Can a person love without the Ten Commandments

[k4c]

Can a person love without the Ten Commandments? Yes they can.

Can a person have a godly love without the Ten Commandments? No they can't.

There are many nonchristian organizations in the world doing a powerful work for the needy and homeless. They are feeding them, clothing them and building houses for them. These same people may even reject God.

There is a love in the world, which looks good and sounds good but it's godless. The big deception is that love does not have to look ungodly to be godless.

The Ten Commandments is what determines whether a person is loving with a godly love or a worldly love.

What if I'm in an active sexual relationship with my girlfriend. We love each other very deeply, there is not a person who can deny this love we have for one another.

To the world, it's so nice how we love each other our friends may even give us a weekend get away to a cuddles and bubbles hotel.

Is this a godly love or an ungodly love?

What determines this?

God tells us in the Ten Commandments what pleases Him. He tells us that He has blessed and set apart the seventh day as something very good. He has ordained this day to gather in His name to worship Him as the one true God and Creator. He tells us that we can express our love for Him by remembering to keep the seventh day holy.

Isaiah 58:13-14 "If because of the Sabbath, you turn your foot from doing your own pleasure on My holy day, and call the Sabbath a delight, the holy day of the Lord honorable, and shall honor it, desisting from your own ways, from seeking your own pleasure, and speaking your own word, then you will take delight in the Lord, and I will make you ride on the heights of the earth; and I will feed you with the heritage of Jacob your father, for the mouth of the Lord has spoken."

Now what if I reject this and keep the first day holy and do everything that God tells us not to do on the seventh day?

Is this a godly love or an ungodly love?

Does this love look ungodly?

The world may say you are a very good Christian, but to God, He would be sad that you didn't honor Him.

God tells us that we need to exercised our senses to discern both good and evil.

There is a difference between right and wrong and good and evil. Good and evil is spiritual.

So you see, the foundation of godly love is found in the Ten Commandments. But the Ten Commandments by themselves does not produce the love itself. We know this by what we see in the Pharisees. They kept the Ten Commandments but they didn't have the love that God is looking for that should accompany obedience.

There is a perfect example of keeping the commandments yet not really loving found in Matthew 19.

Matthew 19:16-22 Now behold, one came and said to Him, "Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?'' So He said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.'' He said to Him, "Which ones?'' Jesus said, " `You shall not murder,' `You shall not commit adultery,' `You shall not steal,' `You shall not bear false witness,' 'Honor your father and your mother,' and, `You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' '' The young man said to Him, "All these things I have kept from my youth. What do I still lack?'' Jesus said to him, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.'' But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.

Here we have a rich man wanting to know how to have eternal life. Jesus points him to the Ten Commandments. The man then says he has kept them from his youth. Jesus then goes on to test the rich man to see if he has the love by telling him to help the needy. The man failed the test because though he was keeping the law, he didn't have the love. This is the same character we find in the Pharisees and many Christians today.

So it's important to love and keep the commandments because as we have seen, we can have one without the other. Jesus' life testimony was one that revealed this and the Devil hates it.

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The faith of Jesus is what teaches us how to love God and neighbor through keeping the Ten Commandments.

Revelation 14:12 Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

So you see, the commandments become just a rigid ritualistic list of rules without love and love becomes just a means to satisfy the flesh without the commandments, we need both. This is why Jesus came and this is what His words and life taught us as our example.

Many blessings,
Brother John

 

[DeanM]

Can a person have a godly love without the Ten Commandments? No they can't.

Interesting points.

As a liberal, I'm finding myself with the opinion that goodness comes from God, whether or not the person realizes it or not. Love is God's gift. So, a person who goes through life without murdering anyone is in compliance with the first commandment. Would their lack of knowledge of that commandment make them any less good in God's eyes? I believe God is not petty, but loving and understanding, IMHO. I also do not think that anyone who disagrees with me is necessarily wrong, though. We all have a right to believe in our own way, and hopefully with the idea that God's love is the mechanism that drives righteous behaviour in His children.

