Can A Dead Unregenerate Sinner Be Drawn To Christ?

[gmm4j]

Good night brother. Have a restful sleep and a productive day in Him!

 

[gmm4j]

Trying to clarify my line of questioning let me state: I am trying to find out how a dead wicked and evil natured, rebellious against God, person can make any type of step / decision / thought toward God by going to church, attempting to read Scripture, ask someone for prayer, etc. without being regenerated first. Now, some of these will be regenerated and others will not - I understand. But, why and how does a dead man respond to a preacher's invitation to go to church to learn more about God (your illustration)? As I understand Calvinism's Total Inability he should not be able to take even that step. Dead men don't move (at all) unless they are made to come alive. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding Total Inability, but "Total" doesn't leave much wiggle room.

Blessings!

 

[Eddie L]

Trying to clarify my line of questioning let me state: I am trying to find out how a dead wicked and evil natured, rebellious against God, person can make any type of step / decision / thought toward God by going to church, attempting to read Scripture, ask someone for prayer, etc. without being regenerated first. Now, some of these will be regenerated and others will not - I understand. But, why and how does a dead man respond to a preacher's invitation to go to church to learn more about God (your illustration)? As I understand Calvinism's Total Inability he should not be able to take even that step. Dead men don't move (at all) unless they are made to come alive. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding Total Inability, but "Total" doesn't leave much wiggle room.

Blessings!

It is very possible to do the right thing for selfish reasons. Someone could go to church to establish a reputation for themselves, or to be with other people, or because they think it makes them better parents. That's not the same thing as being drawn to Christ.

 

[gmm4j]

Hi EddieL,

Amen. I agree. In my own testimony before I came to an unwavering faith I sought and inquired, etc. I may have been doing it selfishly? I wanted to know the Truth (if that is selfish)?

Anyway, could you give me a clear picture of what "drawing" or being drawn looks like prior to regeneration? The verbiage indicates process. Process indicates movement. How is that dead unregenerate person moving toward Christ? What does it look like?

 

[Eddie L]

Hi EddieL,

Amen. I agree. In my own testimony before I came to an unwavering faith I sought and inquired, etc. I may have been doing it selfishly? I wanted to know the Truth (if that is selfish)?

Anyway, could you give me a clear picture of what "drawing" or being drawn looks like prior to regeneration? The verbiage indicates process. Process indicates movement. How is that dead unregenerate person moving toward Christ? What does it look like?

I don't believe that a dead, unregenerate sinner will move towards Christ in his heart, though God may be inserting circumstances into that person's life to setup for something later. To me it is important to realize that God is moving a person towards Christ outwardly via circumstances (using natural means) and inwardly (supernaturally, via the Holy Spirit). We believe that regeneration is the result of the inward call, but that regeneration won't be the first effort God makes on the part of that person. Regeneration will be the first time that man will make a sincere effort to move towards God.

Now, lots of people and lots of religions have people "working for God", or at least their idea of God, but all of those systems are essentially legalistic. Man is born with the machine of self-redemption, and self-redemption has pride as its primary motivation. Even the unregenerate can attempt to redeem themselves. Being drawn towards Christ as the Redeemer, our Source of Righteousness and Forgiveness, is NOT a function of legalism. It requires victory over pride, which means it needs a new nature: REGENERATION. I guess I'm saying that responding to a LAW to attempt to show that one is worthy of redemption is possible by anyone. Responding to the gospel, though, which essentially is a statement of one's lack of worthiness, requires regeneration.

 

[gmm4j]

Hey EddieL,

I don't believe that a dead, unregenerate sinner will move towards Christ in his heart, though God may be inserting circumstances into that person's life to setup for something later.

Is this “inserting circumstances into that person’s life”, setting them up for something later, a part of the drawing?

To me it is important to realize that God is moving a person towards Christ outwardly via circumstances (using natural means) and inwardly (supernaturally, via the Holy Spirit).

I agree.

We believe that regeneration is the result of the inward call, but that regeneration won't be the first effort God makes on the part of that person.

I don’t see a special inward call only for the elect anywhere in Scripture, but we can take that up separately. What effects do the other efforts God makes on the part of that person actually have upon the person?

Regeneration will be the first time that man will make a sincere effort to move towards God.

