Can Christians live a holy life?

[Bible Highlighter]

Ok, let me explain in further detail why we can't expound scripture and accomplish anything.

If the foundation of your salvation is wrong, all your doctrine will be wrong.

Jesus Christ crucified for the sins of the world is not doctrine. it is the foundation of the Church that doctrine is built on.

Salvation is the most important doctrine found in scripture. As I said, if you get it wrong, you will get everything else wrong with it.

My foundation for salvation is completely different that your foundation, therefore it is impossible for us to agree on 95% of scripture.

Well, I can say the same for you, but you are not explaining anything. Your way is unexplainable with the Bible by what you said so far. This sounds confusing. However, God is not the author of confusion.

 

[Charlie24]

I can say the same for you, but you are not explaining anything. Your way is unexplainable with the Bible by what you said so far. This sounds confusing. However, God is not the author of confusion.

What is it about my foundation of salvation you do not understand?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

What is it about my foundation of salvation you do not understand?

I also believe Jesus died for the sins of the world, but that does not mean everyone is saved (as I am sure you would agree). We need to have a proper faith to access the grace of God. Your view of grace and faith makes room for sin. But that is not what grace teaches.

Titus 2:11-12 KJB
[11] “For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
[12] Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;”

 

[Charlie24]

I also believe Jesus died for the sins of the world, but that does not mean everyone is saved (as I am sure you would agree). We need to have a proper faith to access the grace of God. Your view of grace and faith makes room for sin. But that is not what grace teaches.

Titus 2:11-12 KJB
[11] “For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
[12] Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;”

Under the New Covenant how do we live this way now that Christ has paid the price for our sins and the Old Covenant is has faded as Paul said?

We walk in the Spirit by faith, period!

Walking in the Spirit is denying our ability to do anything for God on our own.

Walking after the flesh is using our ability to do of our own, which God will not accept.

No one will see the Kingdom of God if he is not lead by the Spirit, he must deny his abilities to do and surrender completely to Christ in total faith.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Under the New Covenant how do we live this way now that Christ has paid the price for our sins and the Old Covenant is has faded as Paul said?

We walk in the Spirit by faith, period!

Walking in the Spirit is denying our ability to do anything for God on our own.

Walking after the flesh is using our ability to do of our own, which God will not accept.

No one will see the Kingdom of God if he is not lead by the Spirit, he must deny his abilities to do and surrender completely to Christ in total faith.

Jesus said come to me.
But all good a believer does is by the power of God working in them. Jesus said we can do nothing without Him. I never argued otherwise that we can do good without God.
However, the Lord does not force us to be a certain way.

But your argument is that believers can sin and still be saved. But God cannot agree with sin. Sin is not something that is within the will of God, so He cannot condone a believer’s thinking they can sin and still be saved. Therefore, your belief is unbiblical. It is why you are not in favor of holy living as a part of the salvation equation.

 

[Bruce Leiter]

Can Christians live a holy life?

Note:

I am not asking this question because I doubt that a believer can live a holy life. I do believe that a believer can live holy by God's power (Thereby giving Him the glory); My question is asked so as to see what Christians today say about this kind of question.

My answer is "yes" and "no." Why? "Yes" because Jesus died on the cross, God sees me as perfectly holy in principle because of Jesus, not me or my actions. "No" because Jesus rose from the dead to give us his power to overcome the sinful nature that we still have. God in the Bible says, "Be holy because I am holy!" That's the main idea of the Book of Leviticus; the external national forms of all those laws have disappeared in Jesus, but the principles have remained for the New Testament's international church.

Therefore, God commands us to grow in our holiness, a lifelong task in which the Holy Spirit enables us to gain progress through our prayers and his Word.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

My answer is "yes" and "no." Why? "Yes" because Jesus died on the cross, God sees me as perfectly holy in principle because of Jesus, not me or my actions. "No" because Jesus rose from the dead to give us his power to overcome the sinful nature that we still have. God in the Bible says, "Be holy because I am holy!" That's the main idea of the Book of Leviticus; the external national forms of all those laws have disappeared in Jesus, but the principles have remained for the New Testament's international church.

