Could God bring it about that the past did not happen?

  • Yes

    Votes: 3 30.0%
  • No

    Votes: 2 20.0%
  • Other

    Votes: 5 50.0%

  • Total voters
    10

public hermit

social troglodyte
Supporter
Aug 20, 2019
10,967
12,052
East Coast
✟830,417.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Question: Could God bring it about that the past did not happen? Or, is such a thing impossible?

Consideration 1: The past, like the present and future, is wholly contingent. That which is contingent is possible, and therefore not necessary. And yet, it seems patently absurd that the past could be anything other than what it actually was. So, it seems the past is necessary and not something God could undo.

Consideration 2: God is omnipotent and did not create out of necessity, but freely. Since God did not create out of necessity, creation is contingent and possible, and therefore subject to the omnipotence of God. Since God freely chose to create, God could just as easily choose to un-create. In this case, it seems that God could undo the past.

Consideration 3. God has made declarations which, if the past were undone, might mean that God is a liar, which is impossible (If God says something will take place, it will take place). Even if it is accepted the God would never undue the past, only because God's declarations stand, that does not mean that undoing the past is impossible for God. It only means God has decided not to do what is possible for God to do.

What do you think?
 

Michie

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Feb 5, 2002
165,519
55,215
Woods
✟4,585,734.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I looked it up and found this:

Yes. God can change history. He resides outside the confines of space/time and is both omniscient and omnipotent. God can change history as we, dwelling within the confines of space/time, know and understand it.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: public hermit
Upvote 0

Eftsoon

Well-Known Member
Mar 26, 2021
769
491
33
London
✟55,992.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
T
Question: Could God bring it about that the past did not happen? Or, is such a thing impossible?

Consideration 1: The past, like the present and future, is wholly contingent. That which is contingent is possible, and therefore not necessary. And yet, it seems patently absurd that the past could be anything other than what it actually was. So, it seems the past is necessary and not something God could undo.

Consideration 2: God is omnipotent and did not create out of necessity, but freely. Since God did not create out of necessity, creation is contingent and possible, and therefore subject to the omnipotence of God. Since God freely chose to create, God could just as easily choose to un-create. In this case, it seems that God could undo the past.

Consideration 3. God has made declarations which, if the past were undone, might mean that God is a liar, which is impossible (If God says something will take place, it will take place). Even if it is accepted the God would never undue the past, only because God's declarations stand, that does not mean that undoing the past is impossible for God. It only means God has decided not to do what is possible for God to do.

What do you think?

Sounds like redemption...
 
  • Agree
Reactions: jamiec
Upvote 0

Andrewn

Well-Known Member
CF Ambassadors
Supporter
Jul 4, 2019
5,801
4,309
-
✟678,402.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Last edited:
  • Agree
Reactions: public hermit
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,118
10,509
Georgia
✟899,962.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Question: Could God bring it about that the past did not happen? Or, is such a thing impossible?

It's like asking "Could God ask for a -do over- and undo the evens He oversaw so that He finally gets it righ?" -- Why would someone who can see the future clearly - ever have a need to undo-the-past?
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,118
10,509
Georgia
✟899,962.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
If you believe the Multiverse Hypothesis then God has already created all possible histories.

Ok so that is one of many reasons I don't go for the multiverse "fix" for evolution and the cosmological constant it is trying to "account for".
 
Upvote 0

public hermit

social troglodyte
Supporter
Aug 20, 2019
10,967
12,052
East Coast
✟830,417.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
It's like asking "Could God ask for a -do over- and undo the evens He oversaw so that He finally gets it righ?" -- Why would someone who can see the future clearly - ever have a need to undo-the-past?

Do you mean the past can't be undone because it is predetermined?
 
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
24,945
6,054
North Carolina
✟273,681.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Question: Could God bring it about that the past did not happen? Or, is such a thing impossible?

Consideration 1: The past, like the present and future, is wholly contingent.
Fallacious premise?