One can hope, anyway . . .

This is all just my opinion, and I hope I'm not out of line by posting my liberal thoughts in your forum.

 

[StormyOne]

Dean your comments are appreciated... this emphasis on "the 10 commandments" is interesting given that the bible says that God said if you LOVE me KEEP my commandments... thus before the 10 commands comes love.....

 

[Mankin]

Do not concern yourself Dean. I believe this member is a traditional SDA tho I could be wrong.

No offense meant to you of course k4

 

[.chrys.]

So you see, the foundation of godly love is found in the Ten Commandments.

Something about the use of that word, "foundation". The foundation of love is God--not in His creation, not in His mandates or commands. The foundation of love is God.

 

[k4c]

Something about the use of that word, "foundation". The foundation of love is God--not in His creation, not in His mandates or commands. The foundation of love is God.

God is love but without the understanding of godly love we can come to all kinds of conclusions. The Ten Commandments are a reflection of God's character so if God is love then the Ten Commandments are a reflection of that love.

 

[StormyOne]

God is love but without the understanding of godly love we can come to all kinds of conclusions. The Ten Commandments are a reflection of of God's character so if God is love then the Ten Commandments are a reflection of that love.

you believe that the ten commandments are a reflection, I do not share that belief..... God is not reflected by his commands.... his love needs no reflection...

 

[sentipente]

Can a person have a godly love without the Ten Commandments? No they can't.

So, what do you call the love that they have?

 

[VictorC]

Can a person love without the Ten Commandments? Yes they can.

Can a person have a godly love without the Ten Commandments? No they can't.

Do you wonder at times if God loves you?
How can God love you with a godly love in your manmade model, since He is the lawgiver (Isaiah 33:22) and therefore Sovereign to His created law? Even in His earthly incarnation, Jesus' submission to the law mediated by Moses was voluntary, since He wasn't subject to it.

Galatians 4:1-5
1 ¶ Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;
2 But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.
3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

The Ten Commandments is what determines whether a person is loving with a godly love or a worldly love.

Jesus didn't seem to think so.
John 5:39-46
39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
41 I receive not honour from men.
42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.

These words were spoken to those abiding in Moses (or so they thought) and were observant of the ten commandment covenant mediated in his hands.

God tells us in the Ten Commandments what pleases Him. He tells us that He has blessed and set apart the seventh day as something very good. He has ordained this day to gather in His name to worship Him as the one true God and Creator. He tells us that we can express our love for Him by remembering to keep the seventh day holy.

Isaiah 58:13-14 "If because of the Sabbath, you turn your foot from doing your own pleasure on My holy day, and call the Sabbath a delight, the holy day of the Lord honorable, and shall honor it, desisting from your own ways, from seeking your own pleasure, and speaking your own word, then you will take delight in the Lord, and I will make you ride on the heights of the earth; and I will feed you with the heritage of Jacob your father, for the mouth of the Lord has spoken."

Isaiah prophesied during the tenure of Moses' jurisdiction, and spoke of the sabbath that was given to Moses in the covenant (Deuteronomy 4:13). Please remember this, as there wasn't a recipient of this "holy day" outside of the House of Israel.
Gentiles were invited into this covenant, if they chose to honor God and the shadow of the periodic sabbath day, as Isaiah 56:6-7:

6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;
7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

Just one catch: you must enter into the Mosaic covenant along with the House of Israel.
The entrance fee is circumcision, I hope you don't mind the knife (Leviticus 12:1-3 and Exodus 12:48-49).

Now what if I reject this and keep the first day holy and do everything that God tells us not to do on the seventh day?

Is this a godly love or an ungodly love?

Does this love look ungodly?

The world may say you are a very good Christian, but to God, He would be sad that you didn't honor Him.

I believe that God would be very disappointed in your view that His redemption wasn't sufficient for you, and you still needed to establish your own righteousness according to a covenant that has been replaced (Hebrews 10:9).

