Can God undo the past?

[public hermit]

The article summarizes several of Damian's arguments. I didn't attempt to understand everything that is said there. Perhaps you can explain some of his arguments.

But 14th century debates did not benefit from our modern scientific understanding. My approach is based on science and it is really simple. We know that God did not only create the physical universe but also created the laws of physics. I believe that He also created laws of metaphysics.

Even though God is omnipotent, He has chosen to limit His powers so as not to transgress the laws of physics and of metaphysics. In order not to transgress the law of sin and death that He created, He (or His Son) had to die. So, God is limited by His own choice. He cannot draw a rectangular triangle or create a rock that He cannot carry. And He cannot change the past or the present or the future, except through the effects of the Jesus' incarnation and the power of the Holy Spirit functioning inside history.

Is any of what I said relevant to the discussion .

Absolutely, it is relevant. I think I agree that God has limited God's self to the creation God has begun. I definitely agree with that. I'm just not sure that makes it impossible (in the logical sense?) that God could not undo it all.

I mean, I think part of the issue is divine sovereignty. Is the impossibility due to divine will or other factors. What I can't accept (yet) is that past history is necessary, per se. I might change my mind by the end of this thread, but that's where I'm at.

 

[Andrewn]

I mean, I think part of the issue is divine sovereignty. Is the impossibility due to divine will or other factors. What I can't accept (yet) is that past history is necessary, per se. I might change my mind by the end of this thread, but that's where I'm at.

What does erasing the past look like to you? Is it like starting a new creation?

 

[Clare73]

Absolutely, it is relevant. I think I agree that God has limited God's self to the creation God has begun. I definitely agree with that. I'm just not sure that makes it impossible (in the logical sense?) that God could not undo it all.

I mean, I think part of the issue is divine sovereignty. Is the impossibility due to divine will or other factors. What I can't accept (yet) is that past history is necessary, per se. I might change my mind by the end of this thread, but that's where I'm at.

"Necessary" in the sense that God ordained it for the accomplishment of his purpose.

 

[public hermit]

What does erasing the past look like to you? Is it like starting a new creation?

Perhaps? How does God wipe away all the tears? I don't know.

 

[public hermit]

"Necessary" in the sense that God ordained it for the accomplishment of his purpose.

In that sense I agree. But I don't think that precludes the actual ability of God to undo all that has been, only because the current state (past, present, future) is held in place by God. There is no law outside God's ordination, meaning the law only holds because God so wills.

 

[stevevw]

Question: Could God bring it about that the past did not happen? Or, is such a thing impossible?

Consideration 1: The past, like the present and future, is wholly contingent. That which is contingent is possible, and therefore not necessary. And yet, it seems patently absurd that the past could be anything other than what it actually was. So, it seems the past is necessary and not something God could undo.

Consideration 2: God is omnipotent and did not create out of necessity, but freely. Since God did not create out of necessity, creation is contingent and possible, and therefore subject to the omnipotence of God. Since God freely chose to create, God could just as easily choose to un-create. In this case, it seems that God could undo the past.

Consideration 3. God has made declarations which, if the past were undone, might mean that God is a liar, which is impossible (If God says something will take place, it will take place). Even if it is accepted the God would never undue the past, only because God's declarations stand, that does not mean that undoing the past is impossible for God. It only means God has decided not to do what is possible for God to do.

What do you think?

I think it can depend on what you mean by the past and what can be undone. If its a material past then it would seem impossible to undo. What has happened happened materially and physically. But perhaps when it comes to consciousness and a spiritual life this can be undone.

I was watching a Bible series and when Jesus met Mary Magelan he cast 7 demons from her. She was depicted as a troubled women but after meeting Jesus she says that he past life was no more and she was a new women. That Jesus gave her the name Mary and this was what she would go by.

This seems a familiar story told by those who have been transformed by Christ where their past lives have been wiped and they can become completely new and different people. Their past may not have been materially wiped but the type of person they were is gone as though never existed. In some cases even those who were affected also have changed and cannot recognise or imagine the person ever being the way they were. Its like their past has been completely wiped.

 

[Andrewn]

Perhaps? How does God wipe away all the tears? I don't know.

Is the new heaven and new earth kind of like wiping the past?

