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Featured Can a Christian lose his/her salvation?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Quasar92, Jun 24, 2017.

  1. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Like what, for instance? Opinion will carry you nowhere without valid support. Too bad Charles Stanley is not present to support his views.


    Quasar92
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2017
  2. Karl.C

    Karl.C Member

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    Interestingly, A.Paul says "flesh and blood" can't inherent the kingdom of heaven.

    I'm in agreement with you if you mean "God doesn't reside in a building. But you raise an issue: we can isolate ourselves (mentaaly if not physically) and become introspect. There are times we might need "building up" and times when we can help someone over a stumbling block. That is what Church is meant for...and thats everybody's responsibily not just the priest/pastor...
     
  3. ChristianIssues

    ChristianIssues Newbie

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    This is a test and I don't know how to delete it.
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2017
  4. TheSeabass

    TheSeabass Well-Known Member

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    From Stanley's book "Eternal Security":

    "Even if a believer for all practical purposes becomes an unbeliever, his salvation is not in jeopardy" (Chapter 10, p. 93).

    "And last, believers who lose or abandon their faith will retain their salvation, for God remains faithful" (p. 94).

    "Christ will not deny an unbelieving Christian his or her salvation because to do so would be to deny Himself" (p. 94).

    From Stanley’s book Handbook for Christian Living:

    "You and I are not saved because we have enduring faith. We are saved because at a moment in time we expressed faith in our Lord (p. 190)."

    "Discipleship has nothing to do with whether you will go to heaven or not" (p. 505).

    Here's what others have written:

    Stamford, Texas, Baptist preacher, Sam Morris: "All the prayers a man may pray, all the Bibles he may read, all the churches he may belong to, all the services he may attend, all the sermons he may practice, all the debts he may pay, all the ordinances he may observe, all the laws he may keep, all the benevolent acts he may perform will not make his soul one whit safer; and all the sins he may commit, from idolatry to murder, will not make his soul in any more danger.…The way a man lives has nothing whatever to do with the salvation of his soul." (Do a Christian's Sins Damn His Soul?)

    Bill Foster, Baptist preacher in Louisville, KY commented: "If I killed my wife and mother and debauched a thousand women, I couldn't go to hell -- in fact, I couldn't go to hell if I wanted to. If on the judgment day, I should find that my loved ones are lost and should lose all desire to be saved, and should beg God to send me to hell with them, He couldn't do it" (The Weekly Worker, March 12, 1959).

    Newsweek magazine article (11/2/98) titled, “Sex, Sin and Salvation.” The sub-caption read: “To understand Clinton the president, you have to meet Bill the Baptist, a believer whose faith leaves plenty of license.” The writer was explaining how the president of our nation could appear so “religious” on one hand (often seen attending church on Sundays, Bible in hand), and yet so immoral at other times. There is considerable evidence that Clinton has had adulterous affairs with numerous women. Consider this statement:

    “Clinton’s troubled personal life — and his repeated verbal evasions — also bears a distinctive Baptist stamp. Like most Baptists, Clinton was taught that because he had been born again, his salvation is ensured. Sinning even repeatedly — would not bar his soul from heaven. . . As a born-again Baptist, however, the president believes that what he does in private is nobody’s business but the Lord’s.”
    Is "Once Saved -- Always Saved?" a Bible Doctrine?
     
  5. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Jesus says we must be born again in order to enter the Kingdom of God (See John 3:3, John 3:5).

    Peter says that we are born again of the incorruptible seed (Which is the Word of God).

    23 "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
    24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
    25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you." (1 Peter 1:23-25).

    No. Again, Luke 8:12 point blank tells you that is about salvation.

    "Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved." (Luke 8:12).

    The seed that fell by the way side was clearly an unbeliever because the devil took the seed that was sown in their heart. This is not the case for the other seeds. For they believed. Also, the seed also implies life in the parable. Jesus says my words are spirit and they are life (John 6:63).

    Nowhere am I discounting the fact that Jesus is life. But His words are life, too (John 6:63).
    Jesus says, "If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;" (John 8:31).
    The pharisees did not have God's word in them, it is why they seeked to kill Jesus.
    For Jesus said, "I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you." (John 8:37).

    First, thank you for the insult in saying I am blind in regards to knowing this text. I will rejoice in God my Savior for the insult. Second, you said, I quote:

    "This is absolutely not what Christ said!" ~ By: Aiki.​

    Yet, I simply had given you a snippet quote from Luke 8:13.

    "...for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away." (Luke 8:13).

    Okay, this verse says they believe for a while and in time of temptation they fall away.
    How do you think it does not say that?

