Can a Christian sin and still be saved?

[Oldmantook]

If we say we have no sin, (present tense) we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. Those who believe they live a sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, absolute perfect life 100% of the time (exactly as Jesus lived) are suffering from a terminal case of self righteousness. (1 John 1:8-10)

So are you writing to agree with me? I agree with you that no one is without sin as I previously wrote.

To practice sin is habitual sin. Willful, habitual lifestyle. No repentance, just bring it on.
1 John 3:9 - No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Yes, no genuine Christian practice sin; those that do are of the devil (1 Jn 3:8).

1 John 1:6 - If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. Walking in darkness is descriptive of children of the devil. Walking in the light is descriptive of children of God. Only those who are saved/believers are in the light.

Walking in the light is indeed descriptive of the children of God. But if you are implying that believers can only walk in the light and are not capable of walking in darkness you would be incorrect. Verse 7 contains the little word IF. If John meant to say that believers can only walk in the light and never walk in darkness, he would have used the word "since." Instead he chose to use the word if - which indicates possibility, perhaps even probability, but certainly not certainty. Thus it is possible for believers to walk in darkness.

Your scriptural citations from Acts 26, 1 Cor 6 and Eph 5 confirm that the unsaved walk in darkness and the saved walk in the light. However, these verses do not address the fact that a saved person who walks in the light can at any time turn away and choose instead to walk in darkness. Again, 1 Jn 1:7 comes into play as this verse is a conditional sentence stating IF a believer is walking in the light.

*Compare with 1 John 3:10 - In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, (compare with 1 John 1:6 - does not practice the truth) nor is he who does not love his brother. *Notice that walks in darkness, hates his brother is connected to children of the devil.

1 John as are all the other epistles, is written to believers; not unbelievers. In v.10, "whoever" means anyone and everyone - including believers. Therefore a believer who does not practice righteousness is not of God. Furthermore, unbelievers are not regenerated and are not made righteous in the first place, so how can they be expected to practice righteousness? The warning in this verse can therefore only be directed at believers who are warned to practice righteousness. Same thing with loving and hating his brother. "Brother" in this verse refers to the brethren - not unbelievers. Any brother who does not love his fellow brethren and hates his brother - is of the devil.

 

[JacksBratt]

Can a Christian sin and still be saved?

If he repents of his sin, yes.
If he remains impenitent, no.

OK, here it is again.... the catch 22....

A man, saved, goes to church, asks for forgiveness of his sins of the week.
Takes the cup and the bread of the Lords table.

Goes home..

The next day... his alarm doesn't go off, he is running late, spills his coffee on his shirt, zooms out of the lane and rolls through a four way stop at the end of the road.... speeds a little bit to make up for the lost time.... gets pulled over....behaves politely to the officer but is grumbling now... gets behind a slow driver (obviously not in a hurry ) This driver lets a pedestrian cross at the next intersection, thus our rushing Christian gets the next yellow light and as a result has to wait for a train at the crossing....
Speeds away cutting off another driver and could care less as he flips the bird.

Gets to work and settles into his work. Curses softly at the morning he has had...

At his lunch... he chokes on a bite of food and dies.... unrepentant...

You are saying that he is not saved?????

I am saying that even if he stole a car. Sped away from the Cop, Got another coffee from a drive through and left without paying..... ran over a kid in the works and then died..... still saved.

As someone said here before... "we are not sinless, only blameless"

This is because we are in the family of God, covered by the blood of Christ.....

If your kid gets mad and busts all your golf clubs because you wouldn't let them go to a friends party.... they are still your kid... your not going to kick them out.

We are the Lords family.

 

[Ken Rank]

Can a Christian sin and still be saved?

This was asked of me in a previous thread.

So, what say you?

Depends on your definition of sin Hammy. If you are using it as most Christians do... more broadly, then rebellion gets included in that word and I would have to say no. But if we use the Hebrew definition, I would say yes for sure! See, in Hebrew, chata'ah means unintentional or unknown sin. Avon is not intentional as rebellion would be... more being caught up in an emotion that causes us to turn away from God at least temporarily. Pesha is rebellion... deliberate sin. So no on the last one because that is a conscious and deliberate act against God. The other two are the result of a fallen state so that can be forgiven and will be.

 

[1213]

Can a Christian sin and still be saved?

This was asked of me in a previous thread.

So, what say you?

If saved means, the sins are forgiven and thus person avoids the wage of sin (death), person can be forgiven several times. But it is good to know, eternal life is for righteous and righteous person don’t want to sin.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23



He who does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. To this end the Son of God was revealed, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever is born of God doesn't commit sin, because his seed remains in him; and he can't sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the devil. Whoever doesn't do righteousness is not of God, neither is he who doesn't love his brother.

