Can anyone answer a few questions?

[heron]

I know that words can often be understood differently from person to person.

Especially words like "faith" and "work," which have many definitions.

 

[Mary_Magdalene]

*mod hat on*

hey guys!

please remember there is no debating in this area. Thanks!

 

[PhilosopherD]

I was brought up a christian, and until recently, believed I was one. I just have a few questions, if anyone can answer them I would greatly appreciate it.

1. How can a god who loves us send anyone to hell? For any of the parents here, could you send your child to a place like that for saying they did not believe in you?

2. Assuming that you believe god is all powerful and that he loves all people (I'm not sure what different groups believe) How could he let some people go through what they do? Ex: The Holocaust.

3. Why are we here? Are we simply enjoyment for god? Does he enjoy watching us suffer?

4. Why did jesus need to die for our sins? How does death satisfy gods anger?

Thanks to anyone who responds, I've had trouble finding answers to these questions as of late, it seems most christians I know simply follow chirstianity because its what their family believes.

Thanks again.

You need to read Christan philosophers in order to get 'meaty' answers to those questions. Trying to get 'theodicy' from typical people, no matter if they be Christian, will not produce too much in the way of answers for you.

Basically, though, think of it this way. (And this has nothing to do with real physics, it is just an analogy) All of us human beings are like little sparks from a REALLY Big Fire. The Fire releases the sparks so that they have independent existence. The Fire will one day reclaim ALL that it has released. Anything that is not still fire will not be able to rejoin with the Fire, but will be burned up.

My point is that God is the creator. He knows why He made, and for what purpose. We come from Him. He, as the creator, has every right to expect that what He made functions as he intended. When we rejoin Him, He shouldn't have to put up with any chaotic backtalk for all eternity, but be able to fellowship with us and we with Him without any misgivings or mental anguish.

 

[Bick]

I was brought up a christian, and until recently, believed I was one. I just have a few questions, if anyone can answer them I would greatly appreciate it.

1. How can a god who loves us send anyone to hell? For any of the parents here, could you send your child to a place like that for saying they did not believe in you?

2. Assuming that you believe god is all powerful and that he loves all people (I'm not sure what different groups believe) How could he let some people go through what they do? Ex: The Holocaust.

3. Why are we here? Are we simply enjoyment for god? Does he enjoy watching us suffer?

4. Why did jesus need to die for our sins? How does death satisfy gods anger?

Thanks to anyone who responds, I've had trouble finding answers to these questions as of late, it seems most christians I know simply follow chirstianity because its what their family believes.

Thanks again.

Answers:
1) The sad thing is, the orthodox view of a burning place called "hell", was conceived by the church fathers in the time of St. Argustine. It came about because they believed man had a "soul" that lived on even after a person died. It had to have eyes, feeling, a brain, thus, a body like unto our own....imagine! And this doctrine is accepted by the mass of Christianity, even though the Scriptures deny this!

Gen. 2:7 "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." AV.
NOTE: a separate soul was not joined to a prepared body.

So, man is a living being, a living soul having a mind, a conscience, feelings through all his senses, etc.

Many times man is called a "soul" in the Bible: see Gen.12:5, 46:26; Ex.12:4; Acts 2:41, 43, 7:14; etc.

Man's soul is said to die or be dead:
Num. 23:10 "Let me (my soul) die the death of the righteous.
Josh. 10:28 "And that day Joshua took Makkedah and smote it with the edge of the sword and the king thereof...and all the souls thereof." See also Josh, 10:30, 32,35,37,39; 11:11 etc.

And one we've all heard: "The soul that sinneth it shall die." Ezek. 18:4.

THEREFORE: when man dies, he goes to the unseen, the grave until he is resurrected.

Sin, of course is a serious thing. Death and sin entered into the world of mankind through Adam. And, it took the sacrifice of God's Son on our behalf to purchase our salvation.

But, what do we read is the payment, the wages for sin? Is it eternal torment in the flames of hell? I haven't found such a verse. Yet, I have found what Paul tells us in Rom. 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death"

It's true, in the AV and many other versions, the compilers used "hell" for three different words in the Greek manuscripts: geenna, hades and tartaroo.

Geenna: our Lord referred to it 11 times in the Gospels.
In his day it was a dump site outside the SW wall of Jerusalem where the city offal and waste was dumped. Trash was continually dumped and fires were kept burning to purify the air. The fires and smoke were such that it became associated with the judgment of God.

To be judged worthy of death and being cast into geenna, was the worst kind of sentence. For the bodies of criminals were cast there and what the flames didn't consume, the worms (maggots) did.
The verses are: Matt. 5:22, 29, 30; 10:28; 18:9; 23:15, 33; Mark 9:43, 45, 47; and Luke 12:5.

