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Featured Can a Christian lose his/her salvation?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Quasar92, Jun 24, 2017.

  1. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    ,"

    John 3:36 (ASV) "He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him."

    Note how the verb "believe" in these two verses is CONTRASTED to "disobedient"/"obeyeth not". Therefore believing is a form of obedience. So if a Christian quits believing, casts aside his faith (Hebrews 3:12; 1 Timothy 4:1) he enters a state of disobedience/obeyeth not. This is just one form of disobedience the Christian can commit. And if he remains impenitently in this lost state of disobedience he will be lost.

    Also, God does not leave men in the dark as to whether or not one is saved or not, ie, a Christian or not.[/QUOTE]


    Jn.3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

    18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God"


    The promise Jesus made for us in vs 16, together with that in Jn.10:27-29 is powerful enough fr those who read it and believe, but seldom ever will there be anyone rescind his/her belief in Jesus, once in His fold. In addition, I fully believe He is at work to keep us in His fold as well.

    Another point is the one made by Charles Stanley, in His book, Eternal Security, when he wrote, "Behavior has nothing whatever to do with our salvation." Yhink about that one for moment.


    Quasar92
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2017
  2. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Thank you and may God bless you too.


    Quasar92
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2017
  3. aiki

    aiki Regular Member

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    Well, I get that it makes sense to you to read the parable in this way, but this doesn't mean it must be read this way by everyone else. I know of many people who have had a strong emotional response to the Gospel, thinking that the strength of their response is a testament to the genuineness of their conversion. But emotion - even the strong, positive emotion of joy - is not what saves anyone. Many times I have witnessed people going up during an "altar call" to "get saved," weeping and confessing their sin, only to lapse in time (usually when the emotion has waned) back into the godless life they once lived. They believed - for a while - but when the pressures of life and old habits test the reality of their profession of faith, they discover that strong emotion cannot substitute for a mind fully persuaded, and a heart truly convicted, and a will totally submitted to the truth of the Gospel.

    What did Jesus mean about testing the unsaved? Well, Jesus himself explains:

    Matthew 13:20-21
    20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy;
    21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.


    What is tested? The root of the person's belief in the Gospel. As Jesus says in the passage above, tribulation and persecution arise and reveal the Gospel has not taken root in the man and so he "stumbles," or "falls away," as Luke puts it.

    How do the unsaved fall away? As I've already explained, they fall away, not from salvation, but from an emotional response to the Gospel.
     
  4. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    The seed is the Word of God in the Parable of the Sower (Luke 8:11).
    The soil is the condition of the heart.
    The first seed is clearly an unbeliever because the wicked one took out the seed out of the soil before it could be sown.
    Yet, this is not the case with the other seeds.
    The other seeds did start to grow.
    However, two of them failed to overcome because one seed was choked by thorns and the other seed could not grow beyond the rocks. This suggests that LIFE was growing in them. LIFE is salvation. What stopped the seed from growing was the obstacle of sin that they chose to be taken by. Hence, why they fell away. Yes, they had no root in God's Word. They did not strengthen themselves in God's Word (i.e. the Holy Scriptures) so as to withstand these temptations. So they fell away. For Paul says that there are those who are immature in the Word of God (i.e. they can only receive the milk of the Word). But Paul says we have to mature and receive the meat of God's Word. Milk drinkers of God's Word can fall away easily. It does not mean they were not saved at one time.

    The Parable of the Prodigal Son clearly tells us that a believer can go from a saved state and to a lost state and then back again to a saved state. For when the son returned home to his father, his father had said that his son was dead and is alive again two times. This parable is speaking in spiritual terms of course.


    ...
     
  5. Rodo7777777

    Rodo7777777 Member

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    I spent 30+ years in habitual sin, and God was with me every step of the way. And Now I am free, after God met with me.

    It is not possible to be born the first time (in the flesh) and then be unborn.

    Nor is it possible to be born from above (spiritual birth) and be unborn.

    These ideas come from in my opinion, not understanding our Father (Daddy) and His character and Attributes.

    But let me give you a scriptural response as an example, of the most heinous sin, and God using the sin to achieve His purposes...

