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I believe the difference isn't in a confusion of T and t...it's a difference in what we believe takes place in receiving the Eucharist. Yes, I believe it is safe to say that EO have a huge problem with the idea of denying infants and children Communion, because in light of Orthodox doctrine and theology, there just isn't any acceptable reason for it.Shelb5 said:Okay and? Do you understand the point I am making? There is nothing wrong with giving it to them or not giving it to them. Apparently the EO must think there is something wrong with not giving it to them.
Photini said:I believe the difference isn't in a confusion of T and t...it's a difference in what we believe takes place in receiving the Eucharist. Yes, I believe it is safe to say that EO have a huge problem with the idea of denying infants and children Communion, because in light of Orthodox doctrine and theology, there just isn't any acceptable reason for it.
chanter said:Agreed. The Orthodox don't have any problems with Tradition - we don't differentiate between T and t, because we accept the Apostolic Tradition as received from Christ our God.
And yes, Christ told the Apostles to let the little children come unto Him. Come and Receive the Body of Christ and the Cup of Immortality. Should we disobey Christ?
prodromos said:Here's something I read on another forum which I thought was pertinent. It is actually two posts by two different people
When you are baptized the grace of the Holy Spirit is seeded in you and if it finds a fertile ground it starts flourishing and the more it grows and flourishes the more your ego diminishes, your empty pride and love of vain-glory fades until it disappears and then all of the sudden one day you can say it is not I but Christ in me, this is the day you enter the kingdom that is inside of you where you live and never taste death.
I completely agree with you, I would only add that once the grace of the Holy Spirit is planted in you, you (we) must water it (with prayer and reading of Scripture and the lives of the Saints) and dig around it (with alms and good words, i.e. feeding the hungry, giving drink to the thirsty, clothing the naked, and visiting those who are sick or in prison) and weed it well (fasting and ascetic practices), etc. Then the seed WILL grow and, as you said so well, it will eventually not be I who live, but Christ Who lives in me.
What I consider noteworthy is that babies and young children are not capable of watering and digging and weeding, so they need the constant fertilisation of the one sacrament they are able to partake after baptism.
Michelle, I do not agree that babies who have been baptised are perfect or like the saints. What they do have which they did not have before their baptism however, is the ability to progress in that direction.
John.
chanter said:The Holy Orthodox Church teaches that we are created good, in the image of God. Our body becomes a Temple of God when we receive Holy Communion. That is why we don't believe in cremation: we are in the process of theosis: becoming deified by Grace. When we receive Holy Communion, our bodies and souls are sanctified.
When the infant receives Holy Communion he becomes deified, sanctified, enlivened. Communion is spiritual food. Should we deny food to infants?
chanter said:East is East and West is West and the twain shall never meet.
prodromos said:Here's something I read on another forum which I thought was pertinent. It is actually two posts by two different people
When you are baptized the grace of the Holy Spirit is seeded in you and if it finds a fertile ground it starts flourishing and the more it grows and flourishes the more your ego diminishes, your empty pride and love of vain-glory fades until it disappears and then all of the sudden one day you can say it is not I but Christ in me, this is the day you enter the kingdom that is inside of you where you live and never taste death.
I completely agree with you, I would only add that once the grace of the Holy Spirit is planted in you, you (we) must water it (with prayer and reading of Scripture and the lives of the Saints) and dig around it (with alms and good words, i.e. feeding the hungry, giving drink to the thirsty, clothing the naked, and visiting those who are sick or in prison) and weed it well (fasting and ascetic practices), etc. Then the seed WILL grow and, as you said so well, it will eventually not be I who live, but Christ Who lives in me.
What I consider noteworthy is that babies and young children are not capable of watering and digging and weeding, so they need the constant fertilisation of the one sacrament they are able to partake after baptism.
Michelle, I do not agree that babies who have been baptised are perfect or like the saints. What they do have which they did not have before their baptism however, is the ability to progress in that direction.
John.
The Eucharist is not a ritual. I am sure all of us here know that God can work outside of the Sacraments. Out of the ordinary situations happen, we all understand that. But should we base our reasonings for what we do in the usual situation on what we do in the exceptional? The exceptions aren't the case for most of us.I think you are putting to much emphasize on the rituals. God can work outside of the sacraments if he so desires. He created them, but they do not bind Him.
Photini said:The Eucharist is not a ritual. I am sure all of us here know that God can work outside of the Sacraments. Out of the ordinary situations happen, we all understand that. But should we base our reasonings for what we do in the usual situation on what we do in the exceptional? The exceptions aren't the case for most of us.
Shelb5 said:And this is the difference in Catholicism, the babies who have no reasoning abilities who can not sin are sanctified completely through the sacrament of baptism. There is no need, they are divinized, they share the life of grace, they are perfected. Jesus came to heal the sick; the righteous have no need for a doctor. Don?t you think a baby who has no sin, who is baptized, re born in Christ is pure?
