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Can Christianity survive without the Pope?

Can Christianity survive without the Pope today

  • Sure It can!

  • No It cannot!

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JacktheCatholic

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We both know that the world 'catholic'' does not mean then what it does now. What it meant when he wrote that was universal, there was no such thing as what we now know as the catholic church when this was written.

I am sure when "Christian" was first coined in Antioch it did not mean what it does today. So what is your point?
 
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JacktheCatholic

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What "Catholic" Means



The Greek roots of the term "Catholic" mean "according to (kata-) the whole (holos)," or more colloquially, "universal." At the beginning of the second century, we find in the letters of Ignatius the first surviving use of the term "Catholic" in reference to the Church. At that time, or shortly thereafter, it was used to refer to a single, visible communion, separate from others.

The term "Catholic" is in the Apostles’, Nicene, and Athanasian creeds, and many Protestants, claiming the term for themselves, give it a meaning that is unsupported historically, ignoring the term’s use at the time the creeds were written.

Early Church historian J. N. D. Kelly, a Protestant, writes: "As regards ‘Catholic,’ its original meaning was 'universal' or 'general.' . . . in the latter half of the second century at latest, we find it conveying the suggestion that the Catholic is the true Church as distinct from heretical congregations (cf., e.g., Muratorian Canon). . . . What these early Fathers were envisaging was almost always the empirical, visible society; they had little or no inkling of the distinction which was later to become important between a visible and an invisible Church" (Early Christian Doctrines, 190–1).

Thus people who recite the creeds mentally inserting another meaning for "Catholic" are reinterpreting them according to a modern preference, much as a liberal biblical scholar does with Scripture texts offensive to contemporary sensibilities.

Included in the quotes below are extracts from the first creeds to use the term "Catholic"; so that the term can be seen it its historical context, which is supplied by the other quotations. It is from this broader context that the meaning of the term in the creeds is established, not by one’s own notion of what the term once meant or of what it ought to mean.


Ignatius of Antioch


"Let no one do anything of concern to the Church without the bishop. Let that be considered a valid Eucharist which is celebrated by the bishop or by one whom he ordains [i.e., a presbyter]. Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church" (Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 [A.D. 110]).


The Martyrdom of Polycarp


"And of the elect, he was one indeed, the wonderful martyr Polycarp, who in our days was an apostolic and prophetic teacher, bishop of the Catholic Church in Smyrna. For every word which came forth from his mouth was fulfilled and will be fulfilled" (Martyrdom of Polycarp 16:2 [A.D. 155]).


The Muratorian Canon


"Besides these [letters of Paul] there is one to Philemon, and one to Titus, and two to Timothy, in affection and love, but nevertheless regarded as holy in the Catholic Church, in the ordering of churchly discipline. There is also one [letter] to the Laodiceans and another to the Alexandrians, forged under the name of Paul, in regard to the heresy of Marcion, and there are several others which cannot be received by the Church, for it is not suitable that gall be mixed with honey. The epistle of Jude, indeed, and the two ascribed to John are received by the Catholic Church (Muratorian fragment [A.D. 177]).


Tertullian


"Where was [the heretic] Marcion, that shipmaster of Pontus, the zealous student of Stoicism? Where was Valentinus, the disciple of Platonism? For it is evident that those men lived not so long ago—in the reign of Antonius for the most part—and that they at first were believers in the doctrine of the Catholic Church, in the church of Rome under the episcopate of the blessed Eleutherius, until on account of their ever restless curiosity, with which they even infected the brethren, they were more than once expelled" (Demurrer Against the Heretics 30 [A.D. 200]).


Cyprian of Carthage


"They alone have remained outside [the Church] who, were they within, would have to be ejected.
. . . There [in John 6:68–69] speaks Peter, upon whom the Church would be built, teaching in the name of the Church and showing that even if a stubborn and proud multitude withdraws because it does not wish to obey, yet the Church does not withdraw from Christ. The people joined to the priest, and the flock clinging to their shepherd in the Church. You ought to know, then, that the bishop is in the Church and the Church in the bishops; and if someone is not with the bishop, he is not in the Church. They vainly flatter themselves who creep up, not having peace with the priest of God, believing that they are secretly in communion with certain individuals. For the Church, which is one and catholic, is not split or divided, but is indeed united and joined by the cement of priests who adhere to one another" (Letters 66[67]:8 [A.D. 253]).


