Can God be improved?

[ewq1938]

He is fully God, so He is God.
As He is also fully human, He has a human soul.

Did you know God the Father has a soul? It is not a human soul so why would the second person of the Trinity have a human soul? Wouldn't he have a divine soul from before becoming human?

 

[ViaCrucis]

Did you know God the Father has a soul? It is not a human soul so why would the second person of the Trinity have a human soul? Wouldn't he have a divine soul from before becoming human?

Well, except God doesn't have a soul. I have no doubt that the use of "nephesh" in the Old Testament is used in relation to God, but it makes absolutely no sense to speak of God as "having a soul". The "soul" in the Hebrew mind referred to the breath of life, that's why it says God breathed into Adam's nostrils and he became a living soul. From inanimate matter to animate creature. As such I have no doubt that "nephesh" is used in relation to God in the sense of God's life, breath, or in some various figurative manner. But God, very obviously, isn't a creature sustained by breath, or an animal of any sort--He's God. To thus speak of God having a soul is inherently nonsense.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ewq1938]

Well, except God doesn't have a soul. I have no doubt that the use of "nephesh" in the Old Testament is used in relation to God, but it makes absolutely no sense to speak of God as "having a soul". The "soul" in the Hebrew mind referred to the breath of life, that's why it says God breathed into Adam's nostrils and he became a living soul. From inanimate matter to animate creature. As such I have no doubt that "nephesh" is used in relation to God in the sense of God's life, breath, or in some various figurative manner. But God, very obviously, isn't a creature sustained by breath, or an animal of any sort--He's God. To thus speak of God having a soul is inherently nonsense.

But the bible does say the Father has a soul. If that seems nonsense perhaps you should investigate your current beliefs on the matter.

Isa_1:14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.


Isa_42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

Mat 12:18 Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.

He has a spirit also.

So, Jesus has a divine soul, not a human soul because he is God the Son and was before the incarnation.

 

[marineimaging]

Do you think it possible for God to change any facet of himself such that some time later, than the beginning, he has improved any part of himself?

Scripture of course says the Son of God was made lower, so we can't doubt that God could "descend to a lower level" temporarily. And if he was lowered, it does not count for my question that when he undoes his lowering as an improvement.

Hebrews 2:9 But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

Malachi 3:6 “I the Lord do not change. So you, the descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed.

James 1:17 Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.

Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.​

But, there are those two references to Jesus being made perfect in his death.

Hebrews 5:8 Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered 9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him

Hebrews 7:27 Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself. 28 For the law appoints as high priests men in all their weakness; but the oath, which came after the law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect forever.​

Of course I don't think the Son of God was ever less than perfect. So I think this a reference to the other definition of perfect, to be complete. Jesus completed God's greatest act of love for us when he died for our salvation. So Jesus was not made better, he just completed his earthly mission.

So my question, can God ever improve any part of himself, I say no.

Maybe I am too literal for my own good. You submit a compelling argument, but I consider the question blasphemous. To even ask if He can be..., I can't even finish it. Sorry, but I would never as such a question.

 

[hedrick]

Soul is a way of speaking of a person’s core being, and in the OT sometimes the oerson’s life. In that sense you can speak of God having or being a soul.

 

[LadyCrosstalk]

On the one hand, we know Jesus increased or grew in wisdom (Luke 2:52).
Yet, on the other hand, we also know that the fulness of the Godhead dwelled within the body of Christ.

"For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily." (Colossians 2:9).

The word "Godhead" is in reference to the Trinity. I know others believe it is in reference to deity. Either way, it makes the same point that Jesus is fully and 100% God in every respect and way. The fulness of deity or the Godhead was in the man Christ Jesus. This means He fully had the power of God because the fulness of God was in Him. So the only logical conclusion that we are led to believe is that the Eternal Word (the Logos) suppressed His divine attribute of Omniscience during His Earthly life.

Jesus was fully God and fully Man at the same time. The fancy theological phrase for that is the hypostatic union. Since the man, Jesus, was mortal, (immortality is one of the marks of deity) He was made perfect in His resurrection to immortality.

 

[ewq1938]

Jesus was fully God and fully Man at the same time. The fancy theological phrase for that is the hypostatic union. Since the man, Jesus, was mortal, (immortality is one of the marks of deity) He was made perfect in His resurrection to immortality.

Exactly! This is also why he is no longer human because that was done away with in the perfecting leaving him 100 percent God again. The human part was only to serve as a proper sacrifice on the cross. God does not and is not human any more

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Jesus was fully God and fully Man at the same time. The fancy theological phrase for that is the hypostatic union. Since the man, Jesus, was mortal, (immortality is one of the marks of deity) He was made perfect in His resurrection to immortality.

