Can Christians lose there salvation?

[Ben johnson]

A fall from "Stedfastness" is not loss of Salvation. A fall from steadfastness is nothing but a loss of confidence.

Do you REALLY BELIEVE one can be UNSTEADFAST/FAITHLESS but still SAVED??? Then please tell me what salvation IS to you? How does "BORN-AGAIN" (especially Gal2:20) allow faithlessness?

First, we should all easily recognize that man will never be holy, blameless, spotless, without blemish, and without sin. Any of these qualities would have to be IMPUTED to man ONLY through the Blood of Jesus. However, man is commanded to be holy and without sin, so how can this be? The Christian's walk or walk In The Spirit is described many times as a fight or a run. Colossians 1:23 could easily say "Keep Looking Up" in this fight. The believer's foundation is not his own righteousness, rather the righteousness of Jesus Christ.

NEVER BE BLAMELESS/HOLY? Not true; in Christ we have become the righteousness of God. 2Cor5:21 See1Jn3:6-10; children of God are righteous, children of the devil are unrighteous---he states that is how we tell them apart...

The "Hope of the Gospel" spoken of in Colossians 1:23 is eternal life and happiness in and through Jesus Christ. The "Hope of the Gospel" spoken of in Colossians 1:23 is eternal life and happiness in and through Jesus Christ.

Nope, 1Tim1:1 says Jesus HIMSELF is our hope. Do you think Paul was uttering hyperbole in col1:23? If it wasn't a real warning, why did he waste words?

It should be obvious by now that Jesus Christ and HIS Blood are Holiness and Righteousness IMPUTED to his flock.

Just so!! But it's through our BELIEF!

 

[Ben johnson]

The gist of 2 John 1:8-9 is John writing to a lady and her children.

Metaphore--- the CHOSEN LADY is the church, the ChILDREN are the BELIEVERS; or do you believe John thought there was ONE WOMAN who was CHOSEN?

The subject of 2 John 1:8 is rewards for the good works of a believer, not Salvation. The loss spoken of is not a loss of Salvation, rather of rewards.

You have just declared that One who has not GOD, is still SAVED!
Do you believe that? Really?

Col3:24 HEAVEN is the "reward of the inheritance"

The subject of 2 John 1:9 is a contrast between the saved and the unsaved. The first portion of the verse regards the unsaved, and the second portion regards the saved.

Do you see what you have to do? To support "OSAS", you hafta "butcherknife" the passage, claiming that he changes subjects; the Jehovah's Witnesses do this very thing to Jn20:28 ---it's either THAT or ADMIT that Jesus is GOD! I submit that there is no reason to "butcherknife" verse9, except to suport a preconcieved OSAS; I submit that "WATCH YOURSELVES" and "DON'T GO TOO FAR" were said n the same breath and constitute ONE WARNING; I submit this verse mirrors exactly 1Tim4:16 and many others, INCLUDING Col1:23 & Heb3:14

QUESTION: Can you sucessfully contend that "GO TOO FAR" (go-on-ahead) "and not abide in Christ's teachings" (vs9), is not merely REPEATING verse 8, "lose what you have acomplished"?

 

[Ben johnson]

Jude 1:21 has nothing to do with OSAS or OSNAS. We already know that nothing can separate us from the love of God.

Think about this--- Rm 5:8 says "He loved us BEFORE we wee saved"; if 2Pet3:9 delares that "God has not DECREED anyone to perish, but MAKES ROOM for ALL to repent", do you think the unrepentant are separated from His love? Doesn't He love them exactly the same way He loved US, before WE repented?

 

[Ben johnson]

357, I hope that I do not offend you; your responses are common to those who believe in OSAS --- so I welcome the discussion. It seens to me, that to believe in OSAS one must believe that "fellowship with God or Jesus or the Spirit isn't necessary", or "Preseverence comes from GOD rathr than US", or one can be sinful/rebellious/unrepentant but STILL SAVED; in complete opposition to all of Scripture...

I hope we can together see the truth of Scripture...

 

[Ben johnson]

Can a child of God lose the seal of salvation? – NO

Where is your Scripture for this? The SEAL is the HOLY SPIRIT;according to Eph1:13, that seal is affixed on our BELIEF; do you think that Eph4:30 says "If you DO grieve Him, He will remain?