Council of Nicaea I


"But those who say: ‘There was [a time] when he [the Son] was not,’ and ‘before he was born, he was not,’ and ‘because he was made from non-existing matter, he is either of another substance or essence,’ and those who call ‘God the Son of God changeable and mutable,’ these the Catholic Church anathematizes" (Appendix to the Creed of Nicaea [A.D. 325]).

"Concerning those who call themselves Cathari [Novatians], that is, ‘the Clean,’ if at any time they come to the Catholic Church, it has been decided by the holy and great council that, provided they receive the imposition of hands, they remain among the clergy. However, because they are accepting and following the doctrines of the catholic and apostolic Church, it is fitting that they acknowledge this in writing before all; that is, both that they communicate with the twice married and with those who have lapsed during a persecution" (Canon 8).

...

"Concerning the Paulianists who take refuge with the Catholic Church, a decree has been published that they should be fully baptized. If, however, any of these in times past have been in the clerical order, if indeed they have appeared spotless and above reproach, after being baptized, let them be ordained by the bishop of the Catholic Church" (Canon 9).


Cyril of Jerusalem


"[The Church] is called catholic, then, because it extends over the whole world, from end to end of the earth, and because it teaches universally and infallibly each and every doctrine which must come to the knowledge of men, concerning things visible and invisible, heavenly and earthly, and because it brings every race of men into subjection to godliness, governors and governed, learned and unlearned, and because it universally treats and heals every class of sins, those committed with the soul and those with the body, and it possesses within itself every conceivable form of virtue, in deeds and in words and in the spiritual gifts of every description" (Catechetical Lectures 18:23 [A.D. 350]).

http://www.catholic.com/library/What_Catholic_Means.asp
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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"[The Church] is called catholic, then, because it extends over the whole world, from end to end of the earth, and because it teaches universally and infallibly each and every doctrine which must come to the knowledge of men, concerning things visible and invisible, heavenly and earthly, and because it brings every race of men into subjection to godliness, governors and governed, learned and unlearned, and because it universally treats and heals every class of sins, those committed with the soul and those with the body, and it possesses within itself every conceivable form of virtue, in deeds and in words and in the spiritual gifts of every description" (Catechetical Lectures 18:23 [A.D. 350]).
Hi there. Prove the Pope and Roman Catholic church teaches infallibly.

Jeremiah 7:34 And I cause to cease from cities of Y@huwdah, and from streets of Y@ruwshalaim voice of elation, and voice of rejoicing, voice of bridegroom, and voice of bride, that to desolation the Land shall become.

Reve 18:23 and light of a lamp shall not no be appearing in thee still; and Voice of bridegroom and of bride not no should be being heard in thee still; that the merchants of thee were the great ones/grandees of the land, that in the sorcery of thee were deceived all the Nations,
 
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JacktheCatholic

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Hi there. Prove the Pope and Roman Catholic church teaches infallibly.

The author wrote that in 350 AD, I highly doubt he is going to be able to answer your question. Besides he would need to have an account here at CF.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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The author wrote that in 350 AD, I highly doubt he is going to be able to answer your question. Besides he would need to have an account here at CF.
Yeah, that would make it slightly difficult for me to debate him on that. :D ;)
 
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onwingsaseagles

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We both know that the world 'catholic'' does not mean then what it does now. What it meant when he wrote that was universal, there was no such thing as what we now know as the catholic church when this was written.

I am sure when "Christian" was first coined in Antioch it did not mean what it does today. So what is your point?
The point is obvious when this statement was made what we know a catholicism didn't even exist, so for you to try a say that the statement was referring to catholicism is simply false.

