. Just spouting scripture about deceivers existing is highly suspect. It's like someone flashing a badge and saying that the Word of truth says that deceivers are out there and not moving in a level of authority provided by the exercise of the anointing.

Making bold announcements to untold thousands of people, expecting people to listen and obey without question, and then quietly forgetting about the times what was spoken never came to pass, doesn't fit in with either Scriptural models.

People can be mistaken or even hear the wrong spirit from time to time. Doesn't make you a false prophet. Sometimes it just means you're human. When ministers who are clearly anointed receive accusations without evidence, it is very dangerous. Those who chime in to agree (in spite of their scriptural exegesis) partake of those same sins.

Spirits like Jezebel work in the same way to garner consensus over implied revelation from God (yet it tears down established authority.

 

[contango]

I hope all the tags are in place, trying to reply it seemed everything turned to silly fonts and colours. If I appear to have misquoted you please point it out and I will gladly correct it.

I believe it is permissible (Lord giving the space) for all believers to review anything ANYONE says in the church. We don't just open up and swallow.

Not only permissible but actively required. Paul didn't write "test the things you feel like testing and keep whatever takes your fancy".

If someone's ministry is deemed to be harmful, I believe it is with an element of godly fear in how you express that. Also, you're not judging the man, you're judging what is presented. You're looking at the fruit.

If we consider someone's ministry to be harmful we should certainly examine ourselves as well. If two people disagree on something where positions are mutually exclusive, at least one of them is wrong. I have no business commenting on another's ministry unless I am willing to have someone tell me why they believe I am wrong, and to consider their opinions and test them against Scripture.

That's certainly true. I haven't met one yet who would dare say such a thing, and the Lord would surely remove one who did.

I haven't personally heard a pastor say such a thing but have come across people who were regarded as a "prophet" in their church who clearly expected that when they stated "God told me that..." that was the end of the matter and no discussion would follow.

But it is not your brain that is doing the judging, it is your spirit. Your spirit if it receives something (and it should on some level) will influence your soul/brain. But the brain is the one who is supposed to be the servant of the spirit (not the other way around).

We may get a sense in our spirit that something is wrong, and a combination of our brain and our spirit will then test the words against Scripture. God gave us an intellect for a reason.

We should still test things even if they don't necessarily give us a specific sense that they are wrong. Lots of things sound good on the face of it but then fail to withstand scrutiny, and if we figure that someone is quoting the Bible to support the point they are making so it must be OK we can end up accepting all sorts of kooky theories.

Have you really ever heard anyone in the ministry (not just here) tell you otherwise?

Worse than that, I have seen someone who was clearly regarded as a prophet within her church speak and expect instant deference to anything that sounded like she had heard directly from God. No sign of any interest in testing, discussing, nothing.

You lost me there. No one is to be executed for mistakenly giving a wrong word. God deals with His people who speak presumptuously. If someone wants to serve the Lord, the Holy Spirit often lets that person know the moment the words leave their lips.

This is where anyone who would be a prophet needs to decide whether they believe they are a prophet in the OT sense (i.e. they speak directly from God and absolute accuracy is demanded) or in the NT sense (i.e. they subject their words to testing and accept they may get it wrong). It just doesn't work to prefix their utterances with "thus saith the Lord" in an attempt to shut down any discussion and bypass any testing, if they want the freedom to subsequently acknowledge they got it wrong.

I would never tell someone they should take my words at face value, accept them as being a message from God and not test them against Scripture. If I felt God wanted me to say something I would look to test it against Scripture myself before even doing it and, depending on what I believed the scope of it might be, also talk to the minister so they could test it before I presented the word. On occasion I have delivered a word to an entire church, after discussing with the minister and securing their permission to do so. Even then, having tested it myself and tested it again with the minister, if anyone asked me about it I would encourage them to test it for themselves.

Issues like Jezebel spirits should be discerned by watchmen who are vigilant (and have an anointing to do so). I think many believers can exercise that anointing from time to time and watch the sheep from deceiving spirits. It likely is proper to go speak to your pastor if you feel led (with the proper number of witnesses if they are an elder).
But the "bitter accusation" and fleshly pronouncements because you disagree doctrinally do not make a person a watchman. In fact, many masquerade as watchmen and are tools of the devil to sow discord. Just spouting scripture about deceivers existing is highly suspect. It's like someone flashing a badge and saying that the Word of truth says that deceivers are out there and not moving in a level of authority provided by the exercise of the anointing.