What if for some reason God forbid something should happen to a child before they could be given the Eucharist in EO? Are you saying they weren?t completely sanctified?
What do you think happens to babies that are miscarried or babies who weren?t baptized?
chanter said:First Prayer in preparation for Holy Communion
of St. John Chrysostom
"O Lord my God, I know that I am not worthy or sufficient that Thou shouldest come under the roof of the house of my soul, for all is desolate and fallen, and Thou hast not with me a place fit to lay Thy head. But as from the highest heaven Thou didst humble Thyself for our sake, so now conform Thyself to my humility. And as Thou didst consent to lie in a cave and in a manger of dumb beasts, so also consent to lie in the manger of my unspiritual soul and to enter my defiled body. And as Thou didst not disdain to enter and dine with sinners in the house of Simon the Leper, so consent also to enter the house of my humble soul which is leprous and sinful. And as Thou didst not reject the woman, who was a harlot and a sinner like me, when she approached and touched Thee, so also be compassionate with me, a sinner, as I approach and touch Thee, and let the live coal of Thy most holy Body and precious Blood be for the sanctification and enlightenment and strengthening of my humble soul and body, for a relief from the burden of my many sins, for a protection from all diabolical practices, for a restraint and a check on my evil and wicked way of life, for the mortification of passions, for the keeping of Thy commandments, for an increase of Thy divine grace, and for the advancement of Thy Kingdom. For it is not insolently that I draw near to Thee, O Christ my God, but as taking courage from Thy unspeakable goodness, and that I may not by long abstaining from Thy communion become a prey to the spiritual wolf. Therefore, I pray Thee, O Lord, Who alone art holy, sanctify my soul and body, my mind and heart, my emotions and affections, and wholly renew me. Root the fear of Thee in my members, and make Thy sanctification indelible in me. Be also my helper and defender, guide my life in peace, and make me worthy to stand on Thy right hand with Thy Saints: through the prayers and intercessions of Thy immaculate Mother, of Thy ministering Angels, of the immaculate Powers and of all the Saints who have ever been pleasing to Thee. Amen."
http://www.myriobiblos.gr/texts/english/prayerbook/main.htm
The bolded parts of this prayer are why we Orthodox Christians take our babies, our children, our teens and ourselves to receive Holy Communion as frequently as possible. The Eucharist strengthens and protects us from the wiles of the demons who roam about the world seeking whom they may devour. Babies and adults need protection.
P.S. St. John Chrysostom is recognized as a Holy Saint in both the Latin Catholic and the Holy Orthodox Catholic Church.
prodromos said:Michelle, can you post quotes (and links) to official Catholic statements to this effect. I want to be sure this is Catholic dogma and not just your own impressions
For the forgiveness of sins . . .
1263 By Baptism all sins are forgiven, original sin and all personal sins, as well as all punishment for sin.66 In those who have been reborn nothing remains that would impede their entry into the Kingdom of God, neither Adam's sin, nor personal sin, nor the consequences of sin, the gravest of which is separation from God.
1264 Yet certain temporal consequences of sin remain in the baptized, such as suffering, illness, death, and such frailties inherent in life as weaknesses of character, and so on, as well as an inclination to sin that Tradition calls concupiscence, or metaphorically, "the tinder for sin" (fomes peccati); since concupiscence "is left for us to wrestle with, it cannot harm those who do not consent but manfully resist it by the grace of Jesus Christ."67 Indeed, "an athlete is not crowned unless he competes according to the rules."68
"A new creature"
1265 Baptism not only purifies from all sins, but also makes the neophyte "a new creature," an adopted son of God, who has become a "partaker of the divine nature,"69 member of Christ and co-heir with him,70 and a temple of the Holy Spirit.71
1266 The Most Holy Trinity gives the baptized sanctifying grace, the grace of justification:
- enabling them to believe in God, to hope in him, and to love him through the theological virtues;
- giving them the power to live and act under the prompting of the Holy Spirit through the gifts of the Holy Spirit;
- allowing them to grow in goodness through the moral virtues.
Thus the whole organism of the Christian's supernatural life has its roots in Baptism.
Incorporated into the Church, the Body of Christ
1267 Baptism makes us members of the Body of Christ: "Therefore . . . we are members one of another."72 Baptism incorporates us into the Church. From the baptismal fonts is born the one People of God of the New Covenant, which transcends all the natural or human limits of nations, cultures, races, and sexes: "For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body."73
1268 The baptized have become "living stones" to be "built into a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood."74 By Baptism they share in the priesthood of Christ, in his prophetic and royal mission. They are "a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God's own people, that [they] may declare the wonderful deeds of him who called [them] out of darkness into his marvelous light."75 Baptism gives a share in the common priesthood of all believers.