Once again catholicism is a religion not Christianity, A true Christian is anyone with a real relationship with Jesus Christ, not someone who belongs to the religion of catholicism.
 
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Albion

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I am sure when "Christian" was first coined in Antioch it did not mean what it does today. So what is your point?

On the contrary, eveyone but you does know that when "Christian" was first used, it meant just what it does today. But "Catholic" certainly did not refer to any particular denomination, yours or any other.
 
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Heber

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Catholicism is a religion nothing more. True Christianity is about having a real relationship with Jesus Christ, not about religion.

There could be a catholic Christian, but catholicism itself is not synonymous with Christianity.

I take your point - I was just asking to see what your motives were in saying that.
 
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Heber

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The term catholic is NOT the same as Catholic - never has been and never will be in Church terms. One means universal the other is a type or form of Church government. It is clear that Kefa was never a Catholic nor was he catholic! Yeshua never had in mind the Church as we have had it for the best part of 2000 years - his idea was simply a gathering of all people (ie catholic): Jews and Gentile who would meet as one congegation to worship him. Yeshua's word would have been Kehilla (sometimes written with an 'h' at the end). He never, ever, said to Kefa that he would build his Church on this Rock! Using the wrong language folk!

'Christian' is a Greek word that translates Ha Mashiach (the anointed one), or as it is often shown: Messiah or Messianic. It would, therefore have had a capital 'C' as Mashiach or Messiah have capital 'M's AND it commences with the name applied to Yeshua by the Greeks - Christ.
 
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JacktheCatholic

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The point is obvious when this statement was made what we know a catholicism didn't even exist, so for you to try a say that the statement was referring to catholicism is simply false.

Once again catholicism is a religion not Christianity, A true Christian is anyone with a real relationship with Jesus Christ, not someone who belongs to the religion of catholicism.

I have my opinion and you have yours. The difference is that I have proivided support to my opinion which should give me more credibility and you less. I do not think this should be about who yells the loudest but rather who brings more to the table. I am ahead, what say you?
 
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JacktheCatholic

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On the contrary, eveyone but you does know that when "Christian" was first used, it meant just what it does today. But "Catholic" certainly did not refer to any particular denomination, yours or any other.


It seems that you are making a claim based on nothing more than your personal opinion. Bring something to the table please or simply listen. :)
 
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JacktheCatholic

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The term catholic is NOT the same as Catholic - never has been and never will be in Church terms. One means universal the other is a type or form of Church government. It is clear that Kefa was never a Catholic nor was he catholic! Yeshua never had in mind the Church as we have had it for the best part of 2000 years - his idea was simply a gathering of all people (ie catholic): Jews and Gentile who would meet as one congegation to worship him. Yeshua's word would have been Kehilla (sometimes written with an 'h' at the end). He never, ever, said to Kefa that he would build his Church on this Rock! Using the wrong language folk!

'Christian' is a Greek word that translates Ha Mashiach (the anointed one), or as it is often shown: Messiah or Messianic. It would, therefore have had a capital 'C' as Mashiach or Messiah have capital 'M's AND it commences with the name applied to Yeshua by the Greeks - Christ.


I know we can argue that Ignatius was using a lower case 'c' but that still does not negate that the early church came to be called Catholic.

As to Christian I think it safe to say that the Apsotles considered themselves Jews or at least children of Israel. I think it possible that Christian was an insult at first and not at all like today.

Note:
“The word Catholic (katholikos from katholou -- throughout the whole, i.e., universal) occurs in the Greek classics, e.g., in Aristotle and Polybius, and was freely used by the earlier Christian writers in what we may call its primitive and non-ecclesiastical sense. Thus we meet such phrases as the”the catholic resurrection” (Justin Martyr), "the catholic goodness of God" (Tertullian), "the four catholic winds" (Irenaeus), where we should now speak of "the general resurrection", "the absolute or universal goodness of God", "the four principal winds", etc. The word seems in this usage to be opposed to merikos (partial) or idios (particular), and one familiar example of this conception still survives in the ancient phrase "Catholic Epistles" as applied to those of St. Peter, St. Jude, etc., which were so called as being addressed not to particular local communities, but to the Church at large.” - New Advent
 
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katholikos

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..."Catholic" certainly did not refer to any particular denomination, yours or any other.