I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say here. It's possible to disagree as a matter of opinion without disagreeing doctrinally. I've been to churches where I've really been unhappy with the choice of music but it's nothing to do with a sense that something is spiritually wrong, it's just been that I didn't care much for the music.

People can be mistaken or even hear the wrong spirit from time to time. Doesn't make you a false prophet. Sometimes it just means you're human. When ministers who are clearly anointed receive accusations without evidence, it is very dangerous. Those who chime in to agree (in spite of their scriptural exegesis) partake of those same sins.

One obvious question to ask here is how many times someone can get it wrong before it is concluded they are a false prophet. It's also important to consider the damage that can be done from words that are not of God. Within a church community if someone speaks a word that is concluded to have not come from God the scope is limited. If people are speaking to a wider audience the responsibility to test and be accountable is greater.

It's clearly not right to just make bold accusations without being prepared to back them up. I'm not going to say "XYZ is a false prophet" and leave it at that - if I wanted to make a specific accusation against a specific person I would want to provide specific evidence of their prophecies that have failed to come to pass, evidence that their fruit is not of God and so on. That way my accusation could be tested using Scripture. It doesn't work to demand some are tested and others get a free pass.

Spirits like Jezebel work in the same way to garner consensus over implied revelation from God (yet it tears down established authority.

I have no idea what you're trying to say here.

 

[Frogster]

The anointing? Flowing? I think that means, Send in that check before your brain kicks in? It's Charismatic-talk.

Well said, Jim.

I also never hear of the poor mentioned, to receive funds, during the "anointing flow".

 

[Frogster]

basically, the bottom line in all of this, as well as in other chats about leaders is this..

There are quite a few passages that talk about false leaders, etc, and i have posted them, however the pattern here, as well as in the past, is that certain posts that don't/can't refute the text, because they are clear, again, they are welcome to feel certain emotions, and say what they are feeling, but an emotional based post, is not a scripturally based post, so no, sorry, with all due respect, nothing personal, but i do not read all, personally, I am not into this type of chatting style, just me..just sayinnnn, and because i don't see the asked for text, text that i asked others for, nor a healthy rebuttal to the OP ones, as well as more that I have ready, I will just leave it be, thanks, be blessed, frog.

 

[contango]

Well said, Jim.

I also never hear of the poor mentioned, to receive funds, during the "anointing flow".

Poor receiving funds? Sometimes I wonder if it's the poor who are expected to send money so they can be blessed and, you know, magically get rich or something.

Sorry, I should have said "have the generational curse of poverty over their family broken and replaced with the blessings of great prosperity". Or something like that. I forget the exact wording the last televangelist I saw actually used.

 

[Frogster]

Poor receiving funds? Sometimes I wonder if it's the poor who are expected to send money so they can be blessed and, you know, magically get rich or something.

Sorry, I should have said "have the generational curse of poverty over their family broken and replaced with the blessings of great prosperity". Or something like that. I forget the exact wording the last televangelist I saw actually used.

yup, they say anything to get the money, and they ignore right in 2 cor 8, that Paul said not to give, if one does not have, he did not want anyone burdened, this as the preachers takes a one time event, for the poor, not for Paul's pockets, while they turn 2 cor 8-9, into a lifelong endless thing, to keep harranging for money for themselves, as they turn it into a command, as 2 Cor 8:8, say not by command! Wow do they ever contort those 2 chapters.

 

[Godisgood12]

Chariswho?

 

[TillICollapse]

basically, the bottom line in all of this, as well as in our other chats about leaders is this..

There are quite a few passages that talk about false leaders, etc, and i have posted them, however the pattern here, as well as in the past, is that this post doesn't/can't refute the text, because they are clear, nor do you have many protectionist verses to post, again, you're welcome to feel certain emotions, and say what you are feeling, but an emotional based post, is not a scripturally based post, so no, sorry, with all due respect, nothing personal, but i did not read this, personally, I am not into this type of chatting style, just me..just sayinnnn, and because i don't see the asked for text, nor a healthy rebuttal to the OP ones, as well as more that I have ready, thanks, be blessed, frog.