Must quit now, getting late.

 

[heron]

The insight on separation is interesting --I'll bet some people take that too far and think of their soul as having a different sense of responsibility... or their soul with live on without them, as if it's a psuedo-persona.

 

[Digit]

I was brought up a christian, and until recently, believed I was one. I just have a few questions, if anyone can answer them I would greatly appreciate it.

This is my take on what you have posted.

1. How can a god who loves us send anyone to hell? For any of the parents here, could you send your child to a place like that for saying they did not believe in you?

God does love us, but he is righteous. He cannot let a sin go unpunished. No matter how much he loves us, just like no matter how much a parent loves a child, they will punish them for doing wrong. God has perfect standards. We are to BE perfect humans in his eyes. Perfect men and perfect women, yet we are sinners, we are evil and fallen and wretched. Ever since the Fall of Man in the Bible, where Adam was expelled from Eden for disobeying God. We may not seem that way to each other, but those are mortal standards, compared to God's perfect standards, what he demands of us, we are far from perfect and He will punish us.

2. Assuming that you believe god is all powerful and that he loves all people (I'm not sure what different groups believe) How could he let some people go through what they do? Ex: The Holocaust.

I like to think this is because of free will. I mean, if God wanted us to be perfect, there is no doubt in my mind that He could simply make us perfect, yet He wanted us to have choice. To have free will. How do you make someone love you, when they have free will? You can't. They have to willingly turn to you. God will not interfere with our affairs because that would take away our free will, our choices. I don't know what our purpose here on earth is for sure, but I like to think it is for God to mould our souls into that which He considers complete, so that when we arrive in Heaven, he strips the sin from us, removes the evil and has the perfect creations He designed, yet with unique traits, skills, and abilities. Life is not a dress-rehersal, it's the real thing. He is preparing us for our life in Heaven.

3. Why are we here? Are we simply enjoyment for god? Does he enjoy watching us suffer?

I don't believe he is taking some dark pleasure from watching our strife. I think I may have answered this above, but just to reiterate I think (me personally) that we are here to mould our souls into unique creatures for our life in Heaven with God. Who knows what He has planned for us, but I have faith that it is worth all the strife. There is a saying, that the only Hell a Christian will know, will be on earth. And the only Heaven a non-believer will know, will be on earth.

4. Why did jesus need to die for our sins? How does death satisfy gods anger?

God created us, and we sinned. Throughout the Bible there have been some very drastic punishments for our sin. But we continued to sin. Eventually it got to a stage where God demanded a price, I don't know what it was, but I can only imagine it was terrible and meant a serious toll for man. However because He loves us so, He offered to pay the price for us. To come down to earth as Jesus Christ, to teach us and then die the ultimate painful death, of crucifiction for us, to take away that price for our sins. Imagine it like this: You speed. You get caught. The judge fines you $50000.00. You cannot pay that price. But the judge is a close friend of yours, so he steps down from the bench and comes over to you, and writes you a cheque for $50000.00 and hands it to you. The law has been carried out. God has punished you, He fined you $50000.00, but you couldn't pay the fine, and He loves you, so you came down, and paid it for us.

I hope that helps, if anyone thinks I have this wrong please, don't hesitate to correct me because I am quite new to this myself.

All the best, and God bless!

Digit

 

[Aceybee]

I suppose we don't as much send ourselves to hell in the sense of we don't of our own free will up and march ourselves down there, that would be silly. The sense in which we send ourselves, is that God has left the decision up to us. I know other people believe different things, and I'm not trying to argue my point here, but my belief on hell is that it is not everlasting torture.. its effects are everlasting, but I really cant see God carefully roasting us, turning us so theres no part that doesn't feel totally miserable.. He simply can't take them to heaven while they still reek of sin and refuse to let him wash them so they can come in and be clean. The only option left is to destroy them along with sin when he finally gets rid of it. Like I said, I know its not believed everywhere, but there are other interpretations of the story to consider
The other thing I'd like to point out, is that none of the plan of salvation was to rescue us from an angry God. If that were the case, why on earth would we want to spend eternity with a God we were always trying to appease.. And I got a hunch that if he were an overly angry God, we'd have been zapped or died some horrible death a long time ago, because we still keep doing stupid things. The reason Jesus had to come to this earth and die is purely because of our choice. We can't accuse him of not knowing how we feel being stuck on a miserable planet.. But if he were to step in, he would be being unfair in that he isn't allowing us free will.. however on the other hand, Satan is not allowed to compromise our right to make the decision either- it has to be us. The right to choose whether we wanted to live Gods way or Satans way has to be uninfluenced either way.. If God stepped in everytime something went wrong, there would be chaos here. Theres really only 1 option for him if he's playing fair, and in this case, it was God coming down and paying the cost for our sins.. so that if we wanted to come his way, there was a way for us to do that while still maintaining order. In the meantime, he came and directly proved to us that we don't have to live satans way, despite what he wants us to believe, that God is real and loves us (and revealed his character and heart for humans in Jesus) and that he knows what its like to be in a horrible world that treats you unfairly.