1 John 3:7-10

 

[JIMINZ]

I agree and have stated this in many posts dealing with this concept..


Show me a Christian that states that they no longer sin and I will show you someone who is either a liar or ignorant of their on going sin....

.
With a Christian who is dead unto the Law, how then does said Christian sin?

 

[JIMINZ]

Depends on your definition of sin Hammy. If you are using it as most Christians do... more broadly, then rebellion gets included in that word and I would have to say no. But if we use the Hebrew definition, I would say yes for sure! See, in Hebrew, chata'ah means unintentional or unknown sin. Avon is not intentional as rebellion would be... more being caught up in an emotion that causes us to turn away from God at least temporarily. Pesha is rebellion... deliberate sin. So no on the last one because that is a conscious and deliberate act against God. The other two are the result of a fallen state so that can be forgiven and will be.

.
The Bible is the Inerrant, Infallible, Inspired word of God.

This is what the Bible itself says sin is, this is the only Definition which counts.

1Jn. 3:4
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Rom. 4:15
Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

 

[Ken Rank]

.
The Bible is the Inerrant, Infallible, Inspired word of God.

This is what the Bible itself says sin is, this is the only Definition which counts.

1Jn. 3:4
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Rom. 4:15
Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

Thanks for the English lesson... I was trying to show that Hebrew (our Messiah was Jewish) differentiates between unknown or unintentional sin and rebellion. Sin is breaking the Torah (law), breaking the commandments... but what you are not taking into consideration is intent. Was it intentional or deliberate? God cares, God differentiates... the language our messiah spoke (or at least the mindset he thought in) differentiates.

 

[JIMINZ]

Thanks for the English lesson... I was trying to show that Hebrew (our Messiah was Jewish) differentiates between unknown or unintentional sin and rebellion. Sin is breaking the Torah (law), breaking the commandments... but what you are not taking into consideration is intent. Was it intentional or deliberate? God cares, God differentiates... the language our messiah spoke (or at least the mindset he thought in) differentiates.

.
Scripture?

 

[doctorwho29]

I really don't know why this is such a big debate. We sin but Jesus puts a new spirit in us, a repentant spirit. We now want to do better and work towards it. We still sometimes stumble but there is grace and we try to do better. Paul said he struggled to do good and found himself instead doing evil but he was obviously saved.

 

[JacksBratt]

.
With a Christian who is dead unto the Law, how then does said Christian sin?

I'm not sure that I understand your question.

Are you saying that since we are Christians, we are outside any law and therefore cannot sin?
So, if we rob a store, or look at a member of the opposite sex, lustfully, that we are not guilty of any sin due to the fact that we are above or outside the law and the law does not apply to us?

 

[BornAgainBride]

Can a Christian sin and still be saved?

This was asked of me in a previous thread.

So, what say you?

The Bible teaches us that Christ saved us OUT of slavery to sin. If we are willing to accept the cross He is handing us in Mt. 16:24-27, die to self, flesh, and sin, and walk in the newness of Life with Him, we should not be abiding in sin. Particularly not sins of the flesh, as if we "live in the flesh, you will die". Rom. 8:13. See also Gal. 5:19-21.

 

[dreadnought]

Can a Christian sin and still be saved?

This was asked of me in a previous thread.

So, what say you?

One has to understand salvation to understand the answer to this question.

What is salvation? Well, did the Lord create us so that he could send us to hell forever?

But the Lord will discipline us, and his discipline can be quite severe.

 

[Ken Rank]

.
Scripture?

Sorry... I don't just give answers, that, to me, is one of the problems with Christianity. We give answers, we don't teach people how to find answers. Here are the three Hebrew words... just go look them up...

The Hebrew word we translate as sin is chata'ah... the lexicons define it as "missing the mark" but don't take intent into consideration which is what you find when it is used during the sacrifices... all of which point to various aspects of Yeshua's work. Chata'ah is aiming at the target (God's righteousness) and desiring to hit it but simply missing from time to time because we exist in a fallen state. Avon is usually defined as iniquity of transgression but is revealed as one aiming at the mark who gets sidetracked by an emotional reaction and turns from the target God desires him to aim at. He returns to the target once he calms down. Pesha is rebellion... knowing the target God desires and deliberately aiming at another.

 

[Ken Rank]

.
With a Christian who is dead unto the Law, how then does said Christian sin?

"Dead to the Law" doesn't mean we don't follow commandments... it means we are dead the SENTENCE of DEATH that the law proclaims. Messiah didn't nail the commandments to the cross, he nailed our guilty verdict which is from the law but not the only aspect of the law. We treat it all as one just as fast as we insist that words only have one meaning. We need to broaden our perspective... of course... our fear based religious culture says we can't broaden anything without being bewitched. So... we keep dividing over minutia instead.