If memories are wiped out, how can we be considered the same people? I ask myself this question when I meet people with Alzheimer's disease. And when I think of the oriental belief in reincarnation. Somehow orientals consider that one remains the same person with a new life and memory. I don't see how.

But again, in the case of parallel universes, I would not have done certain mistakes and perhaps have not done certain good things, either. So, is it really me that lives in the other universe?

What if certain historical events did not take place? For example, what if the American Revolution did not take place? Perhaps Canada and the US would have been one country. Perhaps slavery would have become illegal with the British Parliament decision in 1833. Perhaps there would not have been a civil war in the US with millions of people killed. Who knows? What if the Holocaust never happened?

Without our experiences, are we the same people? If my spirit were born to different parents, perhaps in a different country, am I the same person?

We believe in resurrection of the body. This implies that every person has one body and one life (as Hebrews says). But we also believe that we are born again, and became a new creation. What does this really mean?

Why did Jesus have to suffer on the cross rather than God simply erasing sin and satan from the world? The only answer I can think of is that there are certain metaphysical laws of the universe that even God would not change.

But this is far beyond my pay grade.

 

[public hermit]

Is the new heaven and new earth kind of like wiping the past?

I don't know, lol. Could be.

If memories are wiped out, how can we be considered the same people?

You're asking a lot of good questions, to which I obviously don't have answers. But your intuition about memory makes sense, and has been observed often, going back to at least John Locke (probably before that).

How does my personal identity persist through time? One possibility is my memory of past events. Although my body has gone through changes, so that I am constituted by different cells than I started out with, I can remember that all of my past experiences were experienced by me. It would seem that something similar is needed for the persistence of my identity into the afterlife. Is it really me if I can't remember anything of my previous life?

Of course, this approach has problems, as you point out, when it comes to those with cognitive challenges such as dementa and amnesia. Are they somehow not who they were simply because they can't remember? That doesn't sound quite right, either.

I think as Christians, we have the option of appealing to the soul. What secures my identity through time, and into the afterlife is that my soul is one and the same through all experienced changes. But, again, what is my soul without any memory of who I am? I don't know quite what to say, at that point.

 

[public hermit]

I think it can depend on what you mean by the past and what can be undone. If its a material past then it would seem impossible to undo. What has happened happened materially and physically. But perhaps when it comes to consciousness and a spiritual life this can be undone.

I was watching a Bible series and when Jesus met Mary Magelan he cast 7 demons from her. She was depicted as a troubled women but after meeting Jesus she says that he past life was no more and she was a new women. That Jesus gave her the name Mary and this was what she would go by.

This seems a familiar story told by those who have been transformed by Christ where their past lives have been wiped and they can become completely new and different people. Their past may not have been materially wiped but the type of person they were is gone as though never existed. In some cases even those who were affected also have changed and cannot recognise or imagine the person ever being the way they were. Its like their past has been completely wiped.

This is related to what @Andrewn and I are discussing. How far can we take this idea that the past is completely wiped. How much does the persistence of my personal identity depend on my memory of who I am through the changes I experience?

But to your point, we are told that our sins are removed from is as far as the east is from the west (Psalm 103:12). That's pretty far, lol!

Personally, I have done and said some things that I deeply regret. I'm at peace with the sins of my past because I trust God's grace and promises. Nonetheless, if I think of those things I can still feel shame and regret. Two things:
1. How wonderful it would be if those sins were not part of my past.
2. Part of who I am is the result of those sins and the growth that happened after, and not just for me for others involved. Let's imagine I said something hurtful to someone in the past, and both of us have grown because of that incident. Who I am, and who that person is, today is a result of that past experience. For better or worse, we grow from past experience. Can all of that be erased and I continue to be who I am? I don't know.

 

[Eftsoon]

I suspect that our understanding of time is limited in a similar sense to our perception of space. We have no means of perceiving 'higher dimensional time'. No frame of reference. This is analogous to flatlanders having no conception of the three dimensional. This would make sense of the idea of degrees of freedom within time.

Additionally, we can perceive the whole of a 2d shape as a single object. The same does not apply to time. We can speculate that God and perhaps celestial beings are capable of perceiving the entire causal effect web/matrix as a simultaneous whole.