Therefore, God commands us to grow in our holiness, a lifelong task in which the Holy Spirit enables us to gain progress through our prayers and his Word.

This is totally unbiblical. Nowhere does the Bible teach that you are made holy no matter how you live. We are made holy in the sense that when we seek forgiveness with the Lord, we are set apart for Gods purposes and that we are forgiven of past sins, and we are changed spiritually. Faith continues into the Sanctification Process to live a holy life. In fact, a much ignored imputation of Christ’s sacrifice can be found in 1 John 1:7. If we walk in the light as He is in the light, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin. Are you walking in the light? Do you even know what walking in the light means?

 

[Charlie24]

Jesus said come to me.
But all good a believer does is by the power of God working in them. Jesus said we can do nothing without Him. I never argued otherwise that we can do good without God.
However, the Lord does not force us to be a certain way.

But your argument is that believers can sin and still be saved. But God cannot agree with sin. Sin is not something that is within the will of God, so He cannot condone a believer’s thinking they can sin and still be saved. Thereby your is unbiblical.

I don't serve a God that has given me His free gift of righteousness by my faith in Christ only to take it away when I make a mistake.

The Lord God is merciful and does not take my salvation when I DO something wrong, because I wasn't saved by my DOING, I was saved by grace through faith.

If I choose to do something wrong and know I'm doing wrong, I know from experience what is coming, I'm going to get a whopping from God the same way my dad did when I did something wrong. But His punishment is usually embarrassing and puts me right back in line. Then I think, God I'm sorry, why did I do that.

 

[chad kincham]

Peter in context refers to not fashioning ourselves to the former lusts (sin) and Peter mentions how we must be holy in all manner of conversation. This is the context of 1 Peter 1:16 when Peter quotes about how we are to be holy in conduct for God is holy in conduct.

And the word ‘conversation’ means lifestyle, in its original meaning, and doesn’t mean br Holy in your oral communication, but be Holy in your living.

 

[chad kincham]

I don't serve a God that has given me His free gift of righteousness by my faith in Christ only to take it away when I make a mistake.

The Lord God is merciful and does not take my salvation when I DO something wrong, because I wasn't saved by my DOING, I was saved by grace through faith.

If I choose to do something wrong and know I'm doing wrong, I know from experience what is coming, I'm going to get a whopping from God the same way my dad did when I did something wrong. But His punishment is usually embarrassing and puts me right back in line. Then I think, God I'm sorry, why did I do that.

Looks like you’ve only been exposed to hyper-grace, OSAS teaching, because you are missing a huge part of how salvation - and continuing in Christ - works.

To be saved, we must repent of our sins - as part of our conversion so that our sins are forgiven (Acts 3:19), but we can’t pre-repent of future sins - thus scripture is clear that only OLD sins and PAST sins are forgiven at salvation - not future sins:


2Pe 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was PURGED from his OLD SINS.


Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of SINS THAT ARE PAST through the forbearance of God;


So the hyper-grace doctrine which claims all sins: past, present, and future sins, are forgiven at salvation, is wrong.


Future sins must be repented of as we commit them, to be forgiven.


That’s why the apostle wrote:


1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.


The apostle included himself, indicating he’s talking to believers, and not to the unconverted, as further shown by the fact he had just written THIS, before verse 9:


1Jn 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

1Jn 1:7 But IF we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.


Scripture makes clear that after we have been saved, there is a continuing conflict between our wanting to walk in the flesh, (that wants us to live in sin)- and our desire to walk after the Holy Spirit that now dwells in us - and warns that choosing to live in sins (works of the flesh), will keep us out of heaven:


Gal 5:16 ThisI say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.


Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.


Gal 5:18 But IF ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.


