Can God Change

[Neogaia777]

If there's no possibility that someone will give in to something, it's not a temptation.
I have no intention of playing poker, blackjack or whatever it is that people play, or even the lottery to try and win loads of money - so these things are not a temptation.
However many times I may say, "I'll kill him/her/them", I have no intention of doing so - so it's not a temptation.
Jesus was led into the wilderness by the Spirit, went without food for 40 days and was tempted to turn stones into bread. If there wasn't the slightest chance that he could have done that, it wasn't a temptation. I am pretty sure that, as a human being, Jesus would have been extremely hungry after 40 days.

And the bigger picture is that if he wasn't tempted, then he doesn't know what it's like when we are tempted; tempted to misuse power, to do things to satisfy our own needs, to act unethically for our own interests/health/self survival. He does know what it's like - so he is our mediator and can intercede for us.



If the temptation is something that you might want, or consider - like making bread from stones after 40 days of hunger. Or if you make an emphatic statement - "I will give up chocolate for Lent" - or something dramatic happens - God saying "you are my Son." Then that devilish voice pipes up and says "ARE you?" "WILL you?"
Like on the adverts; people make you question if you are happy with your lifestyle and life choices, and try to persuade you that you want/need to change - which will, obviously, involve buying their product. Or that to be a cool person, and someone who will be accepted, you have to buy the latest brands/cover up your grey hair/be seen in the best places, or to be drinking the best wine, etc etc.
Those who value possessions, want to be accepted, to keep up with the Joneses, or use possessions as a form of status and security, may be swayed by such marketing - "look younger/fitter/cooler" etc.
Personally, they don't work on me, because, generally speaking, I don't care.

That last part, "I don't either", etc, lol, I've got much bigger problems, and fish to fry, than that, lol...

God Bless!

 

[disciple Clint]

Yes, but what about how "God cannot be tempted by evil"? James 1:13.

Jesus existed before He had His human body. So, His body is not really Jesus, I would say. And therefore the human nature of His body is not really His nature.

God cannot be tempted but Jesus who is 100% God and 100% man can be tempted in His human nature. You need to study the hypostatic union and also this creed.
"This creed was adopted at the Fourth Ecumenical Council, held at Chalcedon, located in what is now Turkey, in 451, as a response to certain heretical views concerning the nature of Christ. It established the orthodox view that Christ has two natures (human and divine) that are unified in one person." Now read the rest of this creed and you should understand much more about the Christology of Jesus.
Chalcedonian Creed (A.D. 451)

 

[com7fy8]

Can God Change

I have another one of those theological dilemmas for which I cannot seem to find a solution within my mental faculties to discern in a way that I find acceptable.

You can get in a problem if you compare what God's word says with conclusions not plainly stated in the Bible.

The Word is God and became 100% man while remaining 100% God in His incarnation.

This is a claim which I have not found clearly stated in the Bible. But there are groups, I suppose, who claim this.

Plus, this claim could indeed contradict what James 1:13 means. And so, this would be possibly why ones have a problem working the two ideas together . . . if in fact they are contradictory.

He will remain fully God and full man for eternity. He did not simply take on a human body, He became human in all respects.

And God's word says God can not change; so if you accept that He can not change, but then say He has changed . . . of course, you are putting yourself in a spot.

There are groups who contradict God's word. And plenty of people believe what they claim.

I believe Jesus is God and therefore has never changed from being God. There are groups who do not believe Jesus is God, and they use Bible verses and arguments to try to make Him less.

I would say that the true character of Jesus has always been divine like our Heavenly Father's character. In order to become human . . . in His true character . . . this would make Him less than God. His one true character can not be also something else, at the time, I would say.

But He was in a body, but that body was not Jesus; He was just in it. So, that body's nature wasn't His true and divine nature. And I know not of any scripture which says Jesus changed by entering a body.

Our Creator is in and through human bodies, but this does not change our Father into having a human nature.

This is very important because it was absolutely necessary for Jesus to be both man and God in order to achieve the reconciliation and redemption of mankind.

No.

He needed a flesh and blood body, as we can see through Hebrews 2:14-15. But Jesus did not change into the nature of that flesh and blood. He used that, though.

But if I use conclusions from sources who are not God's word, I can invent contradictions.

One of the cardinal attributes of God is that He is perfect and therefore He does not change in any way, He is immutable.