Dude you just made an emotion based post a few posts ago ... and even said, "Well said" to an emotion based post which you liked and agreed with.

 

[Frogster]

Dude you just made an emotion based post a few posts ago ... and even said, "Well said" to an emotion based post which you liked and agreed with.

but the frog often quotes scripture....in fact, for 3 years in the GT section I posted loads of them, and if asked to, was more than happy to post text that supports my view, and everyone knew, that the frog was more than willing to talk text. Did i say one can't post out of emotion? No...

altighty now....

 

[TillICollapse]

but the frog often quotes scripture....in fact, for 3 years in the GT section I posted loads of them, and if asked to, was more than happy to post text that supports my view, and everyone knew, that the frog was more than willing to talk text. Did i say one can't post out of emotion? No...

altighty now....

Bolding mine ... fair enough.

Back on topic ... here's a thought:

There are clearly various camps of believers who try to understand God, the things of God, their lives, reality, others, history, etc ... with a variety of tools. Some lean on specific tools more than others ... some camps rely on scripture, some rely on spirit, some look to leaders, some look to themselves, some look to tradition, some Law, some faith, some use everything they can get their hands on ... yada yada. This is redundant, and is nothing new.

And there are obviously wolves, sheep, and those wearing costumes.

I don't see where "fighting each other" over what is true or not, the right way verses the wrong way, who are wolves and who are sheep ... accomplishes a whole lot. It's like a bunch of people, or family members, locked in a cage with each other. Family Holiday Dinners gone bad. The Walking Believers lol.

Perhaps one of the reasons these things continue to drive believers crazy towards one another ... is because it's misdirection. It's a waste of time. Like trying to pluck out weeds of a garden that will keep sprouting up because we're not going after the source of the weeds in the first place.

So here is some text:

Eph 6:12
"For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms."

So let's take someone that many may have issue with ... like, for example, a "Send me your money now to get the double anointing, and wait there's more ! Do it within the next 5 seconds for a GIFT donation of 10$, and receive this blessed napkin that I prayed over !" and whatnot type of guy. Pointing out he may be a fraud ... is almost unnecessary. Screaming it till you are blue in the face, there are still going to be people who WANT to gobble up what he is selling. And there will be the argument that he is being used regardless, etc.

So instead of focussing on him ... the flesh and blood ... focus on what is OVER him. What spiritual forces are responsible for someone like him getting away with whatever-falsehood-he-is-getting-away-with.

Instead of going after a single Egyptian ... find a way to get to the Pharaoh. The one calling the shots.

All the accusations that believers spend time slinging at each other which seemingly doesn't get the collective group very far, seems counterproductive. Instead, why not pool your talents, resources, methods, etc ... and work as a *team*, and focus on dealing with the spiritual forces of evil that are OVER the deceived, the disillusioned, the wolves in sheeps clothing, etc. Instead of trying to nail a few wolves, try and go after the source.

 

[Andrea411]

Bolding mine ... fair enough.

Back on topic ... here's a thought:

There are clearly various camps of believers who try to understand God, the things of God, their lives, reality, others, history, etc ... with a variety of tools. Some lean on specific tools more than others ... some camps rely on scripture, some rely on spirit, some look to leaders, some look to themselves, some look to tradition, some Law, some faith, some use everything they can get their hands on ... yada yada. This is redundant, and is nothing new.

And there are obviously wolves, sheep, and those wearing costumes.

I don't see where "fighting each other" over what is true or not, the right way verses the wrong way, who are wolves and who are sheep ... accomplishes a whole lot. It's like a bunch of people, or family members, locked in a cage with each other. Family Holiday Dinners gone bad. The Walking Believers lol.

Perhaps one of the reasons these things continue to drive believers crazy towards one another ... is because it's misdirection. It's a waste of time. Like trying to pluck out weeds of a garden that will keep sprouting up because we're not going after the source of the weeds in the first place.

So here is some text:

Eph 6:12
"For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms."