I say the past is no longer contingent.
That which is contingent is possible, and therefore not necessary. And yet, it seems patently absurd that the past could be anything other than what it actually was. So, it seems the past is necessary and not something God could undo.

Consideration 2: God is omnipotent and did not create out of necessity, but freely. Since God did not create out of necessity, creation is contingent and possible, and therefore subject to the omnipotence of God. Since God freely chose to create, God could just as easily choose to un-create. In this case, it seems that God could undo the past.

Consideration 3. God has made declarations which, if the past were undone, might mean that God is a liar, which is impossible (If God says something will take place, it will take place). Even if it is accepted the God would never undue the past, only because God's declarations stand, that does not mean that undoing the past is impossible for God. It only means God has decided not to do what is possible for God to do.

What do you think?
 
Upvote 0

Eftsoon

Well-Known Member
Mar 26, 2021
769
491
33
London
✟55,992.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Does it? Does being forgiven for x mean x didn't happen?


It's impossible for the past to actually be erased. God would be conscious of the erasure and the thing erased. Of course, God could rework the organisation of the present so it reflects a different chain of causation.

The spatialisation of time is also a very human act. I'm not sure how much sense it makes to talk about erasing the past in isolation from the present and future, since they are , perhaps, interdependent.

The closest we get to the past being wiped away is in redemption. The sin and the former creature are erased. The present and future are then altered accordingly.

I am taking liberties with your OP there - guilty.
 
  • Like
Reactions: public hermit
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,118
10,509
Georgia
✟899,962.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Do you mean the past can't be undone because it is predetermined?

I mean that the only logic behind a "need" to undo the past - is that in the present (however far that is from the past) one finally discovers that a mistake was made in the past and the unfolding of time has shown that a different past would be "better".

But since God is a being that can already see infinitely far in the future - then any future where He would have "discovered" that He made a mistake to permit some event in the past - was already known to him some infinite number of years before that event ever happened in the past in the first place. Why would He "discover" some new thing about the past - in the future - so as to even have a need to undo/redo it?
 
  • Like
Reactions: public hermit
Upvote 0

public hermit

social troglodyte
Supporter
Aug 20, 2019
10,967
12,052
East Coast
✟830,417.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
I say the past is no longer contingent

So, it was contingent, but it then became necessary? That has some intuitive appeal. But what is it that makes it become necessary? (Hint: you can't say "Because it's the past." Lol)
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,118
10,509
Georgia
✟899,962.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
So, it was contingent, but it then became necessary? That has some intuitive appeal. But what is it that makes it become necessary? (Hint: you can't say "Because it's the past." Lol)

Because God already certified/approved it having taken in - every consideration at infinite scope. What "else" would there be that was "unknown to God" in the past and then He "just now found out" so as to create the need for a "re-do"?
 
  • Like
Reactions: public hermit
Upvote 0

spiritfilledjm

Well-known Member
Supporter
Apr 15, 2007
1,844
1,642
37
Indianapolis, Indiana
✟225,404.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
God can do anything He wants. He has the power to end the world whenever He wishes. Nothing is outside of the realm of possibility for Him because all is possible through Him. However, He won't. I believe the end of the flood is proof of this. It's not that He can or cannot, it's that He won't. Furthermore, for Him to undo the past would be Him effectively saying that He was wrong, which is not possible. Ergo, He can...but He can't, so He won't.
 
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
24,945
6,054
North Carolina
✟273,681.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
So, it was contingent, but it then became necessary?
No. . .as the past, it is no longer "subject to chance," and "contingent upon" certain circumstances.

Contingency is for "not yet" reality.
That has some intuitive appeal. But what is it that makes it become necessary? (Hint: you can't say "Because it's the past." Lol)
I call it "common sense" reality-based appeal.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

public hermit

social troglodyte
Supporter
Aug 20, 2019
10,967
12,052
East Coast
✟830,417.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
It's impossible for the past to actually be erased

It does seem odd to say that past can be erased. What would that mean? But is it impossible for God to freely erase what God freely created. Is God under some obligation to preserve the past?