    God controls everything, even evil. No matter how uncomfortable that makes us it is true. Let me give you an example.

    One day David says to God. "I want to build you a house." God says "No!" "But you will have a son in the future who will build me my house".

    Is this true?

    Yes it is, and who was this promised son, this son of prophecy, this future son, this spoken word son, this god prophesied son.

    This son, was Solomon… Now watch God fulfill his own word of promise, His own prophetic word to David.

    One day David was overlooking his kingdom, and while on his rooftop, he sees a beautiful woman, bathing herself. David says "who is that woman" his servant says that is Bathsheba, the wife of your servant Uriah. David says "get her for me".

    Then they have relations, (fornicate and commit adultery)…And from this union surrounded by sin and deceit, comes the God promised, prophesied, spoken word, son, named Solomon.

    So do we have a problem with God using sin to complete His words? Do we have a problem with God creating evil for His purposes?

    How about Moses, Moses kills a man, so he can meet God at the burning bush. Consider this man that Moses killed, this man was at the right place at the right time. What if this man had chosen to take a different path to work, or had an extra cup of tea, or went to visit the pharaoh that day. No that man had to be just at the right place at the right time to fulfill God's plan and promises.
    Consider Romans CH 9:

    Paul sets about with a wonderful description of God's plan and sovereignty. The Jews understand Paul so well they scream "Who then can resist His will, and why does God then blame us".

    And what does Paul say to them as a reply. Does Paul say "My brothers I am so sorry, you have misunderstood my point about God's sovereignty".

    NO! Paul retorts, "Who are you to answer back to God".
     
  6. aiki

    aiki Regular Member

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    Oh, I don't know. You're doing all right with them, I think.

    Your injury? How did it make you a horrible person? Who or what changed your life around and how?

    I agree. Sometimes God's children must be allowed to taste the full sourness of their sin before they can be persuaded to abandon it. God uses the carrot as much as possible (Ro. 2:4), but, if necessary, He will also employ the stick (Heb. 12:7-11).

    I see.

    Proverbs 27:2
    2 Let another man praise you, and not your own mouth...


    But you can show that a person who claims sinless perfection is prideful without drawing attention to your own humility.

    Oh, I don't know...That depends upon the attitude and purpose for which you declare your own humility. Really, any boasting about oneself, is, I think, too much. What does Paul say?

    1 Corinthians 1:29-31
    29 that no flesh should glory in His presence.
    30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God--and righteousness and sanctification and redemption--
    31 that, as it is written, "He who glories, let him glory in the Lord."


    I don't mind you, either.

    I don't use fallacies. I try to avoid them as much as possible. And when I see someone using a logical fallacy, I draw their attention to it. Do you want to go on in an illogical, fallacious fashion? Would it not be better to recognize when you have engaged in fallacious thinking than to continue on in it obliviously? I think so! If another person's knowledge of logical fallacies intimidates you so much that you put them on your "ignore" list, maybe it's time to make yourself a more precise and logical thinker so you can ignore the "ignore" button.

    This is just a weak way of excusing bad thinking. Making those who call out your logical fallacies the ones at fault, rather than your own poor thinking, is a sure way to blind yourself in the search for truth.

    What may be true of some is not necessarily true of all. Sometimes when a person points out a fallacy in another person's logic, it is because there is actually a fallacy there! It's been my experience that those who object most strongly to being shown to be fallacious are those who are most frequently guilty of fallacious thinking.

    I am nothing like your friend - at least in respect to the things you've mentioned here.
     
  7. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    Was this about the Potter and the clay ?
     
