Can any way explain ...

[Dorothea]

It would seem to me that not such a sharp distinction is drawn today. It would be appropriate pastoral advice for spiritual fathers to exhort their flocks to imitate the ascetic monastics insofar as they are able as laypeople. Thus, some of that life must be shown to be within their reach.

Nevertheless, the impression that I get from writings and sayings of monks from the early desert fathers, to the Kollyvades monks on Athos in the eighteenth century, is that a special tier of blessedness is attained by those who seek purification in the monastic environment. They are the true spiritual athletes and the ones who obtain the later stages of theosis in their earthly lifetimes.

This is how Clement of Alexandria can speak about special Christian philosopher thrones that are distributed to those ascetics whose nous has been purified to the point of virtual dispassion. In the later Palamite tradition, Gregory himself and Nikodemos of the Holy Mountain relate much the same thing in terms of hesychastic practice.

What a wonderfully insightful post. Thank you much for this, Tzaousios. I wish I could achieve theosis. I want to be just like the Saints I've read about. I don't like to think that I cannot one day. Sometime later in my elderly years, maybe, just maybe, God will enlighten me and pour forth such grace on me that I will be like those great Saints. I do not want to be just the way I am the rest of my existence on this earth. I want to continue to grow and transform. I want to glow with the Holy Spirit inside me.

I don't believe in thinking I cannot do it with God's help. Someday....

 

[88Devin07]

Claro que si.

However, we are all called to be Saints (see your Bible).

Yes, we all most certainly are. But my point was that monasticism isn't the only way to sainthood.

 

[Knee V]

We are NOT called to be monastics, nor are we called to their level of spiritual discipline.

Some are called to that vocation, but others aren't. We should not be trying to live up to that level of intensity without actually being a monastic.

Now, that does NOT mean that we shouldn't strive for more and more communion with God. It doesn't mean that we can do whatever we want and listen to whatever we want. It simply means that our calling is different.

That is why, as laypeople, if we read Orthodox books written by monastics, we need to keep in mind that is from their point of view, and that it is often written for monastics and not for the average layperson.

We should definitely aim for the same level of deification as many monastics reach. But that doesn't mean that we have to live like monastics to do so.

I agree.

Claro que si.

However, we are all called to be Saints (see your Bible).

I agree.

Yes, we all most certainly are. But my point was that monasticism isn't the only way to sainthood.

I agree.

 

[Catherineanne]

'Letting stuff in' is the issue. I have come to realize that the competitive nature of theological debate within academia does something to me which I don't fully understand but which throws my relationship with God into a tailspin.

Not just your relationship with God, darling.

If you consider your relationship with God as central to your existence, in the same way as the earth's relationship with the sun, then when that one goes a bit wobbly, everything goes wobbly.



I have a friend who is a barrister, and who is perfectly lovable, charming and kind, unless you happen to trigger her into a state of advocacy, in which case she turns into a bit of a tiger. One point after another is thrown at you, beating you into submission bit by bit. Bless her, she doesn't even know she is doing it, but I know, and when she starts I disengage. I just let her talk it all out of her system.

Another friend is equally loveable, but is a nurse. She is fine, unless you happen to mention feeling a bit under the weather. Then you get the third degree about symptoms, and a whole list of possible diagnoses. If you don't stop her in her tracks and change the subject she will have you diagnosed and be advising on medication before you can turn around.

Another friend is a delight, until he gets triggered into sermon mode; he is, of course, a priest. Once he starts, again it is very difficult to stop him, but in this case I don't mind so much; I am usually (not always, of course) interested to learn from him.

What we learn from this is that we are all capable of getting caught in our own particular issues, and of extrapolating from them to the world at large as if we are Everyman. Mostly we are not. When my barrister friend is not a Barrister, she is lovely, ditto my nurse friend when not being a Nurse, and my priest friend when not being too much of a Priest. It is almost as if they put on another persona with these identities; not a particularly attractive one.

If you find the same happening to you, then at least you can see it. I suspect the antidote is to decide to listen and not join in; take a vow of silence at that point and stick to it. Regard it as part of Christian humility; that way you learn a lot, and you don't get wound up. Nobody learns anything if you join in, because the chances are the others are not listening, just as the Barrister, the Nurse and the Priest really don't want to know what I think; they just want to pontificate. Learn from A Kempis, and forget the rest. He will teach you all the theology you will ever need.