If this is the case, then it seems that all previous efforts God may have made on the part of that person had absolutely no influence or impact, or draw upon him.

Now, lots of people and lots of religions have people "working for God", or at least their idea of God, but all of those systems are essentially legalistic. Man is born with the machine of self-redemption, and self-redemption has pride as its primary motivation. Even the unregenerate can attempt to redeem themselves. Being drawn towards Christ as the Redeemer, our Source of Righteousness and Forgiveness, is NOT a function of legalism.

I agree with this completely.

It requires victory over pride, which means it needs a new nature: REGENERATION.

This is why I’m asking what being drawn, being led by His kindness, or a sinner cooperating before regeneration looks like.

I guess I'm saying that responding to a LAW to attempt to show that one is worthy of redemption is possible by anyone.

True. I agree.

Responding to the gospel, though, which essentially is a statement of one's lack of worthiness, requires regeneration.

Is an unregenerate person unable to recognize his own lost and miserable state?

I hadn’t thought about this. Is this actually what you think?

Blessings!

 

[Eddie L]

Hey EddieL,

I don't believe that a dead, unregenerate sinner will move towards Christ in his heart, though God may be inserting circumstances into that person's life to setup for something later.

Is this “inserting circumstances into that person’s life”, setting them up for something later, a part of the drawing?

It is if we define "drawing" that way. In detailed conversations, some people use "drawing" to refer to an inward pulling of the heart. If that is what we mean by "drawing", then the answer to your question is "no". The need for clarification in communication is why Calvinists get more specific and refer to an outward and inward call.

We believe that regeneration is the result of the inward call, but that regeneration won't be the first effort God makes on the part of that person.

I don’t see a special inward call only for the elect anywhere in Scripture, but we can take that up separately. What effects do the other efforts God makes on the part of that person actually have upon the person?

I do see an inward call in Scripture, but if you prefer we can take that up separately. As to your question, the "other efforts God makes" sets up a backdrop within which the inward call will function. The circumstances set the stage and provide a context within which the changed heart will operate.

Regeneration will be the first time that man will make a sincere effort to move towards God.

If this is the case, then it seems that all previous efforts God may have made on the part of that person had absolutely no influence or impact, or draw upon him.

The previous efforts create history. They create the setting. As a believer, I know that every circumstance of my life has been a part of God's plan to conform me to Christ's image. That includes the circumstances before and after my rebirth.

Consider this example... I was a music major in college. I was a doped up and drunk jazz musician. Spiritually blind, I laughed and enjoyed the things I did that any free mind would have understood to be harmful to myself and others. Fifteen years later, after my rebirth, through circumstances occurring after my conversion, I became a drug-free, drunk on the Spirit instrumental worshiper, largely because of the degree of my sin as a young man. God used events prior to my rebirth to draw me into worship after my rebirth. I still have a whiskey bag today to remind me of how far He brought me. God is STILL using events from my youth that occurred before I knew Him to draw me towards Him today.

Everything God does in the life of an elect person has redemptive value, since the redemption of that person is God's plan. No moments are wasted.

It requires victory over pride, which means it needs a new nature: REGENERATION.

This is why I’m asking what being drawn, being led by His kindness, or a sinner cooperating before regeneration looks like.

The unregenerate will respond to any action of God on that person's life in exactly the way God has decreed that they will, but there will be no spiritual cooperation from the heart of a person until they are reborn.

Responding to the gospel, though, which essentially is a statement of one's lack of worthiness, requires regeneration.

Is an unregenerate person unable to recognize his own lost and miserable state?

They may be able to perceive there is a problem, but they certainly will not perceive the cure. An unregenerate person's response to a perceived need may be to "do X in order to receive Y". That's not a gospel response. That is a legalistic response.

I hadn’t thought about this. Is this actually what you think?

I'm not sure exactly what your asking, but I agree with everything I've posted.

 

[gmm4j]

Hey EddieL,

This is cool. I love it.

I was a music major in college. I was a doped up and drunk jazz musician. Spiritually blind, I laughed and enjoyed the things I did that any free mind would have understood to be harmful to myself and others. Fifteen years later, after my rebirth, through circumstances occurring after my conversion, I became a drug-free, drunk on the Spirit instrumental worshiper, largely because of the degree of my sin as a young man. God used events prior to my rebirth to draw me into worship after my rebirth. I still have a whiskey bag today to remind me of how far He brought me. God is STILL using events from my youth that occurred before I knew Him to draw me towards Him today.