 

[St_Worm2]

What do you make of Philemon 15, where "αἰώνιον" clearly does not mean "forever" as in "without end"? Clearly Paul was speaking of the "life-time" of Philemon.

Hi Filos, context is everything, yes In the case of Philemon and Onesimus in v15, I believe αἰώνιος could mean one of two things.

1. In its most pedestrian sense it could mean that Oneismus is back "for good" (NIV) or "permanently" (HCSB), which is the only sense in which αἰώνιος, translated as "forever", is possible for two mortal human beings outside of Christ and/or ...

2. That Onesimius, who now, as a new Christian, is something far more to Philemon than he was before he ran away from him. This would mean that αἰώνιος ("forever") is speaking not only of this life, but of the age to come as well. As "brothers in Christ", his return to Philemon would carry that sense of αἰώνιος as well (now AND forevermore).​

Considering the context, which stresses God's direct involvement and the fact that Oneismus' departure was meant for good, not evil, I believe the latter is the intended meaning of St. Paul.

That said, it seems clear to me that however one chooses to understand the context of v15, translating αἰώνιος as "forever" is correct/best in all cases.

Question for you, in verses like John 3:16 and John 5:24, how do you believe the Lord intended us to understand αἰώνιος?

Thanks!

Yours and His,
David

Genesis 50
20 You meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result.​

 

[Fílos-tou-Iisou]

Hi Filos, context is everything, yes In the case of Philemon and Onesimus in v15, I believe αἰώνιος could mean one of two things.

1. In its most pedestrian form it means that Oneismus is back "for good" (NIV) or "permanently" (HCSB), which is the only sense that αἰώνιος, translated as "forever", is possible for two mortal human beings outside of Christ and/or ...

2. That Onesimius, who now, as a new Christian, is something far more to Philemon than he was before he ran away from him, would mean αἰώνιος ("forever"), not only in this life, but in the age to come as well. As "brothers in Christ", his return would carry that sense αἰώνιος as well.​

Considering the context, which stresses God's direct involvement and the fact that Oneismus' departure was meant for good, not evil, I believe the latter is the intended meaning of St. Paul.

That said, it seems clear to me that however one chooses to understand the context of v15, translating αἰώνιος as "forever" is correct/best in all cases.

Yours and His,
David

Genesis 50
20 You meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result.​

I doubt that anyone would consider Paul's words here as meaning "eternally", but would be a reference to his earthly life.

The use of "αἰώνιος" at the time the New Testament Books were written, has its "limited" duration, as can be seen when used by the Jewish historian Josephus, in his Antiquities, Book VII, chapter 14, sec. 5, where he says: "This he charged Zadok the high priest, and Nathan the prophet, to do, and commanded them to follow Solomon through the midst of the city, and to sound the trumpets, and wish aloud that Solomon the king may sit upon the royal throne forever (αἰώνιος), that so all the people may know that he is ordained king by his father". Its meaning can be seen from the words that follow, "they set Solomon upon the mule, and brought him out of the city to the fountain, and anointed him with oil, and brought him into the city again, with acclamations and wishes that his kingdom might continue a long time".

While I do believe that the Bible does teach that both "life" for the Righteous, and "death" for the unrighteous are both equally "eternal", as clearly taught in Matthew 25:46. I do not think that it is necessary that we look only to word meaning to determine the correct meaning of what the Bible teaches. It can be helpful, but we must not be tied to this.

 

[St_Worm2]

I doubt that anyone would consider Paul's words here as meaning "eternally", but would be a reference to his earthly life.

For what it's worth, here are excerpts from just three of my commentaries (see, in particular, the words I've underlined):

15. The marvelous providence of God is in view in this verse. Onesimus’ departure eventuated in his salvation in Christ. Now he returns to Philemon for the duration of this life, with the happy prospect of spending eternity in heaven with Philemon and all other believers. This does not mean that Onesimus never would have been saved if he had not run away. But God in His providence did turn his evil around for good. ~Hindson, E. E., & Kroll, W. M. (Eds.). (1994). KJV Bible Commentary (p. 2528). Nashville: Thomas Nelson.