And in John 14:6 Jesus Himself says that whoever sees Jesus has also seen our Heavenly Father. So, Jesus said this while in a human body, which can demonstrate how Jesus even then had not changed from being divine like our Father. Both always have been divine. But ones have invented ideas that contradict this.

His body had human nature, but Jesus who is God is not His creation, including the created body of Jesus.

And likewise, I would say, our bodies are not what give us our true character and identity; we have physical bodies, but they do not decide who and how we really are, and what our real nature is.

Now here is my dilemma. God cannot change, however God became forever incarnate, that is a substantial change, how do I wrap my mind around this let alone explain it to someone?

God did not change in His one spiritual nature, by being in a physical body. God is in and through all of His creation, yet has not been changed by any of these things. And, likewise, Jesus did not change while on this earth, and His physical body did not change Him.

But humans do go through changes while their bodies go through changes; and so they suppose their character is controlled and can be changed by their physical bodies and circumstances. But Jesus has never been changed from how He is divine.

 

[disciple Clint]

You can get in a problem if you compare what God's word says with conclusions not plainly stated in the Bible.

This is a claim which I have not found clearly stated in the Bible. But there are groups, I suppose, who claim this.

Plus, this claim could indeed contradict what James 1:13 means. And so, this would be possibly why ones have a problem working the two ideas together . . . if in fact they are contradictory.

And God's word says God can not change; so if you accept that He can not change, but then say He has changed . . . of course, you are putting yourself in a spot.

There are groups who contradict God's word. And plenty of people believe what they claim.

I believe Jesus is God and therefore has never changed from being God. There are groups who do not believe Jesus is God, and they use Bible verses and arguments to try to make Him less.

I would say that the true character of Jesus has always been divine like our Heavenly Father's character. In order to become human . . . in His true character . . . this would make Him less than God. His one true character can not be also something else, at the time, I would say.

But He was in a body, but that body was not Jesus; He was just in it. So, that body's nature wasn't His true and divine nature. And I know not of any scripture which says Jesus changed by entering a body.

Our Creator is in and through human bodies, but this does not change our Father into having a human nature.

No.

He needed a flesh and blood body, as we can see through Hebrews 2:14-15. But Jesus did not change into the nature of that flesh and blood. He used that, though.

But if I use conclusions from sources who are not God's word, I can invent contradictions.

And in John 14:6 Jesus Himself says that whoever sees Jesus has also seen our Heavenly Father. So, Jesus said this while in a human body, which can demonstrate how Jesus even then had not changed from being divine like our Father. Both always have been divine. But ones have invented ideas that contradict this.

His body had human nature, but Jesus who is God is not His creation, including the created body of Jesus.

And likewise, I would say, our bodies are not what give us our true character and identity; we have physical bodies, but they do not decide who and how we really are, and what our real nature is.

God did not change in His one spiritual nature, by being in a physical body. God is in and through all of His creation, yet has not been changed by any of these things. And, likewise, Jesus did not change while on this earth, and His physical body did not change Him.

But humans do go through changes while their bodies go through changes; and so they suppose their character is controlled and can be changed by their physical bodies and circumstances. But Jesus has never been changed from how He is divine.

Interesting post, I believe you have now disagreed with every major denomination and all of the church fathers as well.

 

[com7fy8]

Interesting post, I believe you have now disagreed with every major denomination and all of the church fathers as well.

Jesus says many will be deceived; so let's consider what God's word actually says. You asked me questions; so I am offering to talk about what God's word says.

I don't even know the people you are talking about; so I can not speak for what every denominational member really believes. I know that each person is not a clone of what certain religious leaders might claim about a group (c:

So, you are welcome to share actual scriptures which say what you really believe about Jesus and if He ever really has changed or not.

I can not speak for perhaps billions of denominational members whom I do not personally know, nor can I tell you what ones said to be "fathers" really meant . . . meaning, how they really lived or did not live what they claimed to believe.

 

[chad kincham]

Can God Change

I have another one of those theological dilemmas for which I cannot seem to find a solution within my mental faculties to discern in a way that I find acceptable.

The Word is God and became 100% man while remaining 100% God in His incarnation. He will remain fully God and full man for eternity. He did not simply take on a human body, He became human in all respects.

This is very important because it was absolutely necessary for Jesus to be both man and God in order to achieve the reconciliation and redemption of mankind.

One of the cardinal attributes of God is that He is perfect and therefore He does not change in any way, He is immutable.