I have to stop for awhile to get some work done. I will try to comment further tonight.

Blessings!

 

[gmm4j]

Hey EddieL,

You are in red…
Originally Posted by gmm4j
Hey EddieL,

I don't believe that a dead, unregenerate sinner will move towards Christ in his heart, though God may be inserting circumstances into that person's life to setup for something later.

Is this “inserting circumstances into that person’s life”, setting them up for something later, a part of the drawing?

It is if we define "drawing" that way. In detailed conversations, some people use "drawing" to refer to an inward pulling of the heart. If that is what we mean by "drawing", then the answer to your question is "no". The need for clarification in communication is why Calvinists get more specific and refer to an outward and inward call.

Oh, I am so confused. Will you please define "drawing" in reference to “Irresistible Grace” in TULIP. Please also indicate this drawing’s relationship to an inward call and regeneration. Are they the same thing? Is it a process?, One time draw?, one time call?, etc…

 

[gmm4j]

Hey EddieL,
You are in red…
Regeneration will be the first time that man will make a sincere effort to move towards God.

If this is the case, then it seems that all previous efforts God may have made on the part of that person had absolutely no influence or impact, or draw upon him.


The previous efforts create history. They create the setting. As a believer, I know that every circumstance of my life has been a part of God's plan to conform me to Christ's image. That includes the circumstances before and after my rebirth.

Consider this example... I was a music major in college. I was a doped up and drunk jazz musician. Spiritually blind, I laughed and enjoyed the things I did that any free mind would have understood to be harmful to myself and others. Fifteen years later, after my rebirth, through circumstances occurring after my conversion, I became a drug-free, drunk on the Spirit instrumental worshiper, largely because of the degree of my sin as a young man. God used events prior to my rebirth to draw me into worship after my rebirth. I still have a whiskey bag today to remind me of how far He brought me. God is STILL using events from my youth that occurred before I knew Him to draw me towards Him today.

Everything God does in the life of an elect person has redemptive value, since the redemption of that person is God's plan. No moments are wasted.
Okay. Previous efforts may create the setting, but there was no “drawing” toward Christ involved.
Again, awesome testimony!

 

[gmm4j]

Hey EddieL,
You are in red…

It requires victory over pride, which means it needs a new nature: REGENERATION.

This is why I’m asking what being drawn, being led by His kindness, or a sinner cooperating before regeneration looks like.

The unregenerate will respond to any action of God on that person's life in exactly the way God has decreed that they will, but there will be no spiritual cooperation from the heart of a person until they are reborn.

Okay. So again, there is no “drawing” toward Christ until they are reborn. It seems I’ve properly understood Calvinism’s Total Inability and the definition of Irresistible Grace appears to be misleading when it is said that the Spirit “draws” sinners.
Blessings!

 

[Foghorn]

Trying to clarify my line of questioning let me state: I am trying to find out how a dead wicked and evil natured, rebellious against God, person can make any type of step / decision / thought toward God by going to church, attempting to read Scripture, ask someone for prayer, etc. without being regenerated first.

brother, the mind is an idol factory. Therefore, there are all sorts of jesus's out there, and the only Jesus who is satisfying is the Christ.

There are many:

A Jesus of, prosperity,
Health,
wealth,
emotionalism,
well there are all sorts. The problem is, unless it is the Jesus of the bible, he dont satisfy, nor speak the words of life, so they eventually leave.

Now, some of these will be regenerated and others will not - I understand.

Ok.

But, why and how does a dead man respond to a preacher's invitation to go to church to learn more about God (your illustration)?

I must not be communicating well.
Let me ask you this, do you believe everyone who stays and listens to a preacher is saved? Or everyone in every church in the world is saved?

If not, then why are they there?

A dead man can respond to all sorts of invitations, many try different religions, Christianity is no exception.

As I understand Calvinism's Total Inability he should not be able to take even that step.

Total inability means that man is not able to savingly choose Christ or anything in the spiritual of his own. It does not mean he will not go to church or listen to a preacher.

Dead men don't move (at all) unless they are made to come alive.

