Can Calvinism reconcile God ordaining Adam to sin, and still allow Adam to have a free will?

[Dr. Jack]

The purpose of "Compatiblism" is reconcile the "decree of God" for Adam to sin in the Garden of Eden, with Adam having a will, and choosing to sin, or not sin.

Chapter III of the WCF states:

"I. God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass;[1] yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin,[2] nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.[3]"

But making such a statement without clear demonstration on just how this actually occurs, is not sufficient.

The WCF also states:

"VII. The rest of mankind God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of his own will, whereby he extends or withholds mercy, as he pleases, for the glory of his sovereign power over his creatures, to pass by; and to ordain them to dishonor and wrath for their sin, to the praise of his glorious justice.[17]

VIII. The doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care,[18]that men, attending the will of God revealed in his Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election.[19] So shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God;[20] and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the Gospel.[21]"

We see above the terms, "according to the unsearchable counsel of his own will", and "The doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care" as though any questioning of this "mystery" brings forth the very wrath, and judgment of God.

It is not enough to simply state a doctrinal position and then hide under the supposed umbrella of the questioning the sovereignty of God to escape the responsibility of defining ones position.

Each of us must be able to stand on sound doctrine, and be ready to give an answer when we enter the arena of apologetics.

My challenge to those who subscribe to Reformed Theology is to explain how Adam was able to chose sin, (or not to sin), if he was already decreed by God to sin.

 

[-57]

The purpose of "Compatiblism" is reconcile the "decree of God" for Adam to sin in the Garden of Eden, with Adam having a will, and choosing to sin, or not sin.

Chapter III of the WCF states:

"I. God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass;[1] yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin,[2] nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.[3]"

But making such a statement without clear demonstration on just how this actually occurs, is not sufficient.

The WCF also states:

"VII. The rest of mankind God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of his own will, whereby he extends or withholds mercy, as he pleases, for the glory of his sovereign power over his creatures, to pass by; and to ordain them to dishonor and wrath for their sin, to the praise of his glorious justice.[17]

VIII. The doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care,[18]that men, attending the will of God revealed in his Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election.[19] So shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God;[20] and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the Gospel.[21]"

We see above the terms, "according to the unsearchable counsel of his own will", and "The doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care" as though any questioning of this "mystery" brings forth the very wrath, and judgment of God.

It is not enough to simply state a doctrinal position and then hide under the supposed umbrella of the questioning the sovereignty of God to escape the responsibility of defining ones position.

Each of us must be able to stand on sound doctrine, and be ready to give an answer when we enter the arena of apologetics.

My challenge to those who subscribe to Reformed Theology is to explain how Adam was able to chose sin, (or not to sin), if he was already decreed by God to sin.

Has our future already happened for God? I say yes.

 

[Dr. Jack]

Has our future already happened for God? I say yes.

How exactly, does this apply to the OP?

 

[-57]

How exactly, does this apply to the OP?

The OP started with this. "The purpose of "Compatiblism" is reconcile the "decree of God" for Adam to sin in the Garden of Eden, with Adam having a will, and choosing to sin, or not sin."

Before God even said "let there be" He knew the beginning to the end. Now the topic gets pretty deep pretty fast but I don't think it was a decree fom God. As in "Adam, you must sin".

I think any creature made by God can't be perfect in every way. That is only divinity can be perfect in every way. Man was created nearly perfect. Man not being 100% perfect as well as being created with a free-will or should we say the ability to choose....choose to be disobedient. With a little persuasion of Eve from the Serpent then disobedience by Adam. God knew this would happen.

Did God decree it to happen? If God knew this would happen equals a decree then the answer is yes.

I don't know if I'm right or wrong but I believe God wants to demonstrate all aspects of who He is to mankind. Patience, love, grace, judge, etc. Perhaps in order for God to demonstrate grace, love, compassion, mercy He allowed Adam to fall so God could become a man and die on the cross.

 

[Dr. Jack]

The OP started with this. "The purpose of "Compatiblism" is reconcile the "decree of God" for Adam to sin in the Garden of Eden, with Adam having a will, and choosing to sin, or not sin."

Before God even said "let there be" He knew the beginning to the end. Now the topic gets pretty deep pretty fast but I don't think it was a decree fom God. As in "Adam, you must sin".

I think any creature made by God can't be perfect in every way. That is only divinity can be perfect in every way. Man was created nearly perfect. Man not being 100% perfect as well as being created with a free-will or should we say the ability to choose....choose to be disobedient. With a little persuasion of Eve from the Serpent then disobedience by Adam. God knew this would happen.

Did God decree it to happen? If God knew this would happen equals a decree then the answer is yes.

I don't know if I'm right or wrong but I believe God wants to demonstrate all aspects of who He is to mankind. Patience, love, grace, judge, etc. Perhaps in order for God to demonstrate grace, love, compassion, mercy He allowed Adam to fall so God could become a man and die on the cross.

