I think the parable is speaking of hearing God's word and in particular hearing the Gospel. The seed is called the word of God; it is never referred to in the parable as salvation.
Jesus says we must be born again in order to enter the Kingdom of God (See John 3:3, John 3:5).
Peter says that we are born again of the incorruptible seed (Which is the Word of God).
23 "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
24 For all flesh
is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you." (1 Peter 1:23-25).
You said:
It is wrong doctrine to assert that the "seed" refers to salvation when it is never referred to as such in Christ's own explication of his parable.
No. Again, Luke 8:12 point blank tells you that is about salvation.
"Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts,
lest they should believe and be saved." (Luke 8:12).
You said:
We are told in Matthew 13 that they hear the word with joy but have no root in themselves. Luke says pretty much the same thing. What do they hear? Salvation? That is neither stated nor implied in the parable. Christ says they hear the "word of God." Just any words of God? Or is Jesus speaking of the Gospel message of the kingdom of God he has been constantly preaching? In light of his preaching on "the good news of the kingdom of God" (Lu. 8:1), it seems very likely to me that Christ is referring to this when he speaks of the "seed" in his parable. But both Matthew and Luke write that Jesus said that those upon whom the seed of the word of God, the Gospel, fell received it with joy but that seed did not take root in them. How is this made to be a conversion experience? How, if the Gospel did not take root in them, were these joyful hearers of the Gospel saved? Well, Christ never says they were saved! Instead, his description of merely emotional listeners in whom the Gospel did not take root gives us very good grounds to quite the opposite!
The seed that fell by the way side was clearly an unbeliever because the devil took the seed that was sown in their heart. This is not the case for the other seeds. For they believed. Also, the seed also implies life in the parable. Jesus says my words are spirit and they are life (John 6:63).
You said:
Actually, Scripture tells us that Jesus doesn't just equate to life, he is life itself! (Jn. 14:6; Phil. 1:21; 1Jn. 5:11, 12)
Nowhere am I discounting the fact that Jesus is life. But His words are life, too (John 6:63).
Jesus says, "If ye continue in my word,
then are ye my disciples indeed;" (John 8:31).
The pharisees did not have God's word in them, it is why they seeked to kill Jesus.
For Jesus said, "I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you." (John 8:37).
You said:
Wow. This is absolutely not what Christ said! It is amazing how blind you are to the eisegesis in which you're engaging! You are reading your view into the passage rather than drawing it out of the passage! All that Christ's word allow us to assert about the second sort of hearer in his parable is what I've already pointed out (emotional hearer, seed took no root). Whatever the hearer fell away from it was not salvation. I have already explained in detail to another poster what it was that the second hearer fell away from. See those posts for my explanation.
First, thank you for the insult in saying I am blind in regards to knowing this text. I will rejoice in God my Savior for the insult. Second, you said, I quote:
"This is absolutely not what Christ said!" ~ By: Aiki.
Yet, I simply had given you a snippet quote from Luke 8:13.
"...for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away." (Luke 8:13).
Okay, this verse says they believe for a while and in time of temptation they fall away.
How do you think it does not say that?
You said:
Says who? It is about broken fellowship, and the enduring love of the father, not about being dead or alive.
(a) The sower is the Son of man (Matthew 13:37).
(b) The seed is the Word of God (Luke 8:11).
But your error here is that salvation is not tied to having fellowship with Christ.
However, there are several pieces of Scripture that tell us that you cannot be out of fellowship with Christ (God) and be saved.
#1.
1 John 5:12 says He that has the Son has life and He that does not have the Son does not have life. Life is associated with eternal life or salvation.
#2.
John 17:3 says eternal life is in knowing the one true God, Jesus Christ. Knowing implies a fellowship. So if you don't know Jesus, then you don't have life (Salvation).
#3.
Romans 8:9 says if he a man does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to him.
#4.
Psalms 73:27 says God will destroy all those who abandon Him (or go a whoring from Him).
#5.
John 15:6 says if a man does not abide in Him, he is cast forth and burned.
#6.
1 John 1:7 says if we walk in the Light as He is in the Light, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin.
#7.
Romans 11:21-22 says if you do not continue in his goodness you will be cut off. For if God spared not the natural branches (i.e. the Jews), take heed that he can do the same to you (i.e. Gentile believers). The analogy here is that you are branch and Christ is the tree. We need to continue in Christ's righteousness or goodness, not our own righteousness or goodness, or we will be cut off because of unbelief.
#8.
2 Corinthians 13:5 says,
"Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates."
You said:
And as I said, at no point was he actually dead. The father's remark about his son being dead was purely figurative. They were separated from one another and their fellowship with each other broken and in this respect his son was dead to him, but their fundamental relationship to each other as father and son remained quite intact.