I agree, Lazarus is a good example of that. Jesus had to say, "Lazarus, Come forth!" Now consider this in a spiritual sense. Man can walk around, listen, speak, think, etc...but as far as spiritual is concerned, he cannot even understand.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding Total Inability, but "Total" doesn't leave much wiggle room.

Blessings!

Hope this helps.

 

[Foghorn]

Trying to clarify my line of questioning let me state: I am trying to find out how a dead wicked and evil natured, rebellious against God, person can make any type of step / decision / thought toward God by going to church, attempting to read Scripture, ask someone for prayer, etc. without being regenerated first. Now, some of these will be regenerated and others will not - I understand. But, why and how does a dead man respond to a preacher's invitation to go to church to learn more about God (your illustration)? As I understand Calvinism's Total Inability he should not be able to take even that step. Dead men don't move (at all) unless they are made to come alive. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding Total Inability, but "Total" doesn't leave much wiggle room.

Blessings!

Consider also the parable of the sower. Seed fell on all sorts of ground, and for a brief time some looked as if they would produce fruit.
But only one type of ground produced fruit.

 

[Eddie L]

Hey EddieL,

You are in red…
Originally Posted by gmm4j
Hey EddieL,

I don't believe that a dead, unregenerate sinner will move towards Christ in his heart, though God may be inserting circumstances into that person's life to setup for something later.

Is this “inserting circumstances into that person’s life”, setting them up for something later, a part of the drawing?

It is if we define "drawing" that way. In detailed conversations, some people use "drawing" to refer to an inward pulling of the heart. If that is what we mean by "drawing", then the answer to your question is "no". The need for clarification in communication is why Calvinists get more specific and refer to an outward and inward call.

Oh, I am so confused. Will you please define "drawing" in reference to “Irresistible Grace” in TULIP. Please also indicate this drawing’s relationship to an inward call and regeneration. Are they the same thing? Is it a process?, One time draw?, one time call?, etc…

If we are talking about the inward call, then the drawing is essentially regeneration. By changing the heart of a person, God is irresistibly drawing that person to Christ.

If we aren't talking about the inward call, then it is very fair to say that everything that happens to an elect person is a part of irresistible grace, since every moment of the life of an elect person is a part of God's redemptive plan for that person. Many people are reluctant to refer to "grace" as something outside of the inward call, but I'm not, so long as we're clear about the context we are using.

Most of the time, a Calvinist will consider the inward call and regeneration to be synonyms.

 

[Eddie L]

Hey EddieL,
You are in red…

It requires victory over pride, which means it needs a new nature: REGENERATION.

This is why I’m asking what being drawn, being led by His kindness, or a sinner cooperating before regeneration looks like.

The unregenerate will respond to any action of God on that person's life in exactly the way God has decreed that they will, but there will be no spiritual cooperation from the heart of a person until they are reborn.

Okay. So again, there is no “drawing” toward Christ until they are reborn. It seems I’ve properly understood Calvinism’s Total Inability and the definition of Irresistible Grace appears to be misleading when it is said that the Spirit “draws” sinners.
Blessings!

I still don't see why you see it to be misleading, though you keep switching out "unregenerate sinner" for "sinner". The grace of God is exactly what irresistibly draws the elect to Christ.

 

[gmm4j]

EddieL (you are in red),

If we are talking about the inward call, then the drawing is essentially regeneration.

Okay. Drawing is essentially regeneration. Now we are getting somewhere. I don’t know how this can be, but at least we have a definition. So, when we go back to the 4th point of Calvinism where it says, “By means of this special call, the Spirit irresistibly draws SINNERS to Christ”, it could just as easily read, “By means of this special call, the Spirit irresistibly regenerates sinners.”

Whoops. I had to come back and edit the definition that I was trying to clarify because it is so confusing. I left "call" in it, that suggests an invitation and choice, which there is none. Let me try again. It would read, "By means of this special command to life the Spirit irresistibly regenerates sinners (I can then add drawing), enabling them to be drawn to Christ.

Then you say,

Most of the time, a Calvinist will consider the inward call and regeneration to be synonyms.

So, if I understand your statements correctly…
The inward call, irresistible drawing, and regeneration are all essentially the same (synonymous).