Now here is my dilemma. God cannot change, however God became forever incarnate, that is a substantial change, how do I wrap my mind around this let alone explain it to someone?

As the scriptures show, the body is just a home that we inhabit, and is not US - God the logos choosing to inhabit a body, does not change His nature in any way.

 

[disciple Clint]

Jesus says many will be deceived; so let's consider what God's word actually says. You asked me questions; so I am offering to talk about what God's word says.

I don't even know the people you are talking about; so I can not speak for what every denominational member really believes. I know that each person is not a clone of what certain religious leaders might claim about a group (c:

So, you are welcome to share actual scriptures which say what you really believe about Jesus and if He ever really has changed or not.

I can not speak for perhaps billions of denominational members whom I do not personally know, nor can I tell you what ones said to be "fathers" really meant . . . meaning, how they really lived or did not live what they claimed to believe.

why should I waste my time, it is obvious that you do not want any correction, you know you have an opinion that is not consistent with orthodox Christian beliefs and you are happy so when you are ready to seek information with an open mind, I will be happy to help you.

 

[disciple Clint]

As the scriptures show, the body is just a home that we inhabit, and is not US - God the logos choosing to inhabit a body, does not change His nature in any way.

Well that is not what scripture has to say but believe what you wish.

 

[Norbert L]

Can God Change

I have another one of those theological dilemmas for which I cannot seem to find a solution within my mental faculties to discern in a way that I find acceptable. ..

Now here is my dilemma. God cannot change, however God became forever incarnate, that is a substantial change, how do I wrap my mind around this let alone explain it to someone?

So why does someone want to be incarnate in the first place? It's hard to figure out never having an option myself. It's enough to wonder if He wants to share the experience with others permanently.

 

[disciple Clint]

So why does someone want to be incarnate in the first place? It's hard to figure out never having an option myself. It's enough to wonder if He wants to share the experience with others permanently.

Jesus needed to be human so that His sacrifice would remove the sins of all humans so He became 100% man and at the same time 100% God.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

God the logos choosing to inhabit a body, does not change His nature in any way.

Change is a multilayered concept. Do people change? Some aspects yes, but there is also a fundamental consistency of personality. In what sense do we mean change?

Twice the Bible says that God repented for something he had done in the past (Genesis 6:6-7 and 1 Samuel 15:11), and at least eleven times it says he repented or would repent of something he was about to do in the future (Exodus 32:12-14; 2 Samuel 24:16; 1 Chronicles 21:15; Psalm 106:45; Jeremiah 4:28; 18:8; 26:3, 13, 19; 42:10; Joel 2:13-14; Amos 7:3, 6; Jonah 3:9-10; 4:2).

And yet God's essential nature, God's goodness, Gods fundamental consistency of personality does not change.

 

[com7fy8]

Well that is not what scripture has to say but believe what you wish.

Scripture says "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever." (Hebrews 13:8)

So, I see this fits with how Jesus has not changed, ever.

 

[Neogaia777]

Scripture says "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever." (Hebrews 13:8)

So, I see this fits with how Jesus has not changed, ever.

Sin never changed/changes him, but that does not mean he did not grow, or learn...

Hebrews 5:8- "Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered."

This is also what it means in the OT as well, about God not changing, etc, it means sin does not and has not ever changed who they are or were at their core, but it does not mean they never had to evolve, or grow, or learn, etc...

We are not like that, just simply being in the presence of sin, changes us for the worst always, etc, but that never affected or changed Them in that way ever, etc...

At Their core, They have never changed, but have always been the same, but again, that doesn't mean They never had to grow or learn, etc...

Because it's obvious that They did, or had to, and did grow and/or change or evolve or learn most especially "in knowledge", etc...

But none of this ever changed who they were or are at Their core, etc...

Their "Godliness" or "God-likeness" or what was always the "Divine and Most Holy God-like part of Them", never changed, etc...

Unlike the rest of us, etc...

They never ever lost that, like the rest of us do, etc...

In the presence of Sin, etc...

No need for them to "repent", or be "born-again", like a man does have to ever, etc...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

Sin never changed/changes him, but that does not mean he did not grow, or learn...

Hebrews 5:8- "Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered."

This is also what it means in the OT as well, about God not changing, etc, it means sin does not and has not ever changed who they are or were at their core, but it does not mean they never had to evolve, or grow, or learn, etc...