Another way of looking at this is through the model of; 'I'm ok:you're ok'. In debate the aim is to put the other side down (You're not ok) in order to win. In the more reasonable adult world there is no interest in; 'I win;you lose'. This only sows the seeds of the next confrontation, when you will hope to reverse the result.

Aim for 'I'm ok:you're ok.' In other words, there is much to be said for your point of view (however barking mad it actually is), but have you considered this issue as well? That invites calm consideration, rather than causing bruising.

If your theological debate is causing bruising, it is because it is being done in a childish way; I win, you lose.

Alternatively, look into transactional analysis to find out more about how this happens, and how we hook one another into feeling bad.

At least you are aware of the issues - most are not. Thank you for your thoughtful contribution.

I am only aware of them because I have to be. Ptsd is not pleasant to deal with, so I avoid anything that will set me off. Some things still inevitably get through and cause huge stress, but mostly I stay calm enough if I am careful.

 

[Catherineanne]

What a wonderfully insightful post. Thank you much for this, Tzaousios. I wish I could achieve theosis. I want to be just like the Saints I've read about.

Be careful what you ask for, D.

The path to theosis is through very great suffering. If you genuinely want that, then God will certainly lead you that way, but it is not to be taken lightly. I honestly recommend lots of prayer, beginning with, 'lead me not to the time of trial'.

Even the Lord himself feared the trial that he would be faced with, and prayed for it to be taken away, rather than brought to him. I think we do well to take the same view. We need lots of prayer.

Theosis is the end result of carrying our cross, and we achieve it when we find ourselves on the cross with Christ. There is no short cut.

 

[Catherineanne]

i would say that whatever activity is able to distract us from saying the Jesus prayer or other prayers then it's something we should think twice about doing it.

Prayer is not what we do, it is who we are.

Therefore, whatever else we may be doing at the same time is pretty well immaterial. The prayer continues.

We can put that prayer into words, or we can just continue to live it; God does not mind, as long as the prayer goes on.

 

[Catherineanne]

The fullest expression of ascetic discipline is found in monasticism, to be sure. They are the most athletic of the spiritual athletes.

I am not sure I agree with that one.

Here is a nice little story. I went to visit my priest friend when he had some Franciscans visiting his parish to run a mission. I made dinner in the evening for about 10 or 12 or so people. There were two options; veggie and non veggie, and several side dishes; the normal kind of thing.

One of the brothers spoke over dinner about Holy Poverty, and told us all about how he and his brothers owned nothing, and was clearly rather proud of this fact. He said that if at the end of the year they had money left over that they did not need, they gave it away. He was a rather round gentleman, who clearly did not want for a good meal. When I offered the vegetarian or meat option, he chose to take both.

As he was speaking I did not say anything, of course, that would not be polite. But if he thinks that poverty means paying all your bills, having everything you need and more than enough to eat, and giving away what is left over at the end of the year, then he is mistaken.

Poverty is actually having nothing, and no way to feed your children, and having to go into debt simply to buy food, with no way to repay that debt once taken on. Poverty is a mother (or father) who eats bread, so that their children can eat properly. People who willingly give all that they have to provide a better life for their children. There are thousands and thousands of such people all around us.

There is a level of protection afforded to those in Holy Orders that means that they are not exposed, except in very rare extremis, to the storms and buffetings of life in the same way as lay people are. Yes they sacrifice much, but they also gain a great deal. They will never face repossession of their homes, or the loss of their children through homelessness. They will never know real hunger.

It is one thing to live a life dedicated to prayer and service to the Lord. But imo, the woman struggling to look after her children, and going into debt, who nonetheless manages to pray regularly for them, and to remain faithful to the Lord, is engaging in an aesthetic struggle every bit as meaningful as that of the monk or nun, and with far less spiritual protection. Society prays for monks and nuns, but it blames single mothers for crime, unemployment, drugs; you name it really.

The parents in our society who bring up their children to be faithful believers, counter to all cultural pressures and sometimes enduring lasting hardship; these are the true athletes, imo. They don't get the fancy robes, or the religious names, but they are known to God, and valued very highly by him, imo.

 

[Catherineanne]

So, ideally, we should be striving to live a life of the ascetic pursuit of God as the monks do.

Monks are called to the aesthetic pursuit of God (whatever that is), we are called to the school run.

Both lead just as certainly to God.

