Can God Change

[Akita Suggagaki]

One of the cardinal attributes of God is that He is perfect and therefore He does not change in any way, He is immutable.

Perfection can change. Why not. Think of a beautiful sunset. Gad may in fact be change itself, living creativity. What does not change is God's goodness and love.

Maybe you should joint me in reading process theologians.

 

[ewq1938]

This is an interesting post; I want to begin by noting that in addition to Malachi 3:6 , we also have Job 23:13, and in the New Testament, Hebrews 13:8 and James 1:17, all of which attest to the immutability of the Divine Nature.

That's a great list of verses. Some are clearly about the Father alone, and some Jesus alone and in one I can see being about the full Trinity. Let us know if you do recall any more. I am making a file to store them.

 

[The Liturgist]

That's a great list of verses. Some are clearly about the Father alone, and some Jesus alone and in one I can see being about the full Trinity. Let us know if you do recall any more. I am making a file to store them.

Perhaps tomorrow after my work is complete I might be able to dig up some more.

 

[HTacianas]

Can God Change

I have another one of those theological dilemmas for which I cannot seem to find a solution within my mental faculties to discern in a way that I find acceptable.

The Word is God and became 100% man while remaining 100% God in His incarnation. He will remain fully God and full man for eternity. He did not simply take on a human body, He became human in all respects.

This is very important because it was absolutely necessary for Jesus to be both man and God in order to achieve the reconciliation and redemption of mankind.

One of the cardinal attributes of God is that He is perfect and therefore He does not change in any way, He is immutable.

Now here is my dilemma. God cannot change, however God became forever incarnate, that is a substantial change, how do I wrap my mind around this let alone explain it to someone?

It might help to think of it this way. We say that the Holy Spirit indwells a person. But we never say that the Holy Spirit changes at all at that indwelling. I see no reason in casual conversation not to make a comparison between that indwelling and the Incarnation. The Word became incarnate, yet did not change.

 

[Neogaia777]

Can God Change

I have another one of those theological dilemmas for which I cannot seem to find a solution within my mental faculties to discern in a way that I find acceptable.

The Word is God and became 100% man while remaining 100% God in His incarnation. He will remain fully God and full man for eternity. He did not simply take on a human body, He became human in all respects.

This is very important because it was absolutely necessary for Jesus to be both man and God in order to achieve the reconciliation and redemption of mankind.

One of the cardinal attributes of God is that He is perfect and therefore He does not change in any way, He is immutable.

Now here is my dilemma. God cannot change, however God became forever incarnate, that is a substantial change, how do I wrap my mind around this let alone explain it to someone?

God the Father cannot change, or learn, or grow, or evolve, etc, but neither can He show Himself to us without using those who could or can.

God Bless!

 

[ewq1938]

The Word became incarnate, yet did not change.

Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Seems like a big change to me. I see the resurrection and his body changing into immortal as further changes the Word experienced. God the Father doesn't change but God the Son has experienced many changes....being born, being alive being dead being alive again, from mortal to immortal body. Scripture even says "learned he obedience by the things which he suffered" which is a change of attitude.

 

[disciple Clint]

Who sat on the Mt of Olives and spoke the Olivet Discourse? There's 4 choices:

1. God the Father
2. God the Son
3. God the Holy Spirit
4. All three of them

Technically all three of them since anything done outside the Trinity itself involves all three persons.

 

[disciple Clint]

Perfection can change. Why not. Think of a beautiful sunset. Gad may in fact be change itself, living creativity. What does not change is God's goodness and love.

Maybe you should joint me in reading process theologians.

Any change to perfection would result in something less than perfection so God does not change. Thanks but no thanks on the process theology, I didn't like it the first time I had to study it.

 

[disciple Clint]

It might help to think of it this way. We say that the Holy Spirit indwells a person. But we never say that the Holy Spirit changes at all at that indwelling. I see no reason in casual conversation not to make a comparison between that indwelling and the Incarnation. The Word became incarnate, yet did not change.

But indeed He did change as a result of the hypostatic union

 

[disciple Clint]

God the Father cannot change, or learn, or grow, or evolve, etc, but neither can He show Himself to us without using those who could or can.

God Bless!

If I follow that logic it would result in Jesus not being God.

 

[disciple Clint]

Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Seems like a big change to me. I see the resurrection and his body changing into immortal as further changes the Word experienced. God the Father doesn't change but God the Son has experienced many changes....being born, being alive being dead being alive again, from mortal to immortal body. Scripture even says "learned he obedience by the things which he suffered" which is a change of attitude.

Those changes apply to the human nature of Jesus, while His divine nature experiences those thing to some degree still God cannot die, He can experience death but He cannot die.

 

[disciple Clint]

Well, not quite, because the ancient faith of Ephesus and Chalcedon, contra Nestorius and Eutyches is that God the Son became fully God and fully man without change, confusion, separation or division. The incarnation therefore does not constitute a change in the divine essence.

However, the same Ephesian and Chalcedonian theology, as advanced by the non-Chalcedonian (but Ephesian) Oriental Orthodox bishop St. Severus of Antioch, and later heavily emphasized in Lutheranism, as @ViaCrucis and @MarkRohfrietsch might confirm, is the principle of communicatio idiomatum, where in a Christological context, we avoid assigning attributes or actions, that is to say, idioms, to either the human or divine nature, as the Nestorian hymnographer Mar Narsai once did in a poem that I personally find unedifying.