We are not like that, just simply being in the presence of sin, changes us for the worst always, etc, but that never affected or changed Them in that way ever, etc...

At Their core, They have never changed, but have always been the same, but again, that doesn't mean They never had to grow or learn, etc...

Because it's obvious that They did, or had to, and did grow and/or change or evolve or learn most especially "in knowledge", etc...

But none of this ever changed who they were or are at Their core, etc...

Their "Godliness" or "God-likeness" or what was always the "Divine and Most Holy God-like part of Them", never changed, etc...

Unlike the rest of us, etc...

They never ever lost that, like the rest of us do, etc...

In the presence of Sin, etc...

No need for them to "repent", or be "born-again", like a man does have to ever, etc...

God Bless!

When and where it says "God repented", in the OT, it simply means only that He changed His mind, and does not mean He had to ever repent of who He was/is in the way a man does (have to) in this world, or in the presence of sin, etc...

It makes us "evil" for a time, but it never did this with God in the OT, or Jesus in the NT, etc...

God Bless!

 

[disciple Clint]

Scripture says "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever." (Hebrews 13:8)

So, I see this fits with how Jesus has not changed, ever.

I was going to let you continue in not accepting that Jesus is 100% human as well as divine but I just can not because it is important to understand that if Jesus was not human just like you and I as well as divine, then we are not saved. That is right we are not saved. Why? Because if a human was not on that cross then humanity did not participate in the atonement because there was no sacrifice by a human therefore humans are not justified. That which was not sacrificed on that cross was not saved. I am providing 3 sources of evidence below because it is vitally important for salvation that you understand that Jesus was human as well as divine.
"Jesus had to be born as a human being for several reasons. One is outlined in Galatians 4:4–5: “But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law, to redeem those under law, that we might receive the full rights of sons.” Only a man could be “born under the law.” No animal or angelic being is “under the law.” Only humans are born under the law, and only a human being could redeem other human beings born under the same law. Born under the law of God, all humans are guilty of transgressing that law. Only a perfect human—Jesus Christ—could perfectly keep the law and perfectly fulfill the law, thereby redeeming us from that guilt. Jesus accomplished our redemption on the cross, exchanging our sin for His perfect righteousness (2 Corinthians 5:21).

Another reason Jesus had to be fully human is that God established the necessity of the shedding of blood for the remission of sins (Leviticus 17:11; Hebrews 9:22). The blood of animals, although acceptable on a temporary basis as a foreshadowing of the blood of the perfect God-Man, was insufficient for the permanent remission of sin because “it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins” (Hebrews 10:4). Jesus Christ, the perfect Lamb of God, sacrificed His human life and shed His human blood to cover the sins of all who would ever believe in Him. If He were not human, this would have been impossible." Why is the humanity of Jesus important? | GotQuestions.org
"Q: Why must he be a true and righteous man?

A: He must be a true man because the justice of God requires that the same human nature which has sinned should pay for sin. He must be a righteous man because one who himself is a sinner he cannot pay for others.

The answer here is focusing on the need for a real human nature. Why? Because the penalty for sin requires suffering in body and soul. And only a human can do this (cf. Heb. 2:14; John 12:27). Jesus did not only share in our nature but also he had to identify with us in the experiences of the fall (Heb. 2:17-18). But it was essential that Christ himself did not sin in this identification with us. Otherwise, how could he pay for our sin? Berkhof writes, “Only such a truly human Mediator, who had experimental knowledge of the woes of mankind and rose superior to all temptations, could enter sympathetically into all the experiences, the trials, and the temptations of man (Heb. 2:17, 18; 4:15-5:2) and be a perfect human example for his followers (Matt. 11:29; Mark 10:39; John 13:13-15; Phil. 2:5-8; Heb. 12:2-4; 1 Pet. 2:21). L. Berkhof, Systematic Theology, p. 319.

In short, the answer is Jesus had to be a man so that he could identify with us, suffering in our place and sympathizing with us in our weakness."
Why Must Jesus Be both Human and Divine?
"The Incarnation Of Jesus Christ

God became a human in Jesus Christ. This is known as the "incarnation." Incarnation is from the Latin meaning "in flesh." Although it is not a biblical word it presents a biblical truth. Jesus is the eternal God who became flesh and blood. Jesus became a man at a point in time in history. He did so without giving up His oneness with God. He became a human being without a sin nature. "In flesh" means more than Jesus had a physical body - He was a complete human personality.