 

[Andrewn]

How does my personal identity persist through time? One possibility is my memory of past events. Although my body has gone through changes, so that I am constituted by different cells than I started out with, I can remember that all of my past experiences were experienced by me. It would seem that something similar is needed for the persistence of my identity into the afterlife. Is it really me if I can't remember anything of my previous life?

You're right in saying that we are constituted of different cells than those we were born with. This brings to my mind a program I watched some time ago on Netflix about women who committed murder. Some of them were < 18 at the time of murder and they participated in murders rather than committing them. And they received life sentences.

In many states and many countries the term "life sentence" means 25 years. But in Southern states it means "until death." To me a sentence like this is reasonable for people who committed mass murders or multiple murders. But we know that the brain does not reach full maturity until age 25. I know that I am not the same person who was did many stupid things before turning 25.

Sure, murder is a very serious crime. But 25 years of punishment are sufficient in many cases. How can it be justice to commit juveniles, who did not commit a murder themselves, to live in prison until their death? Is it because they could not afford to hire a good lawyer?

 

[stevevw]

This is related to what @Andrewn and I are discussing. How far can we take this idea that the past is completely wiped. How much does the persistence of my personal identity depend on my memory of who I am through the changes I experience?

But to your point, we are told that our sins are removed from is as far as the east is from the west (Psalm 103:12). That's pretty far, lol!

Personally, I have done and said some things that I deeply regret. I'm at peace with the sins of my past because I trust God's grace and promises. Nonetheless, if I think of those things I can still feel shame and regret. Two things:
1. How wonderful it would be if those sins were not part of my past.

I think sin can be wiped away but sometimes it takes some doing. Sometimes some action/interaction is needed to help undo what the sin has caused others or has affected the person. Sometimes is is just washed away if it is something that had control over the person.

2. Part of who I am is the result of those sins and the growth that happened after, and not just for me for others involved. Let's imagine I said something hurtful to someone in the past, and both of us have grown because of that incident. Who I am, and who that person is, today is a result of that past experience. For better or worse, we grow from past experience. Can all of that be erased and I continue to be who I am? I don't know.

I think if we allowed the consequences of our sin to hold us back then this can affect us becomeing that new person. Sometimes part of wiping the sin away involves making amends or rectifying the wrongs done. Part of why we end up in a bad situation can the the result of others but in the end we each have to take responsibility for our actions and who we are.

Maybe sometimes the other person is not ready or capable of moving on. But I think we can help them move away from what is holding them back as well but if they don't then theres only so much we can do. I think the important thing is that the results of that sin can be taken away and we can become a new person where that past no longer has a hold on us.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Question: Could God bring it about that the past did not happen? Or, is such a thing impossible?

Consideration 1: The past, like the present and future, is wholly contingent. That which is contingent is possible, and therefore not necessary. And yet, it seems patently absurd that the past could be anything other than what it actually was. So, it seems the past is necessary and not something God could undo.

Consideration 2: God is omnipotent and did not create out of necessity, but freely. Since God did not create out of necessity, creation is contingent and possible, and therefore subject to the omnipotence of God. Since God freely chose to create, God could just as easily choose to un-create. In this case, it seems that God could undo the past.

Consideration 3. God has made declarations which, if the past were undone, might mean that God is a liar, which is impossible (If God says something will take place, it will take place). Even if it is accepted the God would never undue the past, only because God's declarations stand, that does not mean that undoing the past is impossible for God. It only means God has decided not to do what is possible for God to do.

What do you think?

I think................................that I obviously don't know one way or the other. But I wish I did.

 

[apogee]

Please excuse the flowery nature of this post but...

Assuming that God is outside of time, and his perspective on history is such that the beginning and the end and all that lies between is stretched out before him, then it seems to me only reasonable to assume that the act of creation, is similarly holistic, i.e. all things - past, present and future are created in the same (divine) instant.

Created that is in the same sense that a harp is created, perhaps with each string finely tuned.

Unless you are a Deist or maybe a Determinist then God by necessity interacts with this creation, generating ripples and melodies that propagate and resonate through and beyond the instrument
to create a song, such that history is not so much a fixed, unchangeable reality, but an instrument to be played by it's creator.