    (a) The sower is the Son of man (Matthew 13:37).
    (b) The seed is the Word of God (Luke 8:11).

    But your error here is that salvation is not tied to having fellowship with Christ.

    However, there are several pieces of Scripture that tell us that you cannot be out of fellowship with Christ (God) and be saved.

    #1. 1 John 5:12 says He that has the Son has life and He that does not have the Son does not have life. Life is associated with eternal life or salvation.

    #2. John 17:3 says eternal life is in knowing the one true God, Jesus Christ. Knowing implies a fellowship. So if you don't know Jesus, then you don't have life (Salvation).

    #3. Romans 8:9 says if he a man does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to him.

    #4. Psalms 73:27 says God will destroy all those who abandon Him (or go a whoring from Him).

    #5. John 15:6 says if a man does not abide in Him, he is cast forth and burned.

    #6. 1 John 1:7 says if we walk in the Light as He is in the Light, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin.

    #7. Romans 11:21-22 says if you do not continue in his goodness you will be cut off. For if God spared not the natural branches (i.e. the Jews), take heed that he can do the same to you (i.e. Gentile believers). The analogy here is that you are branch and Christ is the tree. We need to continue in Christ's righteousness or goodness, not our own righteousness or goodness, or we will be cut off because of unbelief.

    #8. 2 Corinthians 13:5 says,
    "Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates."

    Jesus says my words are spirit. So Jesus spoke in spiritual terms many times. This led to many misunderstanding what Jesus was really saying. Nicodemus thought he was talking in physical terms about being born again through his mother's womb. The 70 disciples stopped following Jesus because they thought he talking about physically drinking blood.

    Now you are switching the goal posts.
    Your point was spiritual and now you want to make it physical.

    You implied that the Son is still a Son spiritually.
    You are implying that certain words in the parable are spiritual.
    I am saying that the words in the parable are SPIRITUAL, too.
    But you are only selecting that part of the words you choose to be spiritual to make your belief work.

    #1. The son is said by the Father to have been dead (this is in reference to spiritual death).
    #2. The son is said by the Father that he is alive again (this is in reference to spiritual life).

    No. The word "lost" is used.
    We see elsewhere in Scripture that the word "lost" is associated with having to do with not having salvation.

    "For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost." (Luke 19:10).
    "But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:" (2 Corinthians 4:3).

    Let's not be cute. When I say that sin is not separation from God I am saying that it is a separation from God both in fellowship and in their salvation. They have no salvation if they sin and do not repent.

    Sin is spiritual death. This is evident by the first lie that the devil uses in the Garden with Eve, when he said to her, "Yea, ye shall not surely die." (Genesis 3:4).

    Peter said to Simon to repent of his wickedness and pray that he would be forgiven (Acts of the Apostles 8:22).
    You cannot be saved and yet also not be forgiven.
    Matthew 6:15 says he that does not forgive will not be forgiven by the Father.

    But they are not really true warnings for you, though. If Matthew 5:22, Matthew 6:15, Luke 9:26, and 1 John 3:15 do not equate with spiritual death for you if you were to disobey these truths in Scripture. You do not believe that a believer's disobedience to God's laws leads to spiritual death. So there is nothing to really worry about anything. Hence, why it would not be a warning for you. Ultimately there is no real danger. Break in fellowship? Who cares right? A believer has got your golden ticket to Heaven! It does not really matter how one lives in this life. Just believe on Jesus and go back to our old life.

    But it doesn't really work like that.

    The Parable of the Lost Sheep

    1 "Then drew near unto him all the publicans and sinners for to hear him.
    2 And the Pharisees and scribes murmured, saying, This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them.
    3 And he spake this parable unto them, saying,
    4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
    5 And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.
    6 And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.
    7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance." (Luke 15:1-7).

    See Luke 15:7. It relates to Luke 15:1-6.

    Really? Jesus relates the REJOICING in finding of a lost coin (Luke 15:8-9) with the REJOICING in heaven when a sinner repents (Luke 15:10).

    No. That is not true.

    In the Parable of the Lost Sheep, Jesus says,
    "I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth." (Luke 15:7).

    In the Parable of the Lost Coin, Jesus says,
    "Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth." (Luke 15:10).

    Not true. Please see above verses I gave to you.

    Again, see the verses above.

    Thank you for the insult again. I will rejoice in God may Savior.

    Anyways, may God's love shine upon you this fine day.


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    Last edited: Jun 28, 2017
  6. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Good afternoon Mick.

    Posts cannot be deleted unless by Admin approval. They can only be edited by hitting the "edit" button at the bottom left hand corner of your post(s). In time, older posts cannot be edited. Not sure of the length of time it takes.