Gal 5:19 Now the WORKS OF THE FLESH are manifest, which are these;Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,


Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,


Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell YOU again, as I have also told youin time past, that they which DO such things shall NOT inherit the kingdom of God.


Paul warns us over and over, that if we choose to walk after the flesh, we will die spiritually - but if we choose to walk after the spirit, we will have everlasting life:


Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.


Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded isDEATH, but to be spiritually minded isLIFE and peace.


Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is ENMITY against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.


Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.


Verse 8:7 above, having a carnal mind is ENMITY against God, meaning you actually become Gods ENEMY.


Will God let His enemies into heaven?


Jas 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is ENMITY with God? whosoever therefore will be a FRIEND OF THE WORLD is the ENEMY of God.


Note that hyper-grace OSAS teaching says your sins don’t count, because all your sins - past, present and future sins - have all been forgiven - so you can regularly commit sins such as sexual sins, and God won’t hold you accountable - yet the verse above says sexual sins and being worldly, makes you Gods ENEMY.


We are expected and required as believers, to live the most sinless life we can, and to repent when we know we’ve sinned.


Scripture clearly shows that continuing to remain in Christ is conditional on us 1) continuing to walk in the light, as He is in the light, and 2) continue to walk after the spirit, instead of after the flesh.


In the two verses below, I put in parentheses the conditional part of these scriptures that are always left out by hyper-grace, OSAS teachers.


1Jn 1:7 (But IF we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another), and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.


The blood of Jesus cleansing the believer is conditional on their choosing to continue to walk in the light, as He is in the light.


Next:

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, (who walk NOT AFTER THE FLESH, , but after the Spirit).


Having no condemnation, and being in Christ, is conditional upon walking after the Spirit, and not after the flesh.


And Paul warns us against being deceived about living in sin as a believer, when he wrote:


Gal 6:7 Be Not DECEIVED ; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man SOWETH,that shall he also REAP.


Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; BUT he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting


You reap everlasting life only if you sow to the spirit (walk after the Spirit, Romans 8:1, above, but reap spiritual death if you sow to your flesh.


When we do occasionally sin, we must confess it, for God to forgive it. 1 John 1:9.


The lies of hyper grace are twofold: you don’t need to ever repent after salvation when you sin; and you can’t lose salvation.


This makes grace a license to sin, since sin has no eternal penalty.


Thus if you want a mistress on the side, you can have one, and regularly commit adultery - or if you’re a drunkard you can get drunk every day - you can live a sinful lifestyle with impunity.


I personally know people that are living in sin, and use OSAS as their sinning license, and they get angry if you tell them that Paul warned the brethren in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 that living in the sin of drunkenness or adultery, etc, will keep them out of heaven.


In that passage, Paul warns some of the believers that they are defrauding their brethren, (which is stealing, being a thief) then warns them that stealing, and other sins, will keep them from heaven:


1Co 6:8 Nay, ye do wrong, and DEFRAUD and that your brethren.


1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? BE NOT DECEIVED: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,


1Co 6:10 Nor THIEVES, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.


Another warning by Paul, to the saints of God, about living a sinful lifestyle as a child of God:


Eph 5:1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;


Eph 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh SAINTS.


Eph 5:4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.


Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath ANY inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.


Eph 5:6 Let no man DECEIVE you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the WRATH of God upon the children of disobedience.


Eph 5:7 Be not YE therefore partakers WITH them.

We have a daily choice as believers, to choose between walking in the light, after the Spirit - or walking after the flesh - and their are eternal consequences for choosing to live a sinful lifestyle.

 

[Charlie24]

Looks like you’ve only been exposed to hyper-grace, OSAS teaching, because you are missing a huge part of how salvation - and continuing in Christ - works.

To be saved, we must repent of our sins - as part of our conversion so that our sins are forgiven (Acts 3:19), but we can’t pre-repent of future sins - thus scripture is clear that only OLD sins and PAST sins are forgiven at salvation - not future sins:


2Pe 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was PURGED from his OLD SINS.


Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to bea propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of SINS THAT ARE PAST through the forbearance of God;


So the hyper-grace doctrine which claims all sins: past, present, and future sins, are forgiven at salvation, is wrong.


Future sins must be repented of as we commit them, to be forgiven.


That’s why the apostle wrote:


1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us oursins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.


The apostle included himself, indicating he’s talking to believers, and not to the unconverted, as further shown by the fact he had just written THIS, before verse 9:


1Jn 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

1Jn 1:7 But IF we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.


Scripture makes clear that after we have been saved, there is a continuing conflict between our wanting to walk in the flesh, (that wants us to live in sin)- and our desire to walk after the Holy Spirit that now dwells in us - and warns that choosing to live in sins (works of the flesh), will keep us out of heaven:


Gal 5:16 ThisI say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.


Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.


Gal 5:18 But IF ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.


Gal 5:19 Now the WORKS OF THE FLESH are manifest, which are these;Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,


Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,


Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell YOU again, as I have also told youin time past, that they which DO such things shall NOT inherit the kingdom of God.


Paul warns us over and over, that if we choose to walk after the flesh, we will die spiritually - but if we choose to walk after the spirit, we will have everlasting life:


Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.


Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded isDEATH, but to be spiritually minded isLIFE and peace.


Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind isENMITY against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.


Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.


Verse 8:7 above, having a carnal mind is ENMITY against God, meaning you actually become Gods ENEMY.


Will God let His enemies into heaven?


Jas 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is ENMITY with God? whosoever therefore will be a FRIEND OF THE WORLD is the ENEMY of God.


Note that hyper-grace OSAS teaching says your sins don’t count, because all your sins - past, present and future sins - have all been forgiven - so you can regularly commit sins such as sexual sins, and God won’t hold you accountable - yet the verse above says sexual sins and being worldly, makes you Gods ENEMY.


We are expected and required as believers, to live the most sinless life we can, and to repent when we know we’ve sinned.


Scripture clearly shows that continuing to remain in Christ is conditional on us 1) continuing to walk in the light, as He is in the light, and 2) continue to walk after the spirit, instead of after the flesh.


In the two verses below, I put in parentheses the conditional part of these scriptures that are always left out by hyper-grace, OSAS teachers.


1Jn 1:7 (But IF we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another), and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.


The blood of Jesus cleansing the believer is conditional on their choosing to continue to walk in the light, as He is in the light.


Next:

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, (who walk NOT AFTER THE FLESH, , but after the Spirit).


Having no condemnation, and being in Christ, is conditional upon walking after the Spirit, and not after the flesh.


And Paul warns us against being deceived about living in sin as a believer, when he wrote:


Gal 6:7 Be Not DECEIVED ; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man SOWETH,that shall he also REAP.


Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; BUT he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting


You reap everlasting life only if you sow to the spirit (walk after the Spirit, Romans 8:1, above, but reap spiritual death if you sow to your flesh.


When we do occasionally sin, we must confess it, for God to forgive it. 1 John 1:9.


The lies of hyper grace are twofold: you don’t need to ever repent after salvation when you sin; and you can’t lose salvation.


This makes grace a license to sin, since sin has no eternal penalty.


Thus if you want a mistress on the side, you can have one, and regularly commit adultery - or if you’re a drunkard you can get drunk every day - you can live a sinful lifestyle with impunity.


I personally know people that are living in sin, and use OSAS as their sinning license, and they get angry if you tell them that Paul warned the brethren in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 that living in the sin of drunkenness or adultery, etc, will keep them out of heaven.


In that passage, Paul warns some of the believers that they are defrauding their brethren, (which is stealing, being a thief) then warns them that stealing, and other sins, will keep them from heaven:


1Co 6:8 Nay, ye do wrong, and DEFRAUD and that yourbrethren.