Romans 10:1-4
1 ¶ Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

I had earlier quoted Galatians 4:5 in this post; do you not know why the redeemed were under the law, in the past-tense?

So you see, the foundation of godly love is found in the Ten Commandments. But the Ten Commandments by themselves does not produce the love itself. We know this by what we see in the Pharisees. They kept the Ten Commandments but they didn't have the love that God is looking for that should accompany obedience.

Actually, anyone who doesn't abide by the entire 613 mitzvot of the law is cursed (Galatians 3:10), and there wasn't and there isn't anyone who has complied with them, ever. For God has Himself declared of Israel in Romans 11:32
For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.
Read the context of this passage, to see that the disobedience of Israel was instrumental in salvation being shared with the Gentiles, so that we too could receive the blessing made to Abraham.

There is a perfect example of keeping the commandments yet not really loving found in Matthew 19.

Matthew 19:16-22 Now behold, one came and said to Him, "Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?'' So He said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.'' He said to Him, "Which ones?'' Jesus said, " `You shall not murder,' `You shall not commit adultery,' `You shall not steal,' `You shall not bear false witness,' 'Honor your father and your mother,' and, `You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' '' The young man said to Him, "All these things I have kept from my youth. What do I still lack?'' Jesus said to him, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.'' But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.

Here we have a rich man wanting to know how to have eternal life. Jesus points him to the Ten Commandments. The man then says he has kept them from his youth. Jesus then goes on to test the rich man to see if he has the love by telling him to help the needy. The man failed the test because though he was keeping the law, he didn't have the love. This is the same character we find in the Pharisees and many Christians today.

It is delusional to believe that your own works are going to impress God in the slightest, and it is an assertion made in ignorance to God's righteousness, just as Romans 10:3 (quoted earlier) illustrates.

Perhaps it would have helped if you had included a bit more in this quote you provided.

Matthew 19:23-26
23 ¶ Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

Now this wealthy man had already testified that he had kept the commandments mediated by Moses his entire life.
Jesus said that was insufficient to save this man.

This lesson wasn't lost on His disciples, who were astounded that this law wasn't going to cut the cake with a Holy God.
Only with God is salvation possible, and the motions of piety you wish to display don't mean diddley squat to Him.

So it's important to love and keep the commandments because as we have seen, we can have one without the other. Jesus' life testimony was one that revealed this and the Devil hates it.

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The faith of Jesus is what teaches us how to love God and neighbor through keeping the Ten Commandments.

Hold on!
You just quoted a discription of the remnant of Israel who keep God's commandments; where did you make the jump to the ten commandments? The same author as your citation defined His commandments in 1 John 3:23, and they are not of the ten commandments.

I believe you aren't aware that the ten commandments were the covenant mediated by Moses, and is known as the first or old covenant:

Exodus 34:27-28
27 And the LORD said unto Moses, Write thou these words: for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel.
28 And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And He wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.
Deuteronomy 4:12-13
12 And the LORD spake unto you out of the midst of the fire: ye heard the voice of the words, but saw no similitude; only ye heard a voice.
13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

This is the covenant that is called the "ministration of death" in 2 Corinthians 3:7 for a good reason: the covenant contained penalties for noncompliance: death. That is the penalty for defiling the sabbath (Exodus 31:14), and you have defiled it if you haven't had two lambs sacrificed on your behalf (Numbers 28:9-10).

What? You say that isn't required anymore because Christ did that?
WRONG.
Christ is the mediator of a new covenant - and the sabbath is a component of the old one mediated by Moses. That's the message of Hebrews 8:6-7
6 ¶ But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second....

Remember Romans 11:32? God has concluded everyone disobedient? This is the fault of the first covenant - it wasn't complied with; the next verse mentions the specific fault was with the recipients of this faulty, uncompliable covenant.
Hebrews 10:9
Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

The Mosaic covenant of the ten commandments was taken away - and it was God who disposed of it.
I hope you can perceive that there isn't any such thing as a sabbath ordinance outside of Moses.