  8. aiki

    aiki Regular Member

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    The way you've laid out how to understand the parable is not the only - or even, I think, the best - way to understand it. Jesus never once in explicating the parable of the Sower and Seed suggests that those who received the "seed" of the Gospel and then for various reasons never had it take root within them were actually saved. That's reading into the parable what isn't actually there. The first in the parable to receive the "seed" Jesus says never understood it at all and so it is snatched away by the devil (Matt. 13:19). This doesn't sound like a person who was saved. Not at all. The next person to receive the seed of the Gospel has an emotional response to it, but Christ says the seed did not take root in him and so when difficulty comes his way he immediately "stumbles." (Matt. 13:20, 21) Again, this doesn't sound like a saved person. The third person who receives the seed of the Gospel hears it, we are told by Christ, but has no other response to it. He doesn't understand what he has heard as the fourth and final person does. Instead, what he has heard is choked out of his life by the lure of riches and the cares of the World. Just going from Christ's description, there doesn't seem to be any good reason why we should think the third person in the parable is saved. The only one who has anything like a saving response to the seed of the Gospel is the final character in the parable who hears the word, understands it, and begins to bring forth corresponding fruit in his life. The parable of the Sower and the Seed doesn't appear, then, to have anything at all to tell us about whether or not a person can lose their salvation.

    Oh, ugh. What a twisting of the story! Was the Prodigal Son ever really dead? No, his father's description of him being "dead" was not literal but figurative. As in other places in Scripture, "dead" in this instance speaks to separation, to a loss of fellowship, not relationship. Was the Prodigal Son ever truly not his father's son? No. Even if he had died, the son would still have had the father that he had. Death cannot undo one's biological heritage. In light of these things, then, the story of the Prodigal Son, if anything, confirms OSAS and denies SAL!
     
  9. ChristianIssues

    ChristianIssues Newbie

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    Hello Aiki,

    "Falling away from an emotional response"??

    Surely you aren't serious.

    God bless,
    Mick
     
  10. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    No. Luke 8 says, "Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved." (Luke 8:12).

    No. The Prodigal Son says, "I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee." (Luke 15:18).

    In the previous two parables (i.e. the Parable of the Lost Sheep & the Parable of the Lost Coin) we see a correlation to Luke 15:18.

    In the Parable of the Lost Sheep: It said, "I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth." (Luke 15:7).

    So here we see a sinner repenting and great joy in Heaven. The prodigal son was willing to make a cry of repentance before Heaven and his Father.

    In the Parable of the Lost Coin, it says, "Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth." (Luke 15:10). So again, we see this theme continue. The angels of God in Heaven rejoice over one sinner that repents which then ties into the repentance of the Prodigal Son. For the prodigal son said he was willing to admit that he sinned against Heaven. Why would he say that? Surely, the prodigal son is repenting so as to restore His place with God the Father in Heaven (because of the parallel of the other two previous parables).


    ...
     
  11. Rodo7777777

    Rodo7777777 Member

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    "Who then can resist His will, and why does God then blame us".

    Concerns the 9th Ch of Romans and the fact that they understood Paul or Paul is showing us what he is meaning by this rhetorical question, who can then resist His will, meaning God is sovereign over ALL things.
     
  12. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    "...
    Webster says, “That is pernicious which works mischief or destruction.” This present age therefore is not content to perish in its own corruption, but seeks to drag all men with it down to its own inevitable destruction. The outstanding philosophy of religion of this present pernicious age is, that acceptance with Deity is by means of the good works of the individual. Every system of religion except that in the Bible bases salvation upon the good works of the worshipper. The Judaizers were part of this present evil age. Their system, not content with dragging down its own devotees to destruction, was attempting to pull down the Christian Church with it. Paul says that the substitutionary atonement of the Lord Jesus is that which will rescue the poor lost sinner from the clutches of the pernicious teaching of the Judaizers. According to the will of God and our Father. But Paul hastens to add that the act of Christ rescuing us is not according to our plan, or in proportion to our legal obedience or because of any quality in us, but according to the Father’s sovereign will which is the standard of all the process of redemption. This rescue therefore is according to the procedure prescribed by Him. All of which means that the salvation procured on the Cross for us by our Lord is to be received by faith aside from any merit of our own. We cannot earn what Christ procured for us. Salvation is given free, gratis, as a gift.
    Translation. Who gave Himself in behalf of our sins so that He might rescue us out from this present pernicious age, according to the will of our God and Father. ... " ... //

    from Galatians Expanded Greek Study by WUEST......
     
  13. Rodo7777777

    Rodo7777777 Member

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    ...[/QUOTE]

    I have to disagree, we have to look at this in a much more personal way...As if it happened to us, and our father. Not as a theological study.