15. Is he [St. Paul] saying that Philemon will have Onesimus back - "permanently" (HCSB) or "for good" (NIV) - ["forever"] in the sense that Onesimus will return as a willing, “useful” slave for as long as Philemon wants? Or is Paul saying that Philemon will have Onesimus back “eternally” in the sense that they now share a faith that gives them, together, eternal life? This latter view is, we think, by far the more preferable. It is not Onesimus’s usefulness as a slave that Paul stresses in his recitation of events in vv. 8–14, but Onesimus’s new status as a Christian. And this is just the point reinforced by v. 16: Philemon will have Onesimus back “as a brother.” Moreover, it would be a bit odd for Paul to suggest that God’s purpose in the separation of Philemon and Onesimus was that so the former could have permanent possession of his slave. But it makes good sense to see Paul attributing to God the circumstances that have led to Onesimus’s conversion and to the prospect of his “eternal” fellowship with Philemon. ~Moo, D. J. (2008). The letters to the Colossians and to Philemon (pp. 418–421). Grand Rapids, MI: William B. Eerdmans Pub. Co.

15. Paul asks Philemon not only to welcome Onesimus back, but to restore him to service. While not intending to mitigate the guilt of Onesimus, Paul suggests that God’s providence was at work. He tells Philemon that perhaps he was for this reason parted from you for a while that you should have him back forever, as a believer sharing the same eternal life. ~MacArthur, J. F., Jr. (1992). Philemon (p. 221). Chicago: Moody Press.​

The use of "αἰώνιος" at the time the New Testament Books were written, has its "limited" duration, as can be seen when used by the Jewish historian Josephus, in his Antiquities, Book VII, chapter 14, sec. 5, where he says: "This he charged Zadok the high priest, and Nathan the prophet, to do, and commanded them to follow Solomon through the midst of the city, and to sound the trumpets, and wish aloud that Solomon the king may sit upon the royal throne forever (αἰώνιος), that so all the people may know that he is ordained king by his father". Its meaning can be seen from the words that follow, "they set Solomon upon the mule, and brought him out of the city to the fountain, and anointed him with oil, and brought him into the city again, with acclamations and wishes that his kingdom might continue a long time".

While I do believe that the Bible does teach that both "life" for the Righteous, and "death" for the unrighteous are both equally "eternal", as clearly taught in Matthew 25:46. I do not think that it is necessary that we look only to word meaning to determine the correct meaning of what the Bible teaches. It can be helpful, but we must not be tied to this.

I agree with you, but I think you would also agree with me that "forever", as it is commonly understood in this world (not simply in the Biblical sense), rarely has "the age to come" as part of its intended meaning. IOW, "forever" refers to something that goes on forever .. in this life.

Oldmantook's argument that αἰώνιος only means "forever" if certain conditions are met, IOW, that it actually means "probationary" rather than "eternal" life in the case of verses like John 3:16 or John 5:24, is what I was objecting to. I used "temporal" in that limited and specific sense in my reply to/argument against what he had just said, but I appreciate you pointing out what you did (as I will now and αἰώνιος ["forevermore" .. in this life anyway] do my best to make what I mean a little clearer ).

Yours and His,
David

 

[JIMINZ]

I'm not sure that I understand your question.

Are you saying that since we are Christians, we are outside any law and therefore cannot sin?
So, if we rob a store, or look at a member of the opposite sex, lustfully, that we are not guilty of any sin due to the fact that we are above or outside the law and the law does not apply to us?

.
Are you saying, you don't know what it means to the Christian, to be dead unto the Law?

Or is it, you don't know that you as a Christian, are dead unto the Law?

 

[Emmy]

Dear Hammster. Yes, a Christian can still sin while saved, we live in an imperfect world. But once we are saved, we are always trying to be without sin. Jesus our Saviour told us, " the first and great Commandment is: Love God with all thy heart, with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. The second is like it, love thy neighbour as thyself." God is Love, and God wants loving sons and daughters. Love is also very catching, we just ask God, then we thank God and share all love and compassion with all around us.
The Bible tells us: start giving up all unloving and unkind words and start loving and caring. God is Love, and love will always be the winner. We cannot sin and still be saved, but we can ask God for forgiveness and start loving and caring again. God will know our hearts, and God LOVES us. Let us keep trying to follow Jesus back to God, Jesus died that we might live. Jesus is THE WAY. Why not give it all a try? Love is what God wants from us, love and compassion, and joy as well. I say this with love, Hammster. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.

 

[Dave-W]

I asked my Great Grandfather a question like this one 50+ years ago. He was perhaps the most devout Christian that I have ever known and if it means anything, he was a Baptist. Anyway, he told me that if we keep sinning the same sin over and over, that God will not forgive us. I told his daughter, my Great Aunt, what he said maybe 25 years ago and she was also a Baptist. However, she said that she did not believe that Great Grampa's answer agreed with the Scriptures. I hope that my Great Aunt was correct, for if not, many Christians are in deep trouble.

Your aunt was correct, not your great grandfather. Our Lord says to forgive 70 x 7, and if you look at the parallel passage in the other gospels, you will find that is for the same offense in a single day. If we are expected to forgive that often for the same repeated offense, how much more with our Lord forgive us?