 

[MikeMcK]

///

 

[AEG]

I still cannot accept why we all deserve eternal suffering. A few wrongs do not equal eternal pain. Maybe we do not deserve to be in heaven, but I dont think we deserve hell ethier. Thank you again for all the replies.

 

[Bluewing]

Greetings AEG,

"1. I still do not understand how good people can be condemmed to hell for believing different things. That is not deserving in my opinon."

I'm in the process of writing an essay on this question just for the fun of it in my spare time (that kind of makes me look a little sad, doesn't it? lol). At the moment, my essay is about two pages long with about an additional half-page to add to finish one aspect of why people go to hell and then I still have to cover the other aspect of why people go to hell and then I still have the most important part of the essay: the solution to the problem to do. So in reality, I've only finished about 50% of it.

[FONT=&quot]In order to answer your question, the first thing that we must examine is why, according to the Bible, people are sent to hell in the first place. The Bible tells us that “the soul that sins shall surely die” (see Ezekiel 18:4) and that “the wages of sin is death” (see Romans 6:23). Now, wages are something that you are paid for work rendered. That is, you earn your wages. What the Apostle Paul is essentially saying here is that because we have all repeatedly sinned against and offended a holy God, we have all earned the penalty of death, which is eternal torment and punishment in a place called hell.

You brought up a good question about why are good people sent to hell?

I've always wanted to use this quote and here is my chance:

"Good is a point-of-view" ~ Chancellor Palpatine from Star Wars Episode III Revenge Of The Sith.

[/FONT] The Bible, I guess that I don't even need to tell you this, paints a different picture about humanity - not that we are "basically good" rather that we are "basically sinful and evil". Well, the Apostle John tells us that “if we say we have no sin, we are only fooling ourselves and refusing to accept the truth” (see 1 John 1:8-9). The Apostle Paul also addresses this issue when he quoted Scripture which said that “No one is good – not even one … All have turned away from God; all have gone wrong. No one does good, not even one” (see Romans 3:10-12). In today’s relative-based society, it is easy to point to figures of evil, such as Stalin and Hitler, and say that they are definitely sinners who absolutely deserve death for their crimes, but when it comes to our own personal sins, we can down-size or downplay them relative to such people.

To show you that you are a sinner, God provided the Old Testament Law and the Ten Commandments such that we could see just how far we fall short of God’s glorious standard. It is our “mirror” and “teacher” to show us just how sinful we are and how deserving of God’s wrath we in reality are and just how much we need God’s grace.

Consider the following questions: Have you ever used the LORD’s name in vain? Have you ever committed murder? What about adultery? You may think, “No,” but remember that Jesus tells us that even if we are angry with our brother (or sister) that we have committed murder against them in our heart (see Matthew 5:22) and that if we look or think with lust about someone that we have committed adultery with him or her in our heart (see Matthew 5:28). These are only three out of the Ten Commandments! We can keep on going into lying, stealing, and so on.

[FONT=&quot]When we compare our lifestyle and our actions against the Ten Commandments, we can see just how far we fall of God’s glorious standard as Paul echoed when he wrote that “for all have sinned; all fall short of God’s glorious standard” (see Romans 3:23). Now, we’ve seen the phrase “God’s glorious standards” several times in this article, so what are they? Just what kind of obedience is God asking for? In a word: perfection. That is, the complete obedience to the entire Law every minute of every hour of every day of every year until you die.

We can continue this argument by looking at the punishment of death upon Adam and Eve (and consequently all of humanity) and what this tells us about sin and eternal suffering. Now, when Adam rebelled against God, in effect he was saying that he wanted life without God. He wanted to decide truth for himself, independent of God. God had to judge Adam’s sin with death. He had already warned Adam that if he sinned, he would "surely die". After Adam’s Fall, he and all his descendants forfeited the right to live. After all, God is the author of life. Death is the natural penalty of choosing life without God, the giver of life.

Now, applying this same principle to the rejection of Jesus as Lord and Saviour, people are in fact clinging to their sins and telling God that they want life without Him, that they want to decide for themselves truth and how they are to live, independent of God. (Ham, K. & Sarfati, J.). Just as death is the natural penalty of choosing life without God, the giver of life, so too is eternal death the natural penalty or consequence of choosing eternal life without the eternal life giving source, which is God.

In fact, it is people who send themselves to hell through their rejection of God. That is it. People are not condemned to hell for what they have done or what-have-you, they are condemned by wanting life without Him ... even "good" people can fall into this category.