Of course, Nestorianism is a valid Nicene Christology, but the majority of churches, including the Assyrian Church of the East, which venerates Nestorius as a saint, do not use his Christology (most churches use Chalcedonian Christology, the Oriental Orthodox use the Cyrillian Miaphysite Christology associated with the earlier Council of Ephesus, and the Assyrians use a translation of it developed by Mar Babai, which really differs only in the retention of a few Nestorian-influenced hymns, a loathing for St. Cyril of Alexandria, and the use of the term Christotokos instead of Theotokos to refer to the Blessed Virgin Mary; all three affirm the union of the human and divine natures in the Incarnation without change, confusion, separation or division, and Miaphysite and Assyrian Christology were determined by Cardinal Ratzinger, before he became Pope Benedict XVI, and the Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith over which he presided, to be compatible with Chalcedon Christology; some Eastern Orthodox churches and the Church of England had previously come to the same conclusions.

That all looks correct but I am still left with the original dilemma

 

[sparow]

Well not exactly solved because Jesus is still 100% God and God does not change.

I am not sure what you are looking for; clearly, according to the prophet God does not change; you may have a problem with context. If you are worried about the Word, also known as Jehovah taking on human form in becoming Jesus, you could stamp your foot and say that is God changing, but that is not what God through the prophet is talking about; He is saying is that his purpose, His covenant, His Law, and what He requires from Israel, does not change; regardless of what form God is in His mind does not change. Sadly today most of Israel think they are Gentile and that God has changed. What God required of Israel of old He still requires of Israel today.

 

[Neogaia777]

If I follow that logic it would result in Jesus not being God.

Not if you stick to scripture, and stick to it or with it "no matter how hard it gets", etc, because eventually, it does get easier, etc...

God Bless!

 

[disciple Clint]

I am not sure what you are looking for; clearly, according to the prophet God does not change; you may have a problem with context. If you are worried about the Word, also known as Jehovah taking on human form in becoming Jesus, you could stamp your foot and say that is God changing, but that is not what God through the prophet is talking about; He is saying is that his purpose, His covenant, His Law, and what He requires from Israel, does not change; regardless of what form God is in His mind does not change. Sadly today most of Israel think they are Gentile and that God has changed. What God required of Israel of old He still requires of Israel today.

I think you missed the question in my OP, you seem to be addressing a different question.

 

[Eloy Craft]

Good question.
God made man in His own image and likeness. We lost that. No reason for God to be like something other than Himself to incarnate as one of us.

He emptied Himself of divine powers since an earthly body is unable to contain them.
We call Jesus the second Adam because He restored God's image and likeness.

 

[com7fy8]

Now here is my dilemma. God cannot change, however God became forever incarnate, that is a substantial change, how do I wrap my mind around this let alone explain it to someone?

Because God can not change, being in a body did not change Him. A physical body does not have power to change God. Even while Jesus was on the cross, that hate and torture did not have power to change Jesus from loving. Because Jesus love is better than human love. Jesus was not human in how He loved. So, I will offer how Jesus has never been truly human.

His body is physical, but Jesus is spiritual. Maybe it is like how water in a bottle does not change from being water.

Another item > God can not do evil (James 1:13), but humans can. So, Jesus never has changed to become human, plus He never has been human.

 

[disciple Clint]

Good question.
God made man in His own image and likeness. We lost that. No reason for God to be like something there than Himself to incarnate as one of us.

He emptied Himself of divine powers since an earthly body is unable to contain them.
We call Jesus the second Adam because He restored God's image and likeness.

He emptied Himself of divine powers since an earthly body is unable to contain them.

NO He did not empty Himself of His divine powers and yes a human body can contain them. His mother contained them and He contained them. In the Gospels Jesus uses His powers to prove that He is God.
"Notice that Philippians 2:7 does not specify what the Son of God “emptied” Himself of. And here we must be careful not to go beyond what Scripture says. Jesus did not empty Himself of His divine attributes—no such attributes are mentioned in the verse, and it is obvious in the gospels that Jesus possessed the power and wisdom of God. Calming the storm is just one display of Jesus’ divine power (Mark 4:39). In coming to earth, the Son of God did not cease to be God, and He did not become a “lesser god.” Whatever the “emptying” entailed, Jesus remained fully God: “in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form” (Colossians 2:9).

It is better to think of Christ’s “emptying” of Himself as a laying aside of the privileges that were His in heaven. Rather than stay on His throne in heaven, Jesus “made himself nothing” (as the NIV translates Philippians 2:7). When He came to earth, “he gave up his divine privileges” (NLT). He veiled His glory, and He chose to occupy the position of a slave."
What is the kenosis? | GotQuestions.org

 

[SkyWriting]

Can God Change

I have another one of those theological dilemmas for which I cannot seem to find a solution within my mental faculties to discern in a way that I find acceptable.

The Word is God and became 100% man while remaining 100% God in His incarnation. He will remain fully God and full man for eternity. He did not simply take on a human body, He became human in all respects.

This is very important because it was absolutely necessary for Jesus to be both man and God in order to achieve the reconciliation and redemption of mankind.

One of the cardinal attributes of God is that He is perfect and therefore He does not change in any way, He is immutable.

Now here is my dilemma. God cannot change, however God became forever incarnate, that is a substantial change, how do I wrap my mind around this let alone explain it to someone?

God exists outside of time. Man does not. For us, there is always a past and a future. Likely because we are dying and "time" is what we imagine is in between.

 

[disciple Clint]

Because God can not change, being in a body did not change Him. A physical body does not have power to change God. Even while Jesus was on the cross, that hate and torture did not have power to change Jesus from loving. Because Jesus love is better than human love. Jesus was not human in how He loved. So, I will offer how Jesus has never been truly human.

His body is physical, but Jesus is spiritual. Maybe it is like how water in a bottle does not change from being water.

Another item > God can not do evil (James 1:13), but humans can. So, Jesus never has changed to become human, plus He never has been human.

Jesus is 100% human and 100% God He has a divine nature and a human nature. Yes God (the Word in this case) was spirit and then He became incarnate, that is a change from being spirit only.