Can a Presbyterian Believe in the Virgin of Guadalupe?

EvangelCatholic

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I found this article on the ELCA website. A Presbyterian pastor of St Joseph Parish in Wisconsin who accepts the image of Our Lady in the church.

Excerpts taken from "Living Lutheran".

By Neddy Astudillo

As a Presbyterian pastor, working for an ecumenical (ELCA and Presbyterian) Latino ministry, the Virgin of Guadalupe was a new experience for me. As a Venezuelan, I was aware of other stories of apparitions attributed to the Virgin Mary. But I did not learn about Guadalupe’s until I started my work in Beloit, Wis., at Parroquia San José, a joint ELCA – Presbyterian congregation where most members are Mexican immigrants.
Although stories of apparitions, theophanies, dreams and visions are not foreign to Latino popular religiosity nor to our Judeo Christian tradition (in Scripture, God speaks through angels, dreams, ravens, rainbow, whirlwind, clouds, burning bush, etc.), seminary didn’t teach me how to incorporate these into the life of a reformed worshiping community. That is something I had to learn in situ.

After a year of being the pastor of San José, I realized that many of our members either had shrines dedicated to the Virgin at home or carried small images of her in their pockets, wallets and cars. I began to realize that unintentionally our church was not fully embracing Latinos’ spirituality. We started talking about it and inquiring about the story of the Virgin of Guadalupe – she appeared in 1531 to an indigenous man, one of the earliest converts to Christianity in that region, a seeker of truth, history says. Knowing that not everyone was in agreement to have an image of the Virgin at church, much less in the sanctuary, we started looking at our own tradition. Does Lutheranism have a space for Mary?

Going through our Presbyterian genealogy was not as easy. Presbyterians had moved away from anything that looked “Catholic,” but Martin Luther was very devoted to Mary and considered her the mother of the church. Why then weren’t we even talking about Mary outside of the Christmas season? We looked at our common Scripture – Moses and Elijah appearing to Jesus at a very important moment in his ministry. Was this different? Yes? No? Why?

After months of conversation, it was clear that our church did have space for the Virgin of Guadalupe. Our faith in Jesus Christ was not requiring us to abandon our Latino culture and spiritual experiences. Christ was embracing us regardless, and the Virgin of Guadalupe was pointing us to Christ. No one needs to believe in the Virgin of Guadalupe to be saved. In our church, some venerate her, some do not. She is a symbol of our spiritual diversity, respect and inclusivity, but Christ is our unifying force and is who determines our salvation.

When we look at history and the result of the apparition, as historian Virgilio Elizondo shares in his book “Galilean Journey, The Mexican-American Promise,” we see that the miracle that happened in 1531 was not Mary’s appearance but rather what happened to the defeated and slaughtered indigenous peoples – those whose land and way of life had been stolen. Through the Virgin of Guadalupe, God spoke tenderly and directly to them, the downtrodden, in a way that they and the church hierarchy could also understand. This experience returned a strength and a desire to live and struggle for life to all indigenous people and Latin Americans up to this day.


Neddy Astudillo is the pastor of Parroquia San José, an ecumenical — ELCA and Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) — Latino ministry in Beloit, Wis.

 

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hedrick

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A Presbyterian can believe that a miracle happened, even among Catholics. That's the topic statement for the thread. But the posting goes beyond that to look at the use of images, and devotions to Mary.

At that point it depends upon how images are used, and the attitude of people to them. Pictures of Biblical stories have been used in Sunday School and in stained glass windows. There the purpose is to remind people of Biblical events. Pictures of non-Bibical people that might inspire us with their lives can be OK as well. I have a problem when the nature of the image or how it's used begins to encourage "devotion" to them. I suppose in some sense I'm devoted to John Calvin. But the closer that devotion gets to the worship of God the more I become concerned. It's hard to know from the article how close that ministry is coming, but I'd bet it's closer than I would consider proper.

I have a problem with devotion to Mary even during the Christmas season. I find the emphasis on her consent to God a bit overblown. As far as I can tell from the story, the angel didn't actually give her a choice. She was just acknowledging what she had been told was going to happen.
 
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Great explanation, as always.

Jesus directed all glory toward the Father. If an apparition or saint or anything secondary draws our attention away from the Father and toward itself, we need to watch ourselves.

Angel visitations are scriptural, dreams and visions and prophecy are scriptural... but all supernatural interventions are intended to support us and draw us closer to God. Remember that Satan was a high-ranking angel who fell because he wanted attention for himself...power, more authority than he was allotted.

It's important to respect people's cultural heritage, and celebrate the ways God intervened in the past. But bringing it into the sanctuary might not necessarily honor God.
 
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stray bullet

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I have a problem with devotion to Mary even during the Christmas season. I find the emphasis on her consent to God a bit overblown. As far as I can tell from the story, the angel didn't actually give her a choice. She was just acknowledging what she had been told was going to happen.

So God raped Mary?

I am pretty sure if I told my girlfriend she didn't have a choice and she acknowledged what was going to happen I ought to be jailed.
 