And it still doesn't, because the Catholic Church is not a denomination. We are the Church founded by Christ, from which your "denominations" broke away
 
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Heber

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JC - I have. The fact that you cannot get out of your high chair to reach it and understand it is another issue altogether!

The Catholic Church subsumed the name 'Catholic' into its own use because, at the time it was the catholic church - the universal church. It was not something Yeshua started, nor Kefa, as such; they started a kehilla(h) which I suggest you look up before struggling further with your restraints :)

In fact, when Kefa was told by Yeshua to 'feed my sheep etc', Kefa gave the wrong answer each time - so much for him being the foundation of the Catholic church!
 
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JacktheCatholic

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JC - I have. The fact that you cannot get out of your high chair to reach it and understand it is another issue altogether!

The Catholic Church subsumed the name 'Catholic' into its own use because, at the time it was the catholic church - the universal church. It was not something Yeshua started, nor Kefa, as such; they started a kehilla(h) which I suggest you look up before struggling further with your restraints :)

In fact, when Kefa was told by Yeshua to 'feed my sheep etc', Kefa gave the wrong answer each time - so much for him being the foundation of the Catholic church!

I am sorry that you see me as sitting above you. It is not my intention. I apologize.

As to your Catholic answer, I think that the title was something that developed from the 1st century so that by the 2nd century it was commonly used to name the Church as a whole.

Now the Kefa argument is not consistant with our ECFs and it is more of a modern interpretation to oppose RCC. I find many are more interested in opposing the RCC then they are with having the truth.
 
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Heber

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I am sorry that you see me as sitting above you. It is not my intention. I apologize.

As to your Catholic answer, I think that the title was something that developed from the 1st century so that by the 2nd century it was commonly used to name the Church as a whole.

Thank you for your apology. I can accept your C1 or 2 origin of the word Catholic as applied to the then universal church. However, the catholic (small 'c') is still in use, though often only in church circles. It has a similar meaning to the relatively modern word 'eclectic'.

Re Kefa - the exchange between Y'shua and Kefa is recorded in the Bible. Kefa was asked by Yeshua if he (Kefa) loved Yeshua, to which Kefa replied using a word signifiying brotherly love, the common love of one human for another, not the sort of love Yeshua was speaking of - agape love, a love that means a willingness to die for another.

Perhaps the RCC gets a bashing, as do others as well (don't hog the sympathy!) because of its percieved arrogance in saying (in a variety of ways) that it, and it alone, is the custodian of the truth that is of G_d. It simply doesn't accept that G_d may have spoken to others, though it was very quick to take what was revealed to the Jews and make that it's own. It was certainly NOT the first to be given the full revelation of G_d in Yeshua. That distinction goes to the Jews since what is called 'Christmas' was to them (think about it!) -that is why we then have Epiphany twelve days (12 tribes?) later when the so called kings or wise men came to Yeshua on behalf of the Gentile world and he was revealed to them. See Romans 1 and 2 for the order in whch G_d does things -first to the Jews, then to the Gentiles..
 
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JacktheCatholic

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I have studied that. I know Jesus asked Peter three times if he loved him. The first two times, as you say, he answered brotherly love and the third he replied that Jesus knows all.

Peter was truly sorry for rejecting Jesus three times and knew that his love was not as strong as he thought it was. Don't men do this often, claim to be willing to die for a loved one. The reality is far different in most cases, the person find it hard to sacrifice their life and tries to find a way to save both and sometimes just their own. Human Nature? More like concupisense.

So Peter was being honest and sorry for what happened and Jesus knew Peter's heart. Peter was forgiven his sins and was made the Shephard of Jesus' flock. Instead of trying to find ways to change 2000 years of good teaching from God youn should be seeing how wonderful our God is. He forgave Peter and placed him as the Shephard of His flock. God knows things we do not, so trust in Him.
 
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