He is simply giving them what they ask for, although He doesn't want them to spend eternity apart from Him, it is what they asked for.

God has been gracious in giving us a way out, but ultimately the choice is the person's to make. If they would rather live their own life without God then God will sadly grant them what they ask for, eternal life without Him.

I hope that this makes sense; please feel free to comment or ask further questions that we may be able to help you with. I will most likely respond to the other two questions in a different post as this one is quite long.

Sources:
Ham, K. & Sarfati, J. Why Is There Death And Suffering? Available on-line at Answers In Genesis' website.
[/FONT]

 

[Bluewing]

I feel like I should add that I don't like it any more than God or you do. I don't like the idea that my friends and the people who I care about, and even those who I don't know will end up in such a place.

But they do have a choice in where they end up and it is only up to them. God will not force Himself upon people. You see, the only reason why God is holding off judging mankind right now and unravelling His wrath against sin is His love for you and His love for my friends. He is giving them time to repent and turn to Him, He longs for them to choose life and come to them; but it is their choice as they have free-will.

 

[didot]

I remember the night I met Christ in my apartment in September 1992. Right before this experience, I thought, "and so the suffering in this world proves there is not a God. Then, Bling! Jesus "stopped in".

 

[Bluewing]

Hey AEG,

4. Why did jesus need to die for our sins? How does death satisfy gods anger?

This is a great question and I can give you the information straight from an article (Why Is There Death And Suffering? by Ken Ham and Jonathan Sarfati of Answers In Genesis) I referenced in my previous post:

Adam’s sin left mankind in a terrible predicament. Even though our bodies die, we are made in the image of God, and thus we have souls that are immortal. Our conscious being is going to live forever. Unless God intervened, Adam’s sin meant that we would spend an eternity of suffering and separation from Him.

The only way for us to restore our life with God is if we are able to come to Him with the penalty paid for our sin. Leviticus 17:11 helps us to understand how this can be done. It says, ‘The life of the flesh is in the blood.’ Blood represents life. The New Testament explains that ‘without the shedding of blood there is no remission [of sins]’ (Hebrews 9:22).

God makes it clear that, because we are creatures of flesh and blood, the only way to pay the penalty for our sin is if blood is shed to take away our sin. [Remember in my last post how I talked about the intention behind sin: that when we sin we are telling God that we want life without Him and the natural alternative of living without the life-giving source is death? This is what the article is referring to. Death is the penalty or consequence of sin.].

In the Garden of Eden, God killed an animal and clothed Adam and Eve as a picture of a covering for our sin. A blood sacrifice was needed because of our sin. The Israelites sacrificed animals over and over again; however, because Adam’s blood does not flow in animals, animal blood, though it could temporarily cover our sin, could never take it away. The Hebrew word translated ‘atonement’ is kaphar, which means ‘cover.’

The solution was God’s plan to send His Son, the Second Person of the triune Godhead, the Lord Jesus Christ, to become a man—a perfect man—to be a sacrifice for sin. In the person of Jesus Christ, our Creator God stepped into history (John 1:1–14) to become a physical descendant of Adam, called ‘the last Adam’ (1 Corinthians 15:45), born of a virgin. Because the Holy Spirit overshadowed His mother (Luke 1:35), He was a perfect man, one without sin—despite having been tempted in every way that we are (Hebrews 4:15)—who thus could shed His blood on a cross for our sin.

Because mankind’s first representative head—Adam—was responsible for bringing sin and death into the world, the human race can now have a new representative—the ‘last Adam’—who paid the penalty for sin. No sinner could pay for the sins of others, but this last Adam—Jesus Christ—was a perfect man. God in human flesh was able to bear the sins and sorrows of the world.

 

[MikeMcK]

I still cannot accept why we all deserve eternal suffering. A few wrongs do not equal eternal pain.

We're not talking about a few wrongs". We're talking about a willful disobedience to the Sovereign of the Universe. It is nothing short of treason against the King.

Think of it this way...

Let's say I tell a lie to my daughter. Then, I tell a lie to my wife. After that, I tell a lie to my employer. Finally, I tell a lie to the government.

If I lie to my daughter, nothing will happen to me. If I lie to my wife, I'll sleep on the couch. If I lie to my employer, then I'll be fired. If I lie to the government, then I'll be charged with perjury and thrown into prison.

Do you notice how the conseqences for the same lie keep going up and up? This is because the authority of the one I've lied to keeps getting higher and higher.

God's holiness is more than we can fathom. When we sin against God, then the punishment has to be something consistent with the authority we've sinned against.

That's why Hell is eternal punishment.


Maybe we do not deserve to be in heaven, but I dont think we deserve hell ethier. Thank you again for all the replies.[/quote]