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hedrick

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So God raped Mary?

I am pretty sure if I told my girlfriend she didn't have a choice and she acknowledged what was going to happen I ought to be jailed.

Look at what she said, “Here am I, the servant of the Lord; let it be with me according to your word.”

Is that consent? God didn’t ask for permission. She accepted it. Not just grudgingly, per the following canticle. It’s more that just acknowledging it, because she’s rejoicing. But God didn’t ask permission or show any signs of waiting for her consent. So I think permission is a bit too strong. I’m not sure what word to use, since our language isn’t really set up to deal with God announcing what he’s going to do with us.

The difference between God and people does matter here, I think. First, God presumably knows ahead of time what our attitude will be. That’s something that you don’t know for your girlfriend.

Second for a girl to be completely submissive to a guy would be viewed as unhealthy today. But God deserves a level of trust that other people don’t. I think that changes things here.

My point wasn’t that she was raped. But it’s not the kind of glorious decision that some devotion to Mary would imply.

Furthermore, whatever it might be, it wouldn’t be rape. Because God didn’t have sex with her. It would be just as invasive if she objected, so maybe the distinction doesn’t matter. But there’s enough misunderstanding of that kind in discussions with Muslims that I feel the urge to warn people to be careful in their wording.
 
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stray bullet

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Look at what she said, “Here am I, the servant of the Lord; let it be with me according to your word.”

Is that consent?

That sounds like consent to me.

God didn’t ask for permission. She accepted it.

That's called rape.

Not just grudgingly, per the following canticle. It’s more that just acknowledging it, because she’s rejoicing. But God didn’t ask permission or show any signs of waiting for her consent. So I think permission is a bit too strong. I’m not sure what word to use, since our language isn’t really set up to deal with God announcing what he’s going to do with us.

That's called rape.
In fact, forcing a woman to have your child is worse than rape.

The difference between God and people does matter here, I think. First, God presumably knows ahead of time what our attitude will be. That’s something that you don’t know for your girlfriend.

Whether or not I know a woman wants to have sex with me does not give me permission to have forceful sex with her. I would not have sex with her in a comatose state. But according to you, God knocks up women and doesn't care if they give consent.

Second for a girl to be completely submissive to a guy would be viewed as unhealthy today. But God deserves a level of trust that other people don’t. I think that changes things here.

I think for a human to give up free will is considered unhealthy today.

My point wasn’t that she was raped. But it’s not the kind of glorious decision that some devotion to Mary would imply.

No, I think some people view Mary as someone God put His seed in and made His Son, as though she were some sort of dirt.

Furthermore, whatever it might be, it wouldn’t be rape. Because God didn’t have sex with her. It would be just as invasive if she objected, so maybe the distinction doesn’t matter. But there’s enough misunderstanding of that kind in discussions with Muslims that I feel the urge to warn people to be careful in their wording.

I guess being against forcing a woman to bare your child makes me a Muslim.
 
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hedrick

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I guess being against forcing a woman to bare your child makes me a Muslim.

I'm going to quit before this gets worse. But what I meant was that Muslims often seem to think that God had sex with Mary. I don't think any Christians actually mean to say that. At least I hope not. Rape usually implies sex.
 
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Mary was not asked if she would be the mother of Christ ...she was told what would be ...
She was ordained to be the mother of Christ and to fulfill the OT prophecies..
The grace of God that drew her and made her willing is the same irritable grace that drew all of us that are His
 
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rnmomof7

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I found this article on the ELCA website. A Presbyterian pastor of St Joseph Parish in Wisconsin who accepts the image of Our Lady in the church.

Excerpts taken from "Living Lutheran".

Keep in mind that the PCUSA and the ELC are the most liberal branches of their respective denominations..
 
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SinnerInTheHands

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A Presbyterian pastor of St Joseph Parish in Wisconsin who accepts the image of Our Lady in the church.

Let me guess: PCUSA?

"The sins forbidden in the second commandment are, all devising, counseling, commanding, using, and any wise approving, any religious worship not instituted by God himself; the making any representation of God, of all or of any of the three persons, either inwardly in our mind, or outwardly in any kind of image or likeness of any creature whatsoever; all worshiping of it, or God in it or by it; the making of any representation of feigned deities, and all worship of them, or service belonging to them; all superstitious devices, corrupting the worship of God, adding to it, or taking from it, whether invented and taken up of ourselves, or received by tradition from others, though under the title of antiquity, custom, devotion, good intent, or any other pretense whatsoever; simony; sacrilege; all neglect, contempt, hindering, and opposing the worship and ordinances which God hath appointed." [Westminster Larger Catechism, 108]
 
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fat wee robin

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That's almost as ironic as the statue of him they put in the nave of St. Giles' in Edinburgh. I mean it wasn't like he was a rabid iconoclast or anything, right? :doh:
Have just finished reading Walter Scotts book "Old Mortality " . A brilliant writers
story, set in 17 /18 th century Scotland .
The Covenanters were predicting and creating the 'end of the world ' scenario, back then too .
 
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