So let's take someone that many may have issue with ... like, for example, a "Send me your money now to get the double anointing, and wait there's more ! Do it within the next 5 seconds for a GIFT donation of 10$, and receive this blessed napkin that I prayed over !" and whatnot type of guy. Pointing out he may be a fraud ... is almost unnecessary. Screaming it till you are blue in the face, there are still going to be people who WANT to gobble up what he is selling. And there will be the argument that he is being used regardless, etc.

So instead of focussing on him ... the flesh and blood ... focus on what is OVER him. What spiritual forces are responsible for someone like him getting away with whatever-falsehood-he-is-getting-away-with.

Instead of going after a single Egyptian ... find a way to get to the Pharaoh. The one calling the shots.

All the accusations that believers spend time slinging at each other which seemingly doesn't get the collective group very far, seems counterproductive. Instead, why not pool your talents, resources, methods, etc ... and work as a *team*, and focus on dealing with the spiritual forces of evil that are OVER the deceived, the disillusioned, the wolves in sheeps clothing, etc. Instead of trying to nail a few wolves, try and go after the source.

that is a good word, given with graciousness and here is more scripture to back it up….

3 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh[a]; rather, serve one another humbly in love. 14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 15 If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.

16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever[c] you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

God bless, andrea

 

[Frogster]

Sorry, if some people don't realize that fighting false doctrine, might not be what they like, but it is a fact..


Paul fought it, told Tim to fight too.

1 Timothy 6:12
Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called and about which you made the good confession in the presence of many witnesses.


2 Timothy 4:7
I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.



Here we see, paul call the Cretans gluttons, etc, and Told Titus to confront false doctrine, and silence the circumcision.


Titus 1:9 He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it.10 For there are many who are insubordinate, empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision party. 11 They must be silenced, since they are upsetting whole families by teaching for shameful gain what they ought not to teach. 12 One of the Cretans, a prophet of their own, said, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.” 13 This testimony is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith,



Then i can go on and on, about how paul was calling the false apostles of Corinth, fools, and ministers of satan.



Then we have John saying...


3 John 9 I have written something to the church, but Diotrephes, who likes to put himself first, does not acknowledge our authority.


Alrighty now, I am speaking against false brothers, and false teachers, like Paul did, so the galatians text posted, does not fit here.


2 Cor 11:26 on frequent journeys, in danger from rivers, danger from robbers, danger from my own people, danger from Gentiles, danger in the city, danger in the wilderness, danger at sea, danger from false brothers;


Now, as far as focussing on flesh and blood, remember that the texts posted on this thread, by peter, and paul, were indeed them fighting the spirit world, by CONFRONTING THE FLESH AND BLOOD MINISTERS....

I use caps for exclamation, not yelling..

Ok, now there are more verses to prove my point, that fighting what one believes is false doctrine, or a false teacher, is not "fighting each other", if one comes to defend that teacher, than what one thinks of me, or my actions,he is doing too, it takes two to tango, so if one thinks i am fighting them, then they must think they are fighting me, thus doing what they accuse me of doing.

Please be advised, i am mostly fighting the teachers/teachings.


alrighty now....

 

[Frogster]

that is a good word, given with graciousness and here is more scripture to back it up….

3 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh[a]; rather, serve one another humbly in love. 14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 15 If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.

16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever[c] you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

God bless, andrea

Now, in Galatians, Paul was fighting off false teachers, of whom he wished that they cut..well, read 5:12, is that fitting in with your verses here? How does that sound, like sowing hatred? No...yet you quote this about me?


He said in 5:10, that who is doing this, will be condemend, as he also called the Galatians foolish and bewitched in 3:1, and even tells of his confrontation with Peter, Barnabas, and the rest of the Jews, in Antioch, as recorded in chapter 2. Was he sowing hatred, discord, factions as he confronted Peter to his face, before all?


He even called attention to the false teachers heart motives in 4:17, and 6:12-13, so he even did the big awful thing..oh my, he judged their hearts! Wow....



4:17 They make much of you, but for no good purpose. They want to shut you out, that you may make much of them.



6:12 It is those who want to make a good showing in the flesh who would force you to be circumcised, and only in order that they may not be persecuted for the cross of Christ. 13 For even those who are circumcised do not themselves keep the law, but they desire to have you circumcised that they may boast in your flesh.


Alrighty now, hey, at least we are finally talking text.