 

[Catherineanne]

I don't remember where I heard it or read it that the ascetic life is not just for monks and nuns. It's for the laypeople too, as much as is possible for us.

I like to strive toward this, but there are some limitations, obviously, that I cannot fully and totally have all my time in that one focus. But, I do what I can.

I read something a little while ago that the Archbishop of Canterbury said about prayer. He said that it is like sunbathing. We don't get a better tan if we sit in a deckchair, screw up our eyes and concentrate hard on turning brown. We simply have to be in the right place.

Similarly, when we pray, what matters is to be in the right place with God. It matters less how hard we work at it.

This makes it a whole lot easier. A beginning can be made by having a prayer (or prayers) to say on rising, and ditto on going to bed. Then add whatever you want during the day, to return your mind to God.

All else follows from that. It doesn't have to be hard work, you just have to be in the sunshine.

 

[Knee V]

(whatever that is)

Prayer, fasting, and almsgiving.

EVERY Christian is called to this. It's just that the monks have fewer life distractions and are better able to make a "full time job" (so to speak) out of it. Of course, the exact manner in which you and I make progress in these areas will differ, but it's the path to which we're all called nonetheless.

 

[katherine2001]

We are NOT called to be monastics, nor are we called to their level of spiritual discipline.

Some are called to that vocation, but others aren't. We should not be trying to live up to that level of intensity without actually being a monastic.

Now, that does NOT mean that we shouldn't strive for more and more communion with God. It doesn't mean that we can do whatever we want and listen to whatever we want. It simply means that our calling is different.

That is why, as laypeople, if we read Orthodox books written by monastics, we need to keep in mind that is from their point of view, and that it is often written for monastics and not for the average layperson.

We should definitely aim for the same level of deification as many monastics reach. But that doesn't mean that we have to live like monastics to do so.

I totally agree. There was a priestmonk (Fr. Averky) that used to post on Monachos.net who used to say that people should not be reading the Philokalia unless they have a blessing from their priest to read it and that even a lot of monks never get a blessing from their spiritual father to read it. In one parish I attended, the priest even took it off the shelves of the library so that people had to talk to him before they could get their hands on it to read.

One of Satan's biggest tricks is to get us to try to do things that are way beyond our level to be trying. In this country especially, we are used to reading whatever we want to. How many of us ask our priest about the books that we are interested in reading (especially the really deep spiritual ones) to see if he thinks we are ready to read them.

Fr. Averky (the priestmonk that I mentioned above) was at Jordanville. He died a few years ago, and I really miss him. I can remember how people would come on there interested in the Orthodox faith and asking for recommendations for what to read. People would start listing the really spiritual books and that would bug Fr. Averky no end because he would point out that you start at the bottom and work your way up, not start at the top. He was 100% right. If you are a member on Monachos.net, look up Fr. Averky's posts because he had so much good advice.

 

[Catherineanne]

Prayer, fasting, and almsgiving.

Thanks for the clarification.

I was aware of the three vows of poverty, chastity and obedience, which are augmented by the additional gifts of silence, solitude, prayer, penance and mortification. I was not particularly familiar with the exact combination which is involved in Orthodox religious life.

Almsgiving is a bit tricky, however, to those who do not own anything.

EVERY Christian is called to this. It's just that the monks have fewer life distractions and are better able to make a "full time job" (so to speak) out of it. Of course, the exact manner in which you and I make progress in these areas will differ, but it's the path to which we're all called nonetheless.

I agree. I am not sure the monks have fewer distractions, however. The more silence we live in, the greater the potential for distraction from God.

 

[Catherineanne]

I totally agree. There was a priestmonk (Fr. Averky) that used to post on Monachos.net who used to say that people should not be reading the Philokalia unless they have a blessing from their priest to read it and that even a lot of monks never get a blessing from their spiritual father to read it. In one parish I attended, the priest even took it off the shelves of the library so that people had to talk to him before they could get their hands on it to read.

This is sensible enough, but I think my priest would be rather surprised if I asked his permission before reading any particular book. For one thing, I read a lot, and he would find it a bit too intrusive, I suspect.

However, as a general principle, it is far safer than a new Christian plunging straight into more esoteric writings, certainly.

 

[Photini]

I totally agree. There was a priestmonk (Fr. Averky) that used to post on Monachos.net who used to say that people should not be reading the Philokalia unless they have a blessing from their priest to read it and that even a lot of monks never get a blessing from their spiritual father to read it. In one parish I attended, the priest even took it off the shelves of the library so that people had to talk to him before they could get their hands on it to read.