The spatialisation of time is also a very human act. I'm not sure how much sense it makes to talk about erasing the past in isolation from the present and future, since they are , perhaps, interdependent

That makes sense. That's part of why I included creation in the op, assuming time/space is part of the creative act, then it could be that all three would go away together. At least, it doesn't seem evidently impossible for God to undo it all.

Still, even if God wiped it all away, undoing what has been done, wouldn't God know it once existed, so that it still existed in the divine mind? How far should we take it that God's forgiveness entails an erasing of the past? I don't know.
 
  • Friendly
Reactions: Eftsoon
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
24,945
6,054
North Carolina
✟273,681.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
It does seem odd to say that past can be erased. What would that mean? But is it impossible for God to freely erase what God freely created. Is God under some obligation to preserve the past?
That makes sense. That's part of why I included creation in the op, assuming time/space is part of the creative act, then it could be that all three would go away together. At least, it doesn't seem evidently impossible for God to undo it all.
Still, even if God wiped it all away, undoing what has been done, wouldn't God know it once existed, so that it still existed in the divine mind?
How far should we take it that God's forgiveness entails an erasing of the past? I don't know.
Where are you getting "erasing of the past?"
Don't see the necessity for the consideration.

When I pay off my debt for the house (mortgage), does 20 years of payments need to be erased for any reason?

What's the problem we are addressing?
 
Upvote 0

public hermit

social troglodyte
Supporter
Aug 20, 2019
10,967
12,052
East Coast
✟830,417.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Contingency is for "not yet" reality

Isn't it still a contingent fact that my mother gave birth to me? It's not a necessary fact, unless we make all facts of history necessary. But what confers the necessity on the whole set of facts? It can't be that God willed them. God wasn't determined by some outside cause to create this particular world. In other words, the events of history are all contingent on the will of God, which itself is not necessitated. God is free. So, what would make historical facts necessary?

In all of this, I am assuming God is the only necessary being, and that all entities, relations, and events in creation are contingent on the free will of God.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Bobber

Well-Known Member
Feb 10, 2004
6,584
3,076
✟213,623.00
Faith
Non-Denom
I looked it up and found this:

Yes. God can change history. He resides outside the confines of space/time and is both omniscient and omnipotent. God can change history as we, dwelling within the confines of space/time, know and understand it.
Can God or would he change the past. I lean towards he can and does but don't ask me to absolutely prove it.

eg. Many answers to prayer I received through the years. eg One time I needed desperately wisdom from God. I prayed at my beside in a state of desperation God I don't know what to do and how to think about this. I'd say 15 minutes later I went down the stairs turned on the TV and there was a Christian ministry on. He said immediately that there was somebody out there who has this problem and you were told this or that. Don't worry about it! You were right!" Well 20 minutes after that a government agent who was causing me the problem knocked on my door. Knowing God just talked to me I actually got bold and told him that God just talked to me and I told him what happened. A look of fear came over his face and he said words like, "Really? Well um....a.....well you know think I'm just going to put down A, B and C on my report and say I really can see no problem here!" I said fine and he left never to hear from him again. (about 25 years ago)

I sometimes wonder about that. That broadcast was filmed a few months before I learned later! The details the minister said could not have been coincidence so I ask myself....what would that have to mean? Did God reach back into the past upon hearing my prayer (in what was then my present) and gave that minister what we call a word that would reach me at the appointed time? I don't know. Just something in me tells me God doesn't just direct all these things like one writing a book. In other words he doesn't put something in Chapter 3 and he's going to write in the request for it in Chapter 8. That would mean every single thought and action we have would be controlled by him. I just don't believe that and I don't think that's what the scriptures teach. So what happened to make all this possible? A changing of the past for certain reasons? I don't know I just don't know. I've always found it interesting though.
 
  • Like
Reactions: public hermit
Upvote 0