1269 Having become a member of the Church, the person baptized belongs no longer to himself, but to him who died and rose for us.76 From now on, he is called to be subject to others, to serve them in the communion of the Church, and to "obey and submit" to the Church's leaders,77 holding them in respect and affection.78 Just as Baptism is the source of responsibilities and duties, the baptized person also enjoys rights within the Church: to receive the sacraments, to be nourished with the Word of God and to be sustained by the other spiritual helps of the Church.79
1270 "Reborn as sons of God, [the baptized] must profess before men the faith they have received from God through the Church" and participate in the apostolic and missionary activity of the People of God.80
The sacramental bond of the unity of Christians
1271 Baptism constitutes the foundation of communion among all Christians, including those who are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church: "For men who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in some, though imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church. Justified by faith in Baptism, [they] are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church."81 "Baptism therefore constitutes the sacramental bond of unity existing among all who through it are reborn."82
An indelible spiritual mark . . .
1272 Incorporated into Christ by Baptism, the person baptized is configured to Christ. Baptism seals the Christian with the indelible spiritual mark (character) of his belonging to Christ. No sin can erase this mark, even if sin prevents Baptism from bearing the fruits of salvation.83 Given once for all, Baptism cannot be repeated.
1273 Incorporated into the Church by Baptism, the faithful have received the sacramental character that consecrates them for Christian religious worship.84 The baptismal seal enables and commits Christians to serve God by a vital participation in the holy liturgy of the Church and to exercise their baptismal priesthood by the witness of holy lives and practical charity.85
1274 The Holy Spirit has marked us with the seal of the Lord ("Dominicus character") "for the day of redemption."86 "Baptism indeed is the seal of eternal life."87 The faithful Christian who has "kept the seal" until the end, remaining faithful to the demands of his Baptism, will be able to depart this life "marked with the sign of faith,"88 with his baptismal faith, in expectation of the blessed vision of God - the consummation of faith - and in the hope of resurrection.
1486 The forgiveness of sins committed after Baptism is conferred by a particular sacrament called the sacrament of conversion, confession, penance, or reconciliation.
I believe this was answered earlier in the thread.
John.
chanter said:First Prayer in preparation for Holy Communion
of St. John Chrysostom
"O Lord my God, I know that I am not worthy or sufficient that Thou shouldest come under the roof of the house of my soul, for all is desolate and fallen, and Thou hast not with me a place fit to lay Thy head. But as from the highest heaven Thou didst humble Thyself for our sake, so now conform Thyself to my humility. And as Thou didst consent to lie in a cave and in a manger of dumb beasts, so also consent to lie in the manger of my unspiritual soul and to enter my defiled body. And as Thou didst not disdain to enter and dine with sinners in the house of Simon the Leper, so consent also to enter the house of my humble soul which is leprous and sinful. And as Thou didst not reject the woman, who was a harlot and a sinner like me, when she approached and touched Thee, so also be compassionate with me, a sinner, as I approach and touch Thee, and let the live coal of Thy most holy Body and precious Blood be for the sanctification and enlightenment and strengthening of my humble soul and body, for a relief from the burden of my many sins, for a protection from all diabolical practices, for a restraint and a check on my evil and wicked way of life, for the mortification of passions, for the keeping of Thy commandments, for an increase of Thy divine grace, and for the advancement of Thy Kingdom. For it is not insolently that I draw near to Thee, O Christ my God, but as taking courage from Thy unspeakable goodness, and that I may not by long abstaining from Thy communion become a prey to the spiritual wolf. Therefore, I pray Thee, O Lord, Who alone art holy, sanctify my soul and body, my mind and heart, my emotions and affections, and wholly renew me. Root the fear of Thee in my members, and make Thy sanctification indelible in me. Be also my helper and defender, guide my life in peace, and make me worthy to stand on Thy right hand with Thy Saints: through the prayers and intercessions of Thy immaculate Mother, of Thy ministering Angels, of the immaculate Powers and of all the Saints who have ever been pleasing to Thee. Amen."
http://www.myriobiblos.gr/texts/english/prayerbook/main.htm
The bolded parts of this prayer are why we Orthodox Christians take our babies, our children, our teens and ourselves to receive Holy Communion as frequently as possible. The Eucharist strengthens and protects us from the wiles of the demons who roam about the world seeking whom they may devour. Babies and adults need protection.
P.S. St. John Chrysostom is recognized as a Holy Saint in both the Latin Catholic and the Holy Orthodox Catholic Church.
chanter said:The above prayer of Saint John is Orthodox and Catholic belief. It is still valid today. IT IS OUR HOLY ORTHODOX AND CATHOLIC BELIEF. OUR BELIEFS DON'T CHANGE OR DEVELOP.
We believe that our Holy Faith was once and for all times delivered for all peoples by Christ-God to the Holy Apostles.
Shelb5 said:Elizabeth,
We can go round and round with this if you like? The Church has no condemned this, they have not changed a doctrine, it was a practice, not a doctrine. The doctrine is the Eucharist and the real presence. It isn't so much a doctrine but a rule, a discipline as to when we give communion to children. The Church has eastern rites that still practice this, there is no problem with us if you practice this. We don't condemn you, you condemn us.
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