1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? BE NOT DECEIVED: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,


1Co 6:10 Nor THIEVES, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.


Another warning by Paul, to the saints of God, about living a sinful lifestyle as a child of God:


Eph 5:1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;


Eph 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh SAINTS.


Eph 5:4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.


Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath ANY inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.


Eph 5:6 Let no man DECEIVE you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the WRATH of God upon the children of disobedience.


Eph 5:7 Be not YE therefore partakers WITH them.

You're barking up the wrong tree pal. I'm not an advocate of OSAS because it's not true.

 

[chad kincham]

I don't serve a God that has given me His free gift of righteousness by my faith in Christ only to take it away when I make a mistake.

The Lord God is merciful and does not take my salvation when I DO something wrong, because I wasn't saved by my DOING, I was saved by grace through faith.

If I choose to do something wrong and know I'm doing wrong, I know from experience what is coming, I'm going to get a whopping from God the same way my dad did when I did something wrong. But His punishment is usually embarrassing and puts me right back in line. Then I think, God I'm sorry, why did I do that.

Looks like you’ve only been exposed to hyper-grace, OSAS teaching, because you are missing a huge part of how salvation works.

 

[Charlie24]

Looks like you’ve only been exposed to hyper-grace, OSAS teaching, because you are missing a huge part of how salvation works.

I guess so. I think you are the 17th person on this site that has the only way of salvation.

 

[Pathfinder627]

I guess so. I think you are the 17th person on this site that has the only way of salvation.

I'm actually surprised there aren't more posting like yourself. In the "real world", I run across more Baptists. I'm a Methodist, so we do indeed teach much about sanctification/holiness, but it's interesting that the poll here reflects more people along those lines.

 

[Charlie24]

I'm actually surprised there aren't more posting like yourself. In the "real world", I run across more Baptists. I'm a Methodist, so we do indeed teach much about sanctification/holiness, but it's interesting that the poll here reflects more people along those lines.

There's plenty more around here that believe the same, they just don't want the argument. Outspoken people you know.

 

[chad kincham]

I guess so. I think you are the 17th person on this site that has the only way of salvation.

The ones I’ve read, all post similar scriptures from the Bible, all in agreement that you can’t choose to live in sin, and remain in Christ, as a believer.

OSAS is bogus doctrine.

 

[Charlie24]

The ones I’ve read, all post similar scriptures from the Bible, all in agreement that you can’t choose to live in sin, and remain in Christ, as a believer.

OSAS is bogus doctrine.

I agree OSAS is not exactly true, depending on the sense one uses the term.

There are backsliders that are saved, but they pay a price for it.

You're not saved one day and lost the next if you sin!

 

[Blade]

Do we not put on the new man which after God is created in righteousness and true "holiness'?

So how are you looking at this? Through the eyes of flesh or spirit? In the flesh no can't happen. Has to be the new man.. separated to God. I believe its a choice we make. As Christ said.. keeping His word. Doing as God commanded.

Seems you left the op and when things like this get said "I have provided plenty of Scripture verses that demolish a sin and still be saved type belief or Belief Alone-ism.". Your own words. Would seem you backup what you personally believe with His word. Its the "I have" do you see? Thanks.. this train went off the tracks fast.

 

[chad kincham]

I agree OSAS is not exactly true, depending on the sense one uses the term.

There are backsliders that are saved, but they pay a price for it.

You're not saved one day and lost the next if you sin!

1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous.

1Jn 3:8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.

1Jn 3:9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God.

1Jn 3:10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

 

[Charlie24]

1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous.

1Jn 3:8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.

1Jn 3:9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God.

1Jn 3:10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

If one continues to practice sin and does not repent, then comes the chastisement of God, which is proof one belongs to God, Heb. 12:6-8.

If the chastisement does not work, yes, you will be cut off. Only God knows at what point that takes place.

If this happens it is because faith in Christ no longer exists.