One of Satan's biggest tricks is to get us to try to do things that are way beyond our level to be trying. In this country especially, we are used to reading whatever we want to. How many of us ask our priest about the books that we are interested in reading (especially the really deep spiritual ones) to see if he thinks we are ready to read them.

Fr. Averky (the priestmonk that I mentioned above) was at Jordanville. He died a few years ago, and I really miss him. I can remember how people would come on there interested in the Orthodox faith and asking for recommendations for what to read. People would start listing the really spiritual books and that would bug Fr. Averky no end because he would point out that you start at the bottom and work your way up, not start at the top. He was 100% right. If you are a member on Monachos.net, look up Fr. Averky's posts because he had so much good advice.

I've missed him so much over these years. We used to email back & forth everyday. He really kept me in check in my beginning days of learning about Orthodoxy.

 

[Dorothea]

Be careful what you ask for, D.

The path to theosis is through very great suffering. If you genuinely want that, then God will certainly lead you that way, but it is not to be taken lightly. I honestly recommend lots of prayer, beginning with, 'lead me not to the time of trial'.

Even the Lord himself feared the trial that he would be faced with, and prayed for it to be taken away, rather than brought to him. I think we do well to take the same view. We need lots of prayer.

Theosis is the end result of carrying our cross, and we achieve it when we find ourselves on the cross with Christ. There is no short cut.

I agree that we do not see the Saints' suffering too much (the ones that weren't killed/martyred), even though in their personal stories there are many parts that talk about it, it's hard to really imagine and totally understand.

I will be careful. God knows me better than I do, and knows what I need more than I do.

 

[Catherineanne]

I agree that we do not see the Saints' suffering too much (the ones that weren't killed/martyred), even though in their personal stories there are many parts that talk about it, it's hard to really imagine and totally understand.

I will be careful. God knows me better than I do, and knows what I need more than I do.

Indeed so.

If it helps, the fact that you are asking for this grace is a good indicator that you know the path that lies ahead, but it will not be an easy one. If the sun is still shining, then don't be in any hurry to leave it and enter the valley of the shadow. It will come in its own time.

Meanwhile, make sure your spiritual direction is rock solid. That is essential.

 

[Dorothea]

Indeed so.

If it helps, the fact that you are asking for this grace is a good indicator that you know the path that lies ahead, but it will not be an easy one. If the sun is still shining, then don't be in any hurry to leave it and enter the valley of the shadow. It will come in its own time.

Meanwhile, make sure your spiritual direction is rock solid. That is essential.

Thanks. I wasn't meaning that I was asking for very difficult hardships. He has blessed me so much...all my life. I figure each person has different levels of trials, and mine is what I can withstand/handle (at the times/trials I've had).

 

[Catherineanne]

Thanks. I wasn't meaning that I was asking for very difficult hardships. He has blessed me so much...all my life. I figure each person has different levels of trials, and mine is what I can withstand/handle (at the times/trials I've had).

That is the problem with God. We want to get closer to him, and we ask to be as close as we can get, but we don't always realise that the surest path to God leads through suffering.

And now that you do know that, would you ask not to draw closer to God?



Grace is a wonderful thing. It draws us home, regardless of where that path leads us. And we are tried beyond our strength. Our Lord was, and we will be. That is a given.

I have had an interesting life, so far. And looking back on that interesting life, and then looking forward, it is unlikely to become less interesting as time goes on. That does not seem to be how the Lord works.

 

[Dorothea]

That is the problem with God. We want to get closer to him, and we ask to be as close as we can get, but we don't always realise that the surest path to God leads through suffering.

And now that you do know that, would you ask not to draw closer to God?



Grace is a wonderful thing. It draws us home, regardless of where that path leads us. And we are tried beyond our strength. Our Lord was, and we will be. That is a given.

I have had an interesting life, so far. And looking back on that interesting life, and then looking forward, it is unlikely to become less interesting as time goes on. That does not seem to be how the Lord works.

No, I wouldn't not ask to draw nearer to Him. Like I said, I trust in Him and He knows me better than I know myself.

Yes, you're probably right on that. My life has been interesting as well.

 

[Catherineanne]

No, I wouldn't not ask to draw nearer to Him. Like I said, I trust in Him and He knows me better than I know myself.

Yes, you're probably right on that. My life has been interesting as well.