I am aware of the Hypostatic Union teaching.
I do not agree with it.
Jesus did not have a human soul or human spirit.
His soul and spirit was the Eternal Logos.
Jesus merely suppressed His divine attribute of Omniscience so as to be like a man.
The body was just an empty shell or temple.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

Maybe I am too literal for my own good. You submit a compelling argument, but I consider the question blasphemous. To even ask if He can be..., I can't even finish it. Sorry, but I would never as such a question.

So many No's to this poll.
Do you believe the Son of God had a spiritual body before creation?
Do you believe the Son of God has a physical body in heaven now?
Is the Son of God's body an important part of his being?
Think things through a little more before you are so quick to absolve yourself.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

In the process of assuming humanity, his divinity did not change or lose qualities attributed to God.

But scripture is very clear, his divinity did change, it was lowered. What that means is argued and I have not seen a good argument yet.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

Probably depends on what you mean by "part", but yes the Lord's body is part of Him. And by "the Lord" and by "Him" I mean He who is the uncreated, eternal Son and Word of God who became flesh, was conceived, was born, lived, suffered, died, rose, ascended, and is coming again.

Do you believe the eternal Son of God had a spiritual body before creation?

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

Jesus was God in his person, man in his soul, and man in his body.

We were arguing over the Son of God changing. You say not. I say his body did.

Jesus caused the universe to exist as God while he wept as a man. God does not change.

Your post gives me the impression that you think the Son of God had a physical body at creation. Do you believe so?

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

So Jesus increased in wisdom, which I'd consider improvement. I understand that some people's doctrine doesn't allow for that, but if so they need to adjust their doctrine.

Your example would be an improvement after being lowered. As long as you don't think of an example of Jesus being "improved" to greater than he was at creation, I think you have a sound doctrine. It would be unimaginable to think that God could be made better by his life as a man on earth.

Can you apply this logic to his body?

 

[ewq1938]

But scripture is very clear, his divinity did change, it was lowered.

The divine part of Christ did not change or was lowered. Divine remained divine at all times.

 

[Dr Bruce Atkinson]

Do you think it possible for God to change any facet of himself such that some time later, than the beginning, he has improved any part of himself?

Scripture of course says the Son of God was made lower, so we can't doubt that God could "descend to a lower level" temporarily. And if he was lowered, it does not count for my question that when he undoes his lowering as an improvement.

Hebrews 2:9 But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

Malachi 3:6 “I the Lord do not change. So you, the descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed.

James 1:17 Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.

Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.​

But, there are those two references to Jesus being made perfect in his death.

Hebrews 5:8 Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered 9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him

Hebrews 7:27 Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself. 28 For the law appoints as high priests men in all their weakness; but the oath, which came after the law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect forever.​

Of course I don't think the Son of God was ever less than perfect. So I think this a reference to the other definition of perfect, to be complete. Jesus completed God's greatest act of love for us when he died for our salvation. So Jesus was not made better, he just completed his earthly mission.

So my question, can God ever improve any part of himself, I say no.

The question, can God improve, got my attention because this is about the silliest and most ridiculous question I have ever heard. And you have already answered the question with the scriptures. God lives in eternity and knows everything before it can occur. He can make no real mistake for He is perfect and He has already made the wisest choices to deal with all human mistakes. It will all turn out exactly as He has willed. And it will be VERY, VERY GOOD!

 

[ViaCrucis]

Do you believe the eternal Son of God had a spiritual body before creation?

No. The only body the Son has is the body He received in the Incarnation.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ewq1938]

No. The only body the Son has is the body He received in the Incarnation.

He doesn't have that's same body though...it was changed through the process of perfection also called glorification. It looks the same, has the same scars but is not composed of the same flesh that it originally had. Being God the body would be divine in substance now, as opposed to a non-divine body for his 33 years.

 

[ViaCrucis]

But scripture is very clear, his divinity did change, it was lowered.

Scripture does not say that. Scripture does not say that His Deity changed or was lowered. It says that He--His Person--was made a little lower than the angels, and it says that He did not consider equality with God as something to be exploited, but that He emptied Himself, in the humiliation of His mortal humanity and sufferings, as a servant.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ewq1938]

Scripture does not say that. Scripture does not say that His Deity changed or was lowered.

Absolutely! How can deity even change or be less than divine? This is definitely a bad doctrine.

 

[ViaCrucis]

He doesn't have that's same body though...it was changed through the process of perfection also called glorification.

The body was changed, transformed--but it's still His body. The Apostle uses the analogy of a seed; there is obviously a difference between an acorn and an oak tree, but acorns and oak trees are still the same thing. You don't plant an acorn and get an apple tree. The identity of His body remained the same, but its glory changed, from corruptible to incorruptible. That's the whole point in talking about "glory" in 1 Corinthians 15,

"There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory. So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable. It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power."

It looks the same, has the same scars but is not composed of the same flesh that it originally had.

See above.

-CryptoLutheran