Hebrews 7:18-19
18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

Is it possible to have godly love without the old covenant?
Sure. It was only made as a cage for rabblerousers anyway (Galatians 3:19 and 1 Timothy 1:8-9).

Victor

 

[moicherie]

Sermon on the Mount

"Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 11If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! 12So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

The ability to love is God given one does not need to know the 10 commandments to do this. For example the cohabiting couple probably have a better and more loving relationship than the Adventist couple that are together for appearances sake. The fact that many Adventist marriages are breaking up we should be the last to talk about godless love when we cannot even keep our marriages loving.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Can a person have a godly love without the Ten Commandments? No they can't.

Interesting.

Did Godly love exist during the days of Abraham? According to Deuteronomy 5 and Galatians 3:16-19, the law was not given until 430 years after Abraham. If your hypothesis is true, there must have been no Godly love prior to the life of Moses. Is that your claim?

BFA

 

[JonMiller]

If you love someone do you steal from them, lie about them, murder them?

Most people agree that the 9 of the 10 commandments are still the law. It is only those who have some issue with the law because of bad expereinces within the adventist church who seem to have an issue with this. They are set in some literal definition of law where the 10 commandments are only valid when they were given and that before it was OK to murder or something? (and after Christ)

JM

 

[Byfaithalone1]

If you love someone do you steal from them, lie about them, murder them?

All who love God are guilty of such sins.

Most people agree that the 9 of the 10 commandments are still the law.

Most? Can you share any evidence of "most?"

It is only those who have some issue with the law

"For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8But God found fault with the people and said The time is coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah." Hebrews 8
​

because of bad expereinces within the adventist church who seem to have an issue with this.

The SDA denomination also confirms that the law was fulfilled. However, it picks and chooses which laws it likes and which it doesn't.

They are set in some literal definition of law where the 10 commandments are only valid when they were given and that before it was OK to murder or something? (and after Christ)

I've never met a single person who takes this view (I know that I don't). Sin exists even in the absence of a codified system of law.

Do you have any thoughts regarding my previously articulated questions? Here they are again:

Did Godly love exist during the days of Abraham?

According to Deuteronomy 5 and Galatians 3:16-19, the law was not given until 430 years after Abraham. Was there no Godly love prior to the life of Moses?

BFA

 

[VictorC]

If you love someone do you steal from them, lie about them, murder them?

Most people agree that the 9 of the 10 commandments are still the law. It is only those who have some issue with the law because of bad expereinces within the adventist church who seem to have an issue with this. They are set in some literal definition of law where the 10 commandments are only valid when they were given and that before it was OK to murder or something? (and after Christ)

JM

The position you posit doesn't agree with the Bible; the Scriptures don't dismiss one commandment and keep the other nine, nor does it keep the other 612 mitzvot binding - the entire covenant mediated by Moses is 'one law' that stands or falls as one unit.

And, that unit isn't a "guide for good living", as binding law contains penalties for infractions. Seventh-day Adventists break the sabbath commandment every week when they fail to sacrifice two lambs (Numbers 28:9-10), and so you are deserving of the death penalty for defiling the sabbath (Exodus 31:14).

According to your approach, it would be okay to covet and probably steal something that belongs to another, since the 10th commandment reads this from Exodus 20:17:
Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

After all, we have been delivered from that part of the law, according to Romans 7:6-7:

6: But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7: What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

There isn't any escaping the identity of the legal body that we have been delivered from; it is the "ministration of death", as 2 Corinthians 3:7 call the ten commandments. That name is appropriate, as there isn't a single SDA alive who keeps the sabbath day holy as Exodus 20:8 requires those under the law to do.

Victor

 

[JonMiller]

I don't understand how your post is relevant.

JM

 

[JonMiller]

All who love God are guilty of such sins.



Most? Can you share any evidence of "most?"