Jesus Took On A New Nature

By the incarnation we do not mean that God was turned into a human or that Jesus ceased to be God while he was a man. The incarnation means that while remaining God, Jesus took upon a new nature - a human nature. The incarnation was the uniting the divine and the human into one being, one person. Jesus Christ was fully God and fully human."
Why Did Jesus, as God, Become a Human Being?

 

[com7fy8]

Sin never changed/changes him, but that does not mean he did not grow, or learn...

Hebrews 5:8- "Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered."

Ah-hah! So, from this ones can claim that Jesus changed. And we do have >

"And the Child grew and became strong in spirit, filled with wisdom; and the grace of God was upon Him." (Luke 2:40)

So . . . you can't grow without changing, of course.

But I understand that Jesus was God in human form, but not human nature, and His growing means how He developed along with His body growing for what He would do in His body. But Jesus Himself was not the same nature as His physical body.

And humans have a different spirit, than Jesus is. So, it is impossible for Him to have the same spiritual nature as a human-spirited being.

So, in any case, no matter what anybody says, yes Jesus came to this earth in the flesh and Jesus died for our sins; so thank You, God!

 

[renniks]

Can God Change

I have another one of those theological dilemmas for which I cannot seem to find a solution within my mental faculties to discern in a way that I find acceptable.

The Word is God and became 100% man while remaining 100% God in His incarnation. He will remain fully God and full man for eternity. He did not simply take on a human body, He became human in all respects.

This is very important because it was absolutely necessary for Jesus to be both man and God in order to achieve the reconciliation and redemption of mankind.

One of the cardinal attributes of God is that He is perfect and therefore He does not change in any way, He is immutable.

Now here is my dilemma. God cannot change, however God became forever incarnate, that is a substantial change, how do I wrap my mind around this let alone explain it to someone?

I don't think it's exactly true that God cannot change in any way whatsoever. His nature can't change, but obviously he can have new experiences. Whether these happen in any particular sequence for an eternal being is another question.

 

[com7fy8]

I was going to let you continue in not accepting that Jesus is 100% human as well as divine but I just can not

I understand that in this forum you are welcome to share what you really have to say. Plus, I am not the only one here; we even have guests who simply read what is written here but they do not join in; so to me it makes sense you would make your view clear so others can read it, even if I do not agree.

it is important to understand that if Jesus was not human just like you and I as well as divine, then we are not saved. That is right we are not saved. Why? Because if a human was not on that cross then humanity did not participate in the atonement because there was no sacrifice by a human therefore humans are not justified. That which was not sacrificed on that cross was not saved.

I find this to be perfectly clear, though I find reason to question it.

My simple thing has been that only Jesus as God could do our dying right for our sins; and so I say Jesus needed to be God in order for us to be saved! No less could have done His dying in His way so pleasing to our Father . . . "for a sweet-smelling aroma," we have in Ephesians 5:2.

And His body, actually, was not really human, I guess we could say, since it was physical, and humans have a human spirit that is not physical. But Jesus needed His body so He could die.

"a body You have prepared for Me." (in Hebrews 10:5) So, what He needed was His human physical body, for the sacrifice; and He needed Himself so He could do the sacrifice really right.

Nothing human could have done our dying right for our sins.

 

[disciple Clint]

Ah-hah! So, from this ones can claim that Jesus changed. And we do have >

"And the Child grew and became strong in spirit, filled with wisdom; and the grace of God was upon Him." (Luke 2:40)

So . . . you can't grow without changing, of course.

But I understand that Jesus was God in human form, but not human nature, and His growing means how He developed along with His body growing for what He would do in His body. But Jesus Himself was not the same nature as His physical body.

And humans have a different spirit, than Jesus is. So, it is impossible for Him to have the same spiritual nature as a human-spirited being.

So, in any case, no matter what anybody says, yes Jesus came to this earth in the flesh and Jesus died for our sins; so thank You, God!

But I understand that Jesus was God in human form, but not human nature,

Your understanding is not correct, which is why you do not understand the scripture in question, once you understand that Jesus had a fully human nature and not just a human body you will understand that His human nature did mature and learn just as all human natures do.

 

[disciple Clint]

I don't think it's exactly true that God cannot change in any way whatsoever. His nature can't change, but obviously he can have new experiences. Whether these happen in any particular sequence for an eternal being is another question.

How would God have new experiences, He is outside of time and He knows everything that has or ever will happen?