The point of the question is that Reformed Theology teaches that the sin of Adam was 1) decreed by God; and 2) needed in order to have Jesus Christ as the Redeemer.

This however is incorrect, as well as unScriptural.

Did God KNOW Adam would sin? Yes, of course He did, He is omniscient. But those who subscribe to Reformed Theology, cannot grasp the idea that God could indeterminately know things, and therefore also know of His plan to redeem mankind.

The Reformed Theology position is that sin must enter for Christ to be the Redeemer; hence, the sin of Adam was decreed. However, if that is true (which I believe it isn't), then Adam could not have sinned of his own volition, it had to be a predetermined decision by God.

 

[-57]

The point of the question is that Reformed Theology teaches that the sin of Adam was 1) decreed by God; and 2) needed in order to have Jesus Christ as the Redeemer.

This however is incorrect, as well as unScriptural.

Did God KNOW Adam would sin? Yes, of course He did, He is omniscient. But those who subscribe to Reformed Theology, cannot grasp the idea that God could indeterminately know things, and therefore also know of His plan to redeem mankind.

The Reformed Theology position is that sin must enter for Christ to be the Redeemer; hence, the sin of Adam was decreed. However, if that is true (which I believe it isn't), then Adam could not have sinned of his own volition, it had to be a predetermined decision by God.

I don't see it that way. Adam didn't have to sin. If Adam didn't sin there would be no need for a redeemer. It just so happened Adam did sin.

I don't think "God could indeterminately know things" and be omniscient.

 

[Dr. Jack]

I don't see it that way. Adam didn't have to sin. If Adam didn't sin there would be no need for a redeemer. It just so happened Adam did sin.

I don't think "God could indeterminately know things" and be omniscient.

Do you understand the meaning of "indeterminate" knowledge?

 

[-57]

Do you understand the meaning of "indeterminate" knowledge?

Indeterminate means not exactly known.
You seem to be suggesting an omniscient God, kinda knows.

 

[Dr. Jack]

Indeterminate means not exactly known.
You seem to be suggesting an omniscient God, kinda knows.

Wrong "indeterminate".

determine:
verb

• : to officially decide (something) especially because of evidence or facts :to establish (something) exactly or withauthority
• : to be the cause of or reason for (something)
• : to learn or find out (something) by getting information

Hence, "indeterminate" is used to say it is NOT the cause of.

God had foreknowledge that Adam would sin; but was not the cause of that sin.

E.g. I can see an airplane falling from the sky and therefore know it will crash BEFORE it hits the ground; yet not be the cause of the crash.

 

[-57]

Wrong "indeterminate".

determine:
verb

• : to officially decide (something) especially because of evidence or facts :to establish (something) exactly or withauthority
• : to be the cause of or reason for (something)
• : to learn or find out (something) by getting information

Hence, "indeterminate" is used to say it is NOT the cause of.

God had foreknowledge that Adam would sin; but was not the cause of that sin.

E.g. I can see an airplane falling from the sky and therefore know it will crash BEFORE it hits the ground; yet not be the cause of the crash.

"God had foreknowledge that Adam would sin; but was not the cause of that sin."
That I agree with.

"indeterminate". I was simply using the definition the computer used when I clicked on the word.

 

[Dr. Jack]

A

"God had foreknowledge that Adam would sin; but was not the cause of that sin."
That I agree with.

"indeterminate". I was simply using the definition the computer used when I clicked on the word.

According to Calvinism, the reason Adam sinned is because God "determined" Adam to sin.

This is known as "determinism".

"Determinism is the philosophical belief that all events are determined completely by previously existing causes. Deterministic theories throughout the history of philosophy have sprung from diverse and sometimes overlapping motives and considerations. The opposite of determinism is some kind of indeterminism. Wikipedia"

 

[-57]

A

According to Calvinism, the reason Adam sinned is because God "determined" Adam to sin.

This is known as "determinism".

"Determinism is the philosophical belief that all events are determined completely by previously existing causes. Deterministic theories throughout the history of philosophy have sprung from diverse and sometimes overlapping motives and considerations. The opposite of determinism is some kind of indeterminism. Wikipedia"

According to Dr. R.C. Sproul....
It is also vital to see predestination in light of the Fall. All Christians agree that Godís decree of predestination was made before the Fall. Some argue that God first predestinated some people to salvation and others to damnation and then decreed the Fall to make sure that some folks would perish. Sometimes this dreadful view is even attributed to Calvinism. Such an idea was repugnant to Calvin and is equally repugnant to all orthodox Calvinists. The notion is sometimes called ìhyper-Calvinism.î But even that is an insult. This view has nothing to do with Calvinism. Rather than hyper-Calvinism, it is anti-Calvinism.