    The son comes to his senses, runs to his father, BUT THE FATHER SEES HIM a LONG WAY OFF.

    "I start to recite all my failings, to my father, but it's as if he is not even listening, for I hear him shout over me, my son is home, get a calf, get clothes, fetch shoes, for my son is home, as He kisses my face."

    If we see it as this, the focus is on the father, not the son and his many sins. It's all about relationship.
     
  14. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Well, when you read Romans 9:1-13, you have to read it in terms of how Paul is talking to the Jews (Romans 9:3-6) and not all individuals and how he is trying to tell them that the purpose of Election of the Promises is thru the line of the Messiah with Jacob's line and not Esau's line. Romans 9:13 is not saying God literally loved Jacob and literally hated Esau as individuals (cf. Luke 14:26). Paul is using them as examples of how God was all powerful enough to know which family line to use so as to bring the Promised Messiah (i.e. Jesus). That is what "Election" here is talking about in Romans 9. It is not talking about individual "Election" but it is talking about the "Election of the Promise" or the genealogical line that Jesus would come through. The Jews were claiming that they were saved based on being of the seed of Abraham and in keeping God's Laws. But they rejected their Messiah. God does not have to conform to old Jewish ways of thinking just because they rejected their Messiah. He will have mercy on whom He will's in the manner He will's with the Messiah that He has chosen (Which was Jesus Christ).

    Now, when you read Romans 9:14-16: Well, you have to realize that it is talking about God's plan of salvation with Jesus Christ being their Messiah of whom the Jews rejected. God is saying He will have mercy in the WAY God wants to do things and not according to Jewish thoughts or beliefs (Which one of their ways they considered a person to be right with God was through circumcision - See Romans 3:1).

    And when you read Romans 9:17-18: Well, you have to realize it is making a parallel. For there is a parallel being made of how God is Sovereign and just in setting up the Promised Line of the Messiah (i.e. by having mercy on whom He wills) versus raising up Pharaoh into power to show God's power. How was God's power shown in the life of the Pharoah? By God making the Pharoah wealthy? Not exactly. God allowed Pharoah to be raised up so that God's power was shown in the life of God's miracles being displayed such as the Ten plagues and the parting of the Red Sea. This is why Paraoah was raised up. It was so that God's power (or miracles) could be displayed (and proclaimed to all the Earth). Just as God had chosen the line of the Messiah so as to display His power (and proclaim such a thing to all the Earth). So this was not some kind of point to prove individual election but to prove the Election of the Promised Line of the Messiah (Who is Jesus Christ). For Jesus is the greatest miracle (of the best form of Election) that there is.

    Anyways, when you read on down to verse 24 (Romans 9:24), the point is clear what Paul is really talking about.

    I hope this helps, and may God bless you.


    ...
     
  15. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Again, why does the son bother to worry about confessing his sins to Heaven? It does not add up as you say or suggest. Also, the Parable of the Prodigal Son is the solution to your false notion on saying how "a believer cannot be unborn." Now, while it is true that people cannot be unborn, they can certainly most die in this life. In the Parable of the Prodigal Son we learn that the Father said of his son that he was dead and he is now alive again. This is speaking in spiritual terms because the son was willing to confess his sins to heaven.

    In fact, in James 5, we are told by James that if a fellow brother were to err from the truth (the faith), and if we were to convert them back to the faith (By getting them to repent to God or Christ), we are to know that we have saved a soul from spiritual death and we have helped to hide a multitude of their sins by getting them to return to the Lord.

    19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
    20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins." (James 5:19-20).

    In Acts of the Apostles 8:22, Peter tells Simon to repent of his wickedness in the hopes that he would pray to God so that He (the Lord) would forgive him.

    Jesus says repent or perish (Luke 13:3).

    I mean, the first lie by the devil to Eve is, "Yea, ye shall not surely die." (Genesis 3:4).

    So sin or the breaking of God's commands is still spiritual death.
    However, the devil would have you believe otherwise.



    ...
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2017
  16. NothingIsImpossible

    NothingIsImpossible Well-Known Member

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    Well I did grow up with health and learning issues. But I was a good christian. What set things off for my dark path was after I had 3 grand mal seizures in the time span of 3 years, the first caused TBI (Traumatic Brain Injury). I lost alot of mym memories from the past. Lost alot of my education. Started having severe migraines, vision issues, anxiety issues...etc.