"For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8But God found fault with the people and said The time is coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah." Hebrews 8
​

The SDA denomination also confirms that the law was fulfilled. However, it picks and chooses which laws it likes and which it doesn't.



I've never met a single person who takes this view (I know that I don't). Sin exists even in the absence of a codified system of law.

Do you have any thoughts regarding my previously articulated questions? Here they are again:

Did Godly love exist during the days of Abraham?

According to Deuteronomy 5 and Galatians 3:16-19, the law was not given until 430 years after Abraham. Was there no Godly love prior to the life of Moses?

BFA

What does law mean? Law does not mean the codified list given to Moses.

The law existed (and was valid) before Moses, the law exists (and was valid) after Christ. The law awlays has existed and always will exist.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/law <- to help you understand what law means.

If peopel say that murder is wrong, then they still beleive that that commandment is the law. Most Christians therefore hold that 9 of the 10 commandments are the law.

You can't redefine our language to exclude the meaning of the word law.

JM

 

[Byfaithalone1]

What does law mean? Law does not mean the codified list given to Moses.

What law is described in Romans 7:1-7?

What law is described in 2 Corinthians 3:6-16?

What law is described in Galatians 4:21-31?

It seems difficult to make the claim that the law described in these passages does not include the ten commandments.

The law existed (and was valid) before Moses,

According to Deuteronomy 5:1-5, the ten commandments did not exist prior to the life of Moses.

the law exists (and was valid) after Christ.

According to Galatians 3:16-19, the law was added 430 years after Abraham and only until the Seed had come.

The law awlays has existed and always will exist.

The fourth commandment has always existed? The fourth commandment had no starting point? Is that what the Scriptures teach?

If peopel say that murder is wrong, then they still beleive that that commandment is the law.

I see no Scriptural basis for reaching this conclusion. Rather, I notice that--in certain instances--murder was contrary to the mind of God even before there was a codified system of law. Therefore, I believe that sin exists even in the absence of a codified system of law.

Q: Do you believe that the Holy Spirit convicts a man with respect to sin and righteousness and judgment?

Most Christians therefore hold that 9 of the 10 commandments are the law.

Although I suspect that you are inaccurate in your use of "most," I can confirm that I personally do not believe that 9 out of the 10 commandments are the law.

You can't redefine our language to exclude the meaning of the word law.

With all due respect, one should not create doctrines that directly contradict Scripture in order to satisy the meaning that he attaches to the word "law."

BFA

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Can a person love without the Ten Commandments? Yes they can.

Can a person have a godly love without the Ten Commandments? No they can't.

The remainder of the OP which consisted, in Moriah's opines, of gratuitous indulgence in Tradventist theolospin, has been cheerfuly deleted. Let's address the opening question of the OP by itself.

Q: Can a person love (godly love) without the Ten Commandments?
A: Yes, they can; and in fact, they must.

For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
-- John 1:17

The "law" does not teach love. It only teaches conformity of exterior appearances and behavior. One can choose not to murder or to commit adultery for an endless variety of ultimately selfish and self-serving reasons, none of which have anything to do with Love whatsoever unless we mean the narcissistic love and protection of SELF.

The only One who can teach us love bes Christ ... not the law.
The law bes a "schoolmaster" to bring us unto Christ, but once we have received faith in Christ we have no further need of the schoolmaster. Scripture states this explicitly, Galatians 3:24-25.

We bes changed by beholding Christ ... not comparing ourselves to the law. The latter always results in condemnation. The former always ends in mercy and abundant grace triumphing over the power of sin and death.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

This is all just my opinion, and I hope I'm not out of line by posting my liberal thoughts in your forum.

We enjoy you sharing your insights. This bes not the Tradventist forum so no worries that "liberal" will be falsely regarded as a dirty word here.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Grace bes not instituted as merely some "trick" to drag us back under the law.

Merciful and mighty Lord, silence those lies and the lips that speak them, and open the eyes of the blind attached to them.