Calvinism, along with other views of predestination, teaches that Godís decree was made both before the Fall, and in light of the Fall. Why is this important? Because the Calvinistic view of predestination always accents the gracious character of Godís redemption. When God predestines people to salvation he is predestinating people to be saved whom he knows really need to be saved. They need to be saved because they are sinners in Adam, not because he forced them to be sinners. Calvinism sees Adam sinning by his own free will, not by divine coercion.

To be sure, God knew before the Fall that there would most certainly be a Fall and he took action to redeem some. He ordained the Fall in the sense that he chose to allow it, but not in the sense that he chose to coerce it. His predestinating grace is gracious precisely because he chooses to save people whom he knows in advance will be spiritually dead.

 

[Dr. Jack]

According to Dr. R.C. Sproul....
It is also vital to see predestination in light of the Fall. All Christians agree that Godís decree of predestination was made before the Fall. Some argue that God first predestinated some people to salvation and others to damnation and then decreed the Fall to make sure that some folks would perish. Sometimes this dreadful view is even attributed to Calvinism. Such an idea was repugnant to Calvin and is equally repugnant to all orthodox Calvinists. The notion is sometimes called ìhyper-Calvinism.î But even that is an insult. This view has nothing to do with Calvinism. Rather than hyper-Calvinism, it is anti-Calvinism.

Calvinism, along with other views of predestination, teaches that Godís decree was made both before the Fall, and in light of the Fall. Why is this important? Because the Calvinistic view of predestination always accents the gracious character of Godís redemption. When God predestines people to salvation he is predestinating people to be saved whom he knows really need to be saved. They need to be saved because they are sinners in Adam, not because he forced them to be sinners. Calvinism sees Adam sinning by his own free will, not by divine coercion.

To be sure, God knew before the Fall that there would most certainly be a Fall and he took action to redeem some. He ordained the Fall in the sense that he chose to allow it, but not in the sense that he chose to coerce it. His predestinating grace is gracious precisely because he chooses to save people whom he knows in advance will be spiritually dead.

It states above ...

According to Dr. R.C. Sproul....
It is also vital to see predestination in light of the Fall. All Christians agree that Godís decree of predestination was made before the Fall.

If you examine this thread, there is no doubt that Calvinism teaches that God decreed the fall of Adam.

The Biblical use of the word "decree" is that a decree "rule" or "law", or event of some sort, (such as when Ceaser Augustus decreed that the world should be taxed) ...

2:1 And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be taxed. Luke

Hence, the cause of the event (everything involved with the world being taxed), was the decree of Ceaser. Yes, there were "second causes" such as the local government following, and enforcing said decree; but all under the authority of the primary, and first cause ... Ceaser.

Secondary causes cannot operate outside of the authority of first causes.

The late Sproul (and Calvinism) like to pass the culpability of sin to second causes, saying that, because the second causes were "free agents", the first cause has no culpability, (even though the events chosen are decreed by the first cause; (again, being the cause which carries all authority).

It is my position, as well as the position of many others, that there is a major logical fallacy in this theological view.

Simply; First cause (#1) cannot decree the free will choice of Second cause (#2) to be "A"; and still assert that Second cause (#2) is a free agent.

If Second cause (#2) is an actual "free agent", the First cause (#1) cannot decree, ordain, determine, or predestinate the choice that Second cause (#2 ... a "free agent") will make.

In other words, a free will agent must have the ability to choose between options, without the choice being decided prior to the choice.

(It would be like saying, Choose whatever flavor of icecream you want, but if you choose other than vanilla; I'll break your arm.

The person will voluntarily choose vanilla ... to keep their arm from being broken.)

In the thread I gave examples of why this is ethically wrong, and would contradict the holiness of God.

 

[-57]

It states above ...



If you examine this thread, there is no doubt that Calvinism teaches that God decreed the fall of Adam.

The Biblical use of the word "decree" is that a decree "rule" or "law", or event of some sort, (such as when Ceaser Augustus decreed that the world should be taxed) ...

2:1 And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be taxed. Luke

Hence, the cause of the event (everything involved with the world being taxed), was the decree of Ceaser. Yes, there were "second causes" such as the local government following, and enforcing said decree; but all under the authority of the primary, and first cause ... Ceaser.

Secondary causes cannot operate outside of the authority of first causes.

The late Sproul (and Calvinism) like to pass the culpability of sin to second causes, saying that, because the second causes were "free agents", the first cause has no culpability, (even though the events chosen are decreed by the first cause; (again, being the cause which carries all authority).

It is my position, as well as the position of many others, that there is a major logical fallacy in this theological view.

Simply; First cause (#1) cannot decree the free will choice of Second cause (#2) to be "A"; and still assert that Second cause (#2) is a free agent.