    While that was part of it, the main part was christians (sadly enough) who instead of praying for me or encouraging me said things like "A true christian would not have such problems in life if they were really following the Lord!" or "You would be healed of these things if you really prayed enough or had enough faith!". Then we got into christians judging me because I couldn't work from the injury and they would say I was just lazy or they would use the bible about God will not provide to sluggards...et.

    Thats mainly what set me off. They didn't care that I was a good christian until that point. Or that I was mostly staying strong. All they seen was I had a trial(s) and thus was not a christian then. Obviously I realize it was still my choice to grow mad at God and everyone on the planet, but I just snapped with such negative evil judgemental attitudes.

    If not for this forum (and a exfiancees cousin) I would have never left that path and switched to this great path I am on now. I still have work to do and have flaws but I never give up no matter what.

    I can't argue with that. Thank you for correcting me. You are right.

    Sorry if I made it sound like that. Your nothing like that of course. :) As for the fallacies thing, the truth is I don't understand fallacies. I read them and what they are about but it might as well be in french. It may be the learning issues and brain injury that are stopping me from understanding it. Which is why I don't know how to respond to the words I heard
     
  17. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    While I disagree with you strongly on your belief of Eternal Security, my heart goes out to you for struggle with these kinds of believers. We should pray and love them in return (which I am sure you have done). Your situation reminds me of Job's friends in how they treated him. But the good thing was is that God corrected them. For nothing is impossible with God.

    Anyways, may the Lord's peace and love be with you greatly this fine today.


    ...
     
  18. aiki

    aiki Regular Member

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    Again, incredulity does not serve as an argument or an effective rebuttal.

    Both Matthew and Luke in their retelling of Christ's parable of the Sower and the Seed describe the second hearer of the word responding to what he has heard "with joy" (Matt. 13:20; Lu. 8:13). Sounds like an emotional response to me. Both Gospel writers also say that the second hearer "had no root" (Matt. 13:21; Lu. 8:13) which, it seems evident to me, means the seed of the word did not penetrate his mind and heart. As I said, his response to the "sown seed" was merely emotional. And, again, this does not sound in the least like a description of someone who was saved by what he had heard. So, then, the second hearer could not have fallen away from salvation. That is clearly reading into the passage what is not there. Now, I've explained this twice. If all you can muster as a response is more incredulity, then I'm just going to ignore your posts.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2017
  19. aiki

    aiki Regular Member

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    Yes. And? "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." (Ro. 10:17) This is not news to me. As the parable in question clearly indicates, only the last hearer truly believed in his heart the word of God that he heard.

    And so? No one is contesting the fact that the Prodigal Son sinned. What is in contention is the idea that, as a consequence of his sin, he was no longer his father's son and that this is an analogy to a child of God being saved and lost. But as I pointed out, at no point in the parable is the Prodigal ever not the son of his father.

    The whole substance of our argument is about whether or not our sin is powerful enough to undo God's salvation of us. I don't think so, and consequently, when I read the parables of the Lost Sheep and the Lost Coin I don't understand them to be teaching a saved-and-lost doctrine. Why does the shepherd search for the lost sheep? He tells us:

    Luke 15:6
    6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, 'Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!'


    At no point does the shepherd behave as though the lost sheep is not his sheep. And at the end of the parable he exclaims to his friends, "I have found my sheep which was lost!" The entire reason the shepherd sought the sheep was because it was his sheep! There is, then, no ground for a saved-and-lost reading of this parable.

    What theme is that? It can't be a saved-and-lost theme. The lost coin was searched for by the woman who had lost it because it belonged to her. It was no strange, unknown coin for which the woman looked, but her own lost coin. This, then, doesn't sound at all analogous to being an adopted child of God and then not.

    It seems evident to me that these two parables don't set the stage for the parable of the Prodigal Son in the way that you think they do. Rather than confirming your SAL view, they appear to me to sharply deflate it and confound the reading you're giving to the story of the Prodigal.
     
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