That would make the definition above read… “By means of irresistible regeneration the Spirit irresistibly regenerates sinners.” Or, “By means of an irresistible drawing the Spirit irresistibly draws sinners.” Or, “By means of an irresistible call the Spirit irresistibly calls sinners.” Or, “By means of irresistible drawing the Spirit irresistibly calls sinners.” And so on…

Whew. I don’t know why I was confused.

I still don't see why you see it to be misleading, though you keep switching out "unregenerate sinner" for "sinner". The grace of God is exactly what irresistibly draws the elect to Christ.

It is misleading because “draws” infers process while regeneration is a one-time event, and “call” infers an invitation and choice when there is none (if, as you say, inward call and regeneration are the same). To me, regeneration may be the result of a call and the beginning of a “drawing” process, but how they can be synonymous, I don’t know.

Maybe I should be a Calvinist. Here’s how the definition of Irresistible Grace should read…

Instead of, “By means of this special call, the Spirit irresistibly draws SINNERS to Christ” it should read, “By means of this special call, the Spirit irresistibly regenerates sinners enabling them to respond to Christ.” Very simply understood and is compatible with your understanding of Total Depravity. No drawing can take place until regeneration.

Blessings

 

[Eddie L]

Nope! Our being drawn to Christ is much more personal than just regeneration. Our natures may be changed in an instant, but our drawing is a process. The circumstances God ordained for you, and how the Spirit worked in you, is different than how it happened for me. It is intimate and personal and unique every time.

 

[gmm4j]

Hey EddieL,
I know what your saying (I think). As long as the drawing is after regeneration. If there is any type of "drawing" prior to regeneration it is not "toward' Christ, but is only for the sake of positioning you to accomplish the noble purposes He has for you once you are regenerated in Christ (which I believe you have suggested earlier). But, prior to regeneration you would always reject any "drawing" that would attempt to advance your rebellion "toward" Christ. Once regeneration takes place then the "drawing, the whooing, the convicting" will be effective, but according to the big "TI" (Total Inability), there can be no effect "toward" Christ until regeneration.

Boy I am sounding like a Calvinist! You let me keep arguing like this I just may convert.

 

[Arcoe]

Consider also the parable of the sower. Seed fell on all sorts of ground, and for a brief time some looked as if they would produce fruit.
But only one type of ground produced fruit.

What type of ground was that? Let's see.

Luke 8:15 -
But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

Those of the good ground are they, with an honest and good heart, hear the word and keep (obey) it; then they bring forth fruit with patience.

So, those with an honest and good heart, are the ones who positively respond to His drawing; those who hear the word and obey it. Here we have man doing his part, that is, obeying the word he has heard.

In the parable, we see the Lord drawing all with the word planted in each of their hearts; however, it is those who have an honest and good heart, without interference from Satan, riches, and cares of this world, who actually persevere and produce fruit.

The Lord draws men through His truth, for His truth is the Light which enlightens every man (John 1:9). What man does with this truth, determines whether he believes and is saved.

 

[Foghorn]

What type of ground was that? Let's see.

Yes, lets see.

Luke 8:15 -
But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

Amen!

Those of the good ground are they, with an honest and good heart, hear the word and keep (obey) it; then they bring forth fruit with patience.

Interesting. Would you be kind enough to point me to a passage in God's word that teaches a man who is unregenerate, (a lost sinner) is good? Point me to the teaching that the unsaved man is good.

So, those with an honest and good heart, are the ones who positively respond to His drawing; those who hear the word and obey it. Here we have man doing his part, that is, obeying the word he has heard.

So there are all sorts of good people in the world, and these are the ones who will respond positively? Again, show me the scriptures teaching man is good.

In the parable, we see the Lord drawing all with the word planted in each of their hearts; however, it is those who have an honest and good heart,

Again, scripture please?

without interference from Satan, riches, and cares of this world, who actually persevere and produce fruit.

So there are those in this world who Satan does not interfere with during the salvation process?
Why not? Could you point out this teaching as well? Thanks.

The Lord draws men through His truth, for His truth is the Light which enlightens every man (John 1:9).

I can agree with tis, since the gospel is the truth.

What man does with this truth, determines whether he believes and is saved.

Well lets back up a bit. Could you find scripture proof for the things I asked about? We have to get over that hump first.


Thanks.