Can a child be in rebellion? – YES

Show me the verse that sayss that? And I will show you Heb10:26ff, 1Cor6:9ff, Gal5:19-21, 1Jn3:4-11, etc..

That is my hope that He who has begun a good work in us will perform it until the end.

Does He do it apart from our own faith? Please read 3 verses later (Philip1:9-11) and tell me if it doesn't sound very much like a prayer for the Philippians to continue in salvation?

That with my mind I serve the law of the Spirit and with my flesh the law of sin.

"Are we to contnue in sin that grace may abound? Never!! How shall we who have DIED to sin STILL LIVE IN IT?! Rom6

 

[nChrist]

Today at 02:43 AM Ben johnson said this in Post #319 

I've never understood the argument, "THIS or THAT letter is to the JEWISH PEOPLE (not us)"; are Jews held to a different standard of salvation? Nooooo, not according to Gal3:28. So how does this verse not indicate OSNAS? Do you think Paul is speakig of Israel as a PEOPLE? Does God ever save a PEOLE in SPITE of their individual beliefs? Is a Jew who does not believe in Jesus, SAVED? I don't think so. "They were cut off because of their unbelief"--- tell me how they didn't lose salvation? What about Gal5? "You WERE runing WELL; but NOW you are going BACK to the LAW-thing; you are SEVERED FROM CHRIST, you are FALLEN FROM GRACE."

This one is really fairly simple when you think about it. The Jews at the time of Christ were living under the law. As a result, those who rejected the Gospel of the Grace of God never received Salvation in the first place. How can you lose something you never had? Thus, you don't have "Once Saved" for the Jews who rejected the Gospel of God's Grace, you have "Never Saved". "Never Saved, Not Always Saved" is not the subject of our conversation. The same would be true of every portion of Scripture that refers to Jews under the law who rejected the Gospel of God's Grace. You can't lose salvation if you never had it.

Salvation is the core of the Gospel of God's Grace, not the law.

 

[Ben johnson]

This one is really fairly simple when you think about it. The Jews at the time of Christ were living under the law. As a result, those who rejected the Gospel of the Grace of God never received Salvation in the first place. How can you lose something you never had? Thus, you don't have "Once Saved" for the Jews who rejected the Gospel of God's Grace, you have "Never Saved". "Never Saved, Not Always Saved" is not the subject of our conversation. The same would be true of every portion of Scripture that refers to Jews under the law who rejected the Gospel of God's Grace. You can't lose salvation if you never had it.

Jesus came not to destroy the law, but to fulfill the law (Matt5:17). Before Jesus the Jews were saved under the law; now, Jesus is the new covenant (2Cor3).

Rom11 says, "the Jews were cut off because of unbelief; don't be arrogant, for YOU CAN BE CUT OFF TOO, if you do not continue in His kindness but fall into unbelief!" (saying that WE can be cut off for unbelief just as they were!) How does that NOT support OSNAS???

What about Gal5? Some Jews embraced grace, but began to return to "circumcision/law"; is there any way that, "SEVERED from Christ, FALLEN FROM GRACE" 5:4, does NOT mean "severed from Christ and fallen from grace"? Is there any way that "You WERE running well, who hindered you from obeying the truth?" 5:7 & "Now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you TURN BACK to (laws) to be enslaved again?" 4:9, is there any way that Gal3-5 is NOT "OSNAS"?

 

[eldermike]

PHP 3:2 Watch out for those dogs, those men who do evil, those mutilators of the flesh. 3 For it is we who are the circumcision, we who worship by the Spirit of God, who glory in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh-- 4 though I myself have reasons for such confidence.
If anyone else thinks he has reasons to put confidence in the flesh, I have more: 5 circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law, a Pharisee; 6 as for zeal, persecuting the church; as for legalistic righteousness, faultless.

PHP 3:7 But whatever was to my profit I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. 8 What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ--the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith. 10 I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead.

PHP 3:12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13 Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.

PHP 3:15 All of us who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you. 16 Only let us live up to what we have already attained.


Two points from this scripture:

Paul had the best resume of all time but it counted as nothing.

A mature view of salvation is that we press on to the prize because Jesus took hold of us.

Why did Paul say this?