If Second cause (#2) is an actual "free agent", the First cause (#1) cannot decree, ordain, determine, or predestinate the choice that Second cause (#2 ... a "free agent") will make.

In other words, a free will agent must have the ability to choose between options, without the choice being decided prior to the choice.

(It would be like saying, Choose whatever flavor of icecream you want, but if you choose other than vanilla; I'll break your arm.

The person will voluntarily choose vanilla ... to keep their arm from being broken.)

In the thread I gave examples of why this is ethically wrong, and would contradict the holiness of God.

I never said God decreed the fall.

I said God new Adam would fall.

 

[Dr. Jack]

I never said God decreed the fall.

I said God new Adam would fall.

May I ask the purpose of presenting an argument from R.C. Sproul?

 

[rnmomof7]

The point of the question is that Reformed Theology teaches that the sin of Adam was 1) decreed by God; and 2) needed in order to have Jesus Christ as the Redeemer.

This however is incorrect, as well as unScriptural.

Did God KNOW Adam would sin? Yes, of course He did, He is omniscient. But those who subscribe to Reformed Theology, cannot grasp the idea that God could indeterminately know things, and therefore also know of His plan to redeem mankind.

The Reformed Theology position is that sin must enter for Christ to be the Redeemer; hence, the sin of Adam was decreed. However, if that is true (which I believe it isn't), then Adam could not have sinned of his own volition, it had to be a predetermined decision by God.

God is he first cause of all things.. and that would include not only the fall of Adam , but also the fall of Lucifer .

We need to look at the circumstances and the purpose .

God could have chosen to destroy Lucifer and his minion if their rebellion was not His design .. instead He cast them to the earth, where he would be the instrument of God to tempt Eve / Adam ..

So one might ask, why would the God of the universe desire the fall??

All things that occur redound to the glory of God.. God was glorified by the fall..

Without the fall man would never fully know the character and attributes of God..

 

[Dr. Jack]

God is he first cause of all things.. and that would include not only the fall of Adam , but also the fall of Lucifer .

We need to look at the circumstances and the purpose .

God could have chosen to destroy Lucifer and his minion if their rebellion was not His design .. instead He cast them to the earth, where he would be the instrument of God to tempt Eve / Adam ..

1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. James

God DID know that Satan would tempt man; but God's placing Satan in the Garden of Eden was for the purpose of providing an alternate choice for Adam, NOT for the predetermined purpose of "leading" Adam to a "predetermined" choice.

So one might ask, why would the God of the universe desire the fall??

This question presupposes that "the God of the universe desire[d] the fall" [of Adam].

All things that occur redound to the glory of God.. God was glorified by the fall..

Without the fall man would never fully know the character and attributes of God..

However, man can know the exact same thing, ... without God predetermining the fall.

 

[sdowney717]

I never said God decreed the fall.

I said God new Adam would fall.

He was the lamb slain from the foundation of the world, and Peter said he was predestined.

 

[sdowney717]

Revelation 13:8 All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the Lamb’s book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.

AMPC And all the inhabitants of the earth will fall down in adoration and pay him homage, everyone whose name has not been recorded in the Book of Life of the Lamb that was slain [in sacrifice] from the foundation of the world.

BRG And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

CEB All who live on earth worshipped it, all whose names hadn’t been written—from the time the earth was made—in the scroll of life of the Lamb who was slain.

CJB Everyone living on earth will worship it except those whose names are written in the Book of Life belonging to the Lamb slaughtered before the world was founded.

 

[SkyWriting]

The purpose of "Compatiblism" is reconcile the "decree of God" for Adam to sin in the Garden of Eden, with Adam having a will, and choosing to sin, or not sin.

Chapter III of the WCF states:

"I. God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass;[1] yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin,[2] nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.[3]"

But making such a statement without clear demonstration on just how this actually occurs, is not sufficient.

The WCF also states:

"VII. The rest of mankind God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of his own will, whereby he extends or withholds mercy, as he pleases, for the glory of his sovereign power over his creatures, to pass by; and to ordain them to dishonor and wrath for their sin, to the praise of his glorious justice.[17]

VIII. The doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care,[18]that men, attending the will of God revealed in his Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election.[19] So shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God;[20] and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the Gospel.[21]"

We see above the terms, "according to the unsearchable counsel of his own will", and "The doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care" as though any questioning of this "mystery" brings forth the very wrath, and judgment of God.

It is not enough to simply state a doctrinal position and then hide under the supposed umbrella of the questioning the sovereignty of God to escape the responsibility of defining ones position.

Each of us must be able to stand on sound doctrine, and be ready to give an answer when we enter the arena of apologetics.

My challenge to those who subscribe to Reformed Theology is to explain how Adam was able to chose sin, (or not to sin), if he was already decreed by God to sin.

It's not possible for man to reconcile the two.