Jesus says my words are spirit. So Jesus spoke in spiritual terms many times. This led to many misunderstanding what Jesus was really saying. Nicodemus thought he was talking in physical terms about being born again through his mother's womb. The 70 disciples stopped following Jesus because they thought he talking about physically drinking blood.
You said:
And so? The Prodigal was not really dead. He was separated from his father, but still quite alive. So what, then, does any of what you've written here got to do with the situation between the father and son? The son was not a corpse invited to dinner or to playtime at the park.
Now you are switching the goal posts.
Your point was spiritual and now you want to make it physical.
You implied that the Son is still a Son spiritually.
You are implying that certain words in the parable are spiritual.
I am saying that the words in the parable are SPIRITUAL, too.
But you are only selecting that part of the words you choose to be spiritual to make your belief work.
#1. The son is said by the Father to have been dead (this is in reference to spiritual death).
#2. The son is said by the Father that he is alive again (this is in reference to spiritual life).
You said:
No, all it means is that a sheep can wander. And when it does, the shepherd does not disown the sheep, but goes out looking for it. And he does this because, as Jesus explained, the sheep is his - which is something you're carefully ignoring.
No. The word "lost" is used.
We see elsewhere in Scripture that the word "lost" is associated with having to do with not having salvation.
"For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost." (Luke 19:10).
"But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:" (2 Corinthians 4:3).
Jason0047 said:
There are plenty of verses in Scripture that teach that sin is separation from God.
You said:
Yes, there are. So what? What does this have to do with our discussion, exactly?
Let's not be cute. When I say that sin is not separation from God I am saying that it is a separation from God both in fellowship and in their salvation. They have no salvation if they sin and do not repent.
Sin is spiritual death. This is evident by the first lie that the devil uses in the Garden with Eve, when he said to her, "Yea, ye shall not surely die." (Genesis 3:4).
Peter said to Simon to repent of his wickedness and pray that he would be forgiven (Acts of the Apostles 8:22).
You cannot be saved and yet also not be forgiven.
Matthew 6:15 says he that does not forgive will not be forgiven by the Father.
You said:
I not only have seen these warnings, I have memorized a number of them. I've no idea why you assume I am unaware of them. Clearly, what you believe you understand of my thinking is in serious error.
But they are not really true warnings for you, though. If Matthew 5:22, Matthew 6:15, Luke 9:26, and 1 John 3:15 do not equate with spiritual death for you if you were to disobey these truths in Scripture. You do not believe that a believer's disobedience to God's laws leads to spiritual death. So there is nothing to really worry about anything. Hence, why it would not be a warning for you. Ultimately there is no real danger. Break in fellowship? Who cares right? A believer has got your golden ticket to Heaven! It does not really matter how one lives in this life. Just believe on Jesus and go back to our old life.
But it doesn't really work like that.
You said:
Really? I don't recall reading that the sheep repented. Where's that written, exactly?
The Parable of the Lost Sheep
1 "Then drew near unto him all the publicans and sinners for to hear him.
2 And the Pharisees and scribes murmured, saying, This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them.
3 And he spake this parable unto them, saying,
4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
5 And when he hath found
it, he layeth
it on his shoulders, rejoicing.
6 And when he cometh home, he calleth together
his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.
7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance." (Luke 15:1-7).
You said:
Oh? The lost sheep didn't repent.
See Luke 15:7. It relates to Luke 15:1-6.
You said:
Neither did the lost coin.
Really? Jesus relates the REJOICING in finding of a lost coin (Luke 15:8-9) with the REJOICING in heaven when a sinner repents (Luke 15:10).
You said:
The only one in the three parables who did any repenting was the Prodigal Son. Quite plainly, then, you're way off base in your thinking on these parables.
No. That is not true.
In the Parable of the Lost Sheep, Jesus says,
"I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth." (Luke 15:7).
In the Parable of the Lost Coin, Jesus says,
"Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth." (Luke 15:10).
You said:
But we don't. We don't see repentance in all three parables.
Not true. Please see above verses I gave to you.
You said:
We see only a searching for what is lost in the first two. What all three parables do communicate, though, is a theme of separation and then reunion and the joy that reunion brings. Why isn't this obvious to you?
Again, see the verses above.
You said:
Well, you have shared with me your views on this matter a few times and each time - as now - you have demonstrated just the opposite of what you say you can demonstrate all day from Scripture! I admire your confidence, but shudder at how enormously misplaced it is.
Thank you for the insult again. I will rejoice in God may Savior.
Anyways, may God's love shine upon you this fine day.
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