Because, we can't press on when we are focused inward.
Jesus is your salvation, that's done, but you can't claim that prize without death first. So, Paul is trying to keep the teachers of the law from taking His chosen vessles and turning their thoughts and actions on saving themselves as if that can be done.

We see this in many churches, doubt upon doubt, worry about "me", focus on self. The saints need to grow up, the prize is promised, to claim it you must die or fly. So we are to press on, go past the law givers without notice and look for His purpose for you life.

PRESSING ON means, stop your worry and go find HIS lambs.

We are saved! I just don't want the prize today (Thank you Lord)

 

[nChrist]

Today at 12:43 PM eldermike said this in Post #328

We see this in many churches, doubt upon doubt, worry about "me", focus on self. The saints need to grow up, the prize is promised, to claim it you must die or fly. So we are to press on, go past the law givers without notice and look for His purpose for you life.

PRESSING ON means, stop your worry and go find HIS lambs.

We are saved! I just don't want the prize today (Thank you Lord)

Amen! This is a beautiful thought and truth. Self will never attain confidence or assurance, but Jesus can give us both. I like your description of "flying". Flying in HIS purpose and will feels good. Thanks for these beautiful thoughts.

 

[nChrist]

Brother Ben,

I'll reply to your other verses as soon as I can. It is already obvious to me that I won't change your mind about Eternal Salvation, and you certainly won't change my mind about Eternal Salvation. We are both saved and will see each other in Heaven.

Our doctrinal differences appear to be in the area of mixing Law and Grace. Maybe it would be more accurate to say how much or how little the two are mixed. We both have our own firm beliefs, and we are both saved. I believe that confidence and TOTAL ASSURANCE of Salvation is 100% Biblical. My confidence and assurance is in Jesus, not myself. My belief is not in self-righteousness or arrogance, rather in a Saviour who cannot fail or lie. OSAS is confidence in GOD, not of self. OSNAS casts doubts on God, not self. We obviously disagree and will continue to disagree, but I do respect you and your opinion.

 

[Outspoken]

"Heh heh heh! I could say the same thing!"

No, you can't because I realize and have said that the issue is unsolvable and that both sides have biblical backing, though I think the NonOSAS is much weaker.

 

[nChrist]

Yesterday at 04:21 AM Ben johnson said this in Post #324

357, I hope that I do not offend you; your responses are common to those who believe in OSAS --- so I welcome the discussion. It seens to me, that to believe in OSAS one must believe that "fellowship with God or Jesus or the Spirit isn't necessary", or "Preseverence comes from GOD rathr than US", or one can be sinful/rebellious/unrepentant but STILL SAVED; in complete opposition to all of Scripture...

I hope we can together see the truth of Scripture...

You really don't offend me, but you are completely inaccurate about what those who believe "Once Saved, Always Saved" believe. Stereotypes are usually not close to being accurate.

The stereotype of one believing in OSNAS would be self-righteous keepers of the law, confidence in self, and saving of self. This stereotype would probably be about as close as the stereotype you suggest for those who believe OSAS.

I already know that neither stereotype is close to being accurate. It is obvious that we both believe we see the truth of God's Holy Word. It's also obvious that neither of us will change our mind about Salvation. Regardless, we will see each other in heaven.

 

[eldermike]

Amen! This is a beautiful thought and truth. Self will never attain confidence or assurance, but Jesus can give us both. I like your description of "flying". Flying in HIS purpose and will feels good. Thanks for these beautiful thoughts.

Thanks!

I believe that when we really look at salvation we would come to discover that it was never for our good, what is good for us is a by-product of God's Glory. It's takes a humble heart to take "me" out of salvation but if you read John 17:1 you will see that Jesus took himself out of the work of the cross. He said the hour has come to reveal Your Glory through me.

It's the cross, it's not us. It's His Glory, not my good.

 

[nChrist]

Today at 08:56 PM eldermike said this in Post #333

It's the cross, it's not us. It's His Glory, not my good.

I think this says it all in a very precise manner. I give thanks, TO GOD ALL THE GLORY.

 

[Ben johnson]

Our doctrinal differences appear to be in the area of mixing Law and Grace.

I don’t think so; we both
agree on salvation by FAITH through GRACE, where law is not part of salvation (but we obey the law
BECAUSE we are saved --- He did not abolish the law but fulfilled it; we obey it not to be saved, but because we
ARE saved....)