This is not to say that we are passive components in this instrument, but rather the notes, resonating, with one another, and endowing the song with the richness of our interactions.

So does God have the ability to change the past, well I would argue yes, and suggest that this is precisely how he interacts to shape the present and the future.

 

[nwmann]

The biggest set back to this question is that God is perfect and sees all times so he would have no need to change the past. Consider that we are imperfect but learn from our mistakes. Consider that we needed to learn from a mistake to fulfil gods plan but the mistake was a grave one. God could change the past while allowing us to retain our memory of the event so as to learn but not suffer. Perhaps we experience a side or bubble or dream reality where its as real as it gets but no memories except your own are former then you are brought back to reality. God allows resurrection of the dead. In a sense that is changing the past. I also believe the bible is backwards. The trumpets in revelation are victory trumpets. The plagues of Egypt show this backwardness... The livestock dies then gets boils? I also think the story of Lilith vs Eve is about one story Genesis to Revelation and the other Revelation to Genesis. I have also seen or been showman that future events permeate to the past... Manifestation is a Big ITCH like that... itchy..

Here is a funny I think God pulled... Its said Eve was created from Adams rib because Lilith would not lay beneath Adam... God made Eve from his rib as an ultimate go screw yourself.

Anyone into the names of God? I have had a few insights n its interesting two refer to light receptors. anyways ttyl

 

[BobRyan]

The biggest set back to this question is that God is perfect and sees all times so he would have no need to change the past. Consider that we are imperfect but learn from our mistakes. Consider that we needed to learn from a mistake to fulfil gods plan but the mistake was a grave one. God could change the past while allowing us to retain our memory of the event so as to learn but not suffer.

God sees the future like we would see the past and say "oops" -- but God can always fix the future so no need to ever fix the past

Here is a funny I think God pulled... Its said Eve was created from Adams rib because Lilith would not lay beneath ...

a pagan fiction about a so-called lilith that crept into Judaism via syncretism.

 

[Strong in Him]

Question: Could God bring it about that the past did not happen?

No.
He can change our perception of it, heal any hurts/illnesses that happened in it and restore things to us; but he cannot undo it.

Job was given more children, animals etc, not his dead ones back again.
Jonah was given a second chance, God did not undo his rebellion or his time in the big fish.
Lazarus was raised to life, but if God had gone back and changed the fact that he never died, we would not have had that miracle.

 

[mama2one]

follow

 

[Sunshinee777]

Yes, of course. God can do anything He wants. He can, doesn’t mean He will though.

 

[jamiec]

In some sense, “God could” do all sorts of things that, in fact, God does not do.

Some of the things that God does not do, result from the fact that the world in which God acts is a created entity, whereas God is the transcendent Creator of it. God cannot be seen face-to-face by any creatures on Earth, because they do not, so to speak, have the capacity to see God Face-to-face; the limitation is not in God, but in them.

God “cannot“ give a creature what it has no capacity to receive. If it is to receive what he intends to give it, and it lacks the capacity to receive what God gives it, God must create in that creature the capacity to receive what He intends to give. Which is what in fact He does for us in order to further the work of our salvation. Again, the limitation is not in the power of God, nor in God at all in anyway; it is entirely and only in the creature.

Since that is so, maybe the very same consideration applies to at least some of God’s actions in creation; there are divine actions that creation can, so to speak, endure, without being destroyed, And others that would obliterate it.

IMO, changing the past would be one of the latter, because what we call the past is too intimately bound up with the life of creatures in the present to be destroyed, without destroying them. Our past is in some sense part of us, and therefore it is not destroyed. It is in some sense a creation of God, therefore He uses it as He sees fit.

I think that the past of every human individual is too closely wound up in the past of every other creature in the universe, to be destroyed without destroying the universe in the process. We cannot see all of the remotest effects of even a single one of the acts of anyone of us; equally, we cannot trace back in every single last one of its details even one of the acts which has had a part in bringing in being any of us and our experience of what we call the present.

The very well-known Ray Bradbury story “a Sound of Thunder“ is a very nice model of an altered past, changed in one tiny detail, that eventually results in immense changes to the present from which the characters in the story have come. Our past is like that, but it is far more complicated than that very simple model which takes into account the results of only one action in the past.