So there is no MIX of “law” and “grace”...

I believe that confidence and TOTAL ASSURANCE of Salvation is 100% Biblical.

So do I; because
salvation is “IN CHRIST”, all of Him and none of me, I have complete and total assurance of salvation. John
affirms this in 1:5:11-13: ”He who HAS the Son has the life; I write this that you may KNOW you
have eternal life.”

We obviously disagree and will continue to disagree, but I do respect you and your opinion.

I also
respect each and every one of your opinions; and if we continue to disagree, I can be “at peace with that” (agreeing
to disagree); however, if I thought that no agreement was possible, I would desist in the debate...

 

[Ben johnson]

No, you can't because I realize and have said that the issue is unsolvable and that both sides have biblical backing

Both sides CONTEND to have Biblical backing; but are both sides really ingenuous? Consider the following
(using ”you” as meaning “YOU-WHO-BELIEVE-OSAS”) :

I say ”you WERE running WELL, who hindered you from obeying the truth? You who seek to again follow law, are SEVERED from CHRIST, you are FALLEN from GRACE” (Gal5) --- really means
”severed-from-Christ/fallen-from-grace”; you say “no it doesn’t REALLY mean severed/fallen”;
-OR- you say, “the RUNNING WELL doesn’t REALLY mean they were saved in the FIRST place”...

I say ”Now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you TURN BACK to (laws) to be enslaved again?" --- really means “YOU CAME TO KNOW GOD but then you TURNED BACK TO LAWS/SLAVERY”; you say “no it doesn’t really MEAN they KNEW God (in the saved sense, they only APPEARED to be running well, in SPITE of what Paul said!)”,
-OR- “it doesn’t really MEAN that they turned back to slavery again... (he ACTUALLY meant they never-were-NOT-slaves!)”

I say ”those TRULY ESCAPED, who were enticed by false teachers & false prophets and then really get entangled again in defilements and overcome, they REALLY KNEW God but TURNED AWAY from the holy commandment” 2Pet2:20-22 --- really means “they WERE escaped by the TRUE-REAL-SAVED-KNOWLEDGE of Jesus but FELL”; you say, “no---even though it is word-for-Greek-word-identical with those UNDENIABLY SAVED of chapter ONE, these were
NOT really-saved; the exact same Greek words don’t MEAN the SAME between the two adjacent chapters; here-it-means-only-APPEARED-to-have-escaped and he’s EXAGERATING about returning ‘CAUSE-THEY-NEVER-REALLY-LEFT-VOMIT/MIRE”.
-OR- you say, “they never really FELL, they were SAVED vile-disgusting-pigs-&-dogs...
-OR- you say “oh we can IGNORE Peter’s letters because they were not WRITTEN to us, but to JEWS or ANOTHER DISPENSATION or OTHER people!

Am I wrong in my perception of the “disingenuousness”?

 

[Ben johnson]

I say, ”take care, brethren, lest there be found in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God” (Heb3:12) --- really MEANS “Christian brethren CAN be deceived (as James1:14-16 says---”DO NOT BE DECEIVED MY BELOVED BRETHREN!”) to death/falling-away-from-God”;
YOU say “oh that’s not written to SAVED brethren” (?!),
-OR- you say “they may fall away from GOD but they will still be SAVED!”
(?!?!)

I say, ”We have become partakers in Christ IF we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end”,
and ”He has reconciled you in His fleshly body ...in order to present you before God holy and blameless IF INDEED YOU CONTINUE in the faith firmly established and steadfast and NOT BE MOVED AWAY from the HOPE of the GOSPEL”,
and ”be all the more diligent to make certain about your calling and election; he who LACKS these qualities is blind/short-sighted/forgotten-FORMER-PURIFICATION; in THIS way the GATES of HEAVEN will be provided”,
and ”pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching, persevere in these things; for as you do this you will SAVE YOURSELF and those who hear you”,
...I say all these (and MORE) truly convey man’s responsibility in abiding in salvation (which is ABIDING IN CHRIST);
...you say “oh no all that doesn’t really mean what it says, it’s just empty WORDS, hyperbole, windy advisories against that which CANNOT HAPPEN!” (If they KNEW it could not happen, why do you suppose they wasted writing all those words?) Oh you say, “it’s FATHERLY advice for RIGHTEOUS LIVING”; but if the righteous living is UNAVOIDABLE, if righteously-living is GIVEN, why warn at all???

I say, ”many deceivers have gone forth, watch yourselves that you do not lose what you’ve accomplished, for he-who-goes-too-far and does not abide in Christ’s teachings HAS NOT GOD” --- really is a warning;
you say “oh he changes SUBJECT so that the “watch yourselves” is more windy meaningless hyperbole empty-warning and the “GO TOO FAR” is for those who were ALWAYS too far (never-saved-in-the-FIRST-place!) (he’s EXAGERATING about the GOTOOFAR).

I could very much go on; I type these words fearful of offending you, the readers who believe “OSAS”; but I very sincerely ask you, ”does your position really sound sincere and ingenuous?” Do you really think both our positions are represented Scripturally, equally? Have I failed somehow in presenting these last several paragraphs?

PRESSING ON means, stop your worry and go find HIS lambs

I think a LITTLE worry is a good thing.
I don’t mean worrying about salvation --- Scripture is clear: ”he who HAS the Son has the LIFE; I write this that you may KNOW you have eternal life.” But if we are responsible in our ABIDING-IN-HIM, then just as Peter says in 2:1:11-13 we must be diligent about our calling and election! Perfectly reflected in
Heb10:36 (“For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise”).

...but you say we can IGNORE Hebrews, don’t you? Because it was written to JEWS, and somehow what was said to THEM doesn’t apply to US; their salvation is DIFFERENT than ours.

 

[Ben johnson]

We are saved!

Are you sure of that? That ALL OF US are saved? If someone believes there is such a thing as a
saved--fornicator/drunkard/robber/carouser, do you really think such a person has a grasp on what salvation IS? This is why I am still here engaged in argument (though prayerfully loving and gentle argument); because I am contending for the very nature of that salvation. The ESSENCE of our Gospel from Christ. How can it be less important?

I am forever worried about posting on message boards, lest I “engage in disputes factions and dissentions” (fruits of the flesh---Gal5). But I am buffeted in my conscience by verses such as Titus1:9 and Jude3:3, ”Holding fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, so that we will be able to both exhort with sound doctrine and refute those who contradict.” & “appealing to us to contend earnestly for the faith that was handed down to the saints.”

 

[eldermike]

Ben, my brother in Christ,

In ever case where Paul gives you doubt, He gives me encouragement. One of us is right.

Let us rest on the idea that knowing the mechanics of salvation will not save us, so let's discuss this in Heaven one day.

Eldermike

 

[Ben johnson]

Hi, Mike. I hope we agree that salvation is knowing Christ.

RE the discussion ---a couple posts earlier I quoted James, but didn’t comment. The passage is 1:14-16:

”Each one is tempted when he is carried away by his own lust. Then when lust is conceived, it births sin, and sin brings death. DO NOT BE DECEIVED, MY BELOVED BRETHREN.”

So how does this accommodate OSAS? Is it:

&#149he doesn’t really MEAN death, at least not spiritual death? (Sin does not cause spiritual death?)
&#149it’s mere empty hyperbole, written as meaningless warning because everyone (including James) KNEW that real-true-believers can NOT be deceived by sin to death?
&#149he’s warning US about the UNSAVED’S deception, so he doesn’t really MEAN ”brings death” because the never-SAVED have never LEFT death?
&#149there is some reason we can ignore James’ letter TOO?

Do any of these reasons sound honest?

Especially in CONTEXT, with verses like: ”Blessed is the one who perseveres under trial; for once he has PASSED the TEST, he will receive the crown of life, which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.”

Many people who believe OSAS assert that OUR perseverance comes from GOD; but here is James declaring that: testing of our faith produces endurance/steadfastness --- which produces maturity and completeness.

Which is the HONEST interpretation here? One of the FOUR cited above? Or is James, maybe, saying that WE can FALL?

This is the essence of salvation. The question of what Jesus meant in Jn15:4-6: ”Abide in Me, and I in you; anyone who does NOT abide in Me is cast away and cast into the fire”. Did He mean “those who have NEVER believed will be thrown away”? How can one who has NEVER ABIDED, be thrown away? Those who never were saved, have always ONLY been away!