    I hope this helps.

    May God bless you today.

    Sincerely,

    ~ Jason.



    ...
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2017
  7. ChristianIssues

    ChristianIssues Newbie

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    Thanks Jason. I was experimenting with things trying to figure out how to quote etc.
     
  8. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    I would recommend creating a Word document or use Google's Online Docs to save certain posts that you write that you really like.

    You can also find older posts of what you have written on Google.

    Simply go to Google and write the following and then hit enter.

    ____(type in keywords of your post and username here)_____ site:christianforums.com​

    You can actually search any website by using this method.

    For cross reference searches I love openbible.org

    I type in the verse in Google and then type openbible

    I also like BlueLetterBible.org for keyword searches, as well (of which you probably know about).

    Biblehub.com is my favorite website for reading passages. I like the layout of their website and I can quickly flip back and forth between looking at different versions to then reading the Scriptures fully in the KJV.

    I know these things are not exactly CF related type tools but I find them extremely invaluable when I write on the forums.

    Hope this Christian writing forum tips help.

    May God bless you.

    Sincerely,

    ~ Jason.


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  9. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Oh, and one big tip here at CF.
    Try to write in a third person way and try not to involve the actual poster when talking about Soteriology or the topic of Salvation. It is generally condemned here on the forums if it appears like we are judging a person's salvation specifically.

    For example: Do not say or imply that Rick is not saved. Say things like Eternal Security is a doctrine that does not bring life but only death. Never imply or even suggest that the person you are talking to is not saved. You can get banned for doing so (if you gain enough points in doing so).

    But we can judge a belief like Eternal Security. However, one exception to this rule is Catholicism. You cannot condemn the belief of Catholicism here. Judging Catholicism here does not go over too well (And you can potentially receive points and eventually get banned for it). At least, that was my experience, anyways.


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  10. wayfaring man

    wayfaring man Veteran

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    And who is in the position to definitively declare who has fulfilled the above stipulation ?

    Which still leaves us with the distinct possibility of thinking we have "fully trusted" when in deed we have only 'partially trusted'.

    His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb.
    Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.
    Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe?
    Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.
    <---> John 16:29-32

    Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
    And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
    <---> Matthew 7:22-23

    Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. <---> 2 Timothy 2:19

    For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself.
    But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another. <---> Galatians 6:3-4

    But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
    <---> Hebrews 3:6

    And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
    But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
    <---> Matthew 24:12-13

    There can be a fine line between being under and over confident.

    And confidence is like rain - too little and we 'dry up'...too much and we 'drown'.
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2017
  11. ChristianIssues

    ChristianIssues Newbie

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    I can't figure out how to do your searches on Google. I tried the above but got nowhere. Can you give me an example of a search so I can see exactly how you do it?

    I use e-sword for all notes and comparing translations so am happy with that but would like to know how you search Google.

    God bless,
    Mick
     
  12. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Here is an example of a screen capture of what it would look like before you would hit enter.

    [​IMG]

    Instead of putting Jason0047 you can put in your name "Mick" in it's place instead.
    Instead of searching the topic of "Eternal Security" you can search "New Testament Pacifism" instead.
    Instead of searching christianforums.com, you can search christianheadlines.com

    Make sure you have a " : " after the word "site."
    And leave out the www. that comes before a website name.


    ...
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2017
  13. ChristianIssues

    ChristianIssues Newbie

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    Thanks mate. I was trying to find a sentence in a forum.

    Also, thanks for the other tips. I have been accused of being without the Spirit, totally unsaved, a heretic, a pharisee, self-righteous and "you name it" on many sites. I think it is utterly counter productive.

    God bless,
    Mick
     
  14. aiki

    aiki Regular Member

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    What does any of this have to do with properly understanding what Jesus said about his parable of the Sower and the Seed? Nothing, really. Jesus says we must be born again. Yes. But his parable of the Sower and Seed is mainly about what prevents spiritual birth from happening.

    Peter says we are "born of incorruptible seed." Yes, and? Was he referring to Christ's parable when he wrote this? He gives no indication that he was. Was Jesus thinking of Peter's words when he gave his parable of the Sower and Seed? Not likely! Peter's letters came decades after Christ's ascension into heaven. What, then, does quoting Peter have to do with Jesus' parable? Nothing. Nothing at all. And even if it did have something to do with the parable, your quotation from Peter affects nothing that I have written!

    What is about salvation? The whole parable? It's not about people being saved (except for the last hearer) but about what prevents people from being saved (ie. the first three hearers). This is so obvious I'm astonished I have to say so!

    This isn't what Jesus says. You're reading this into his words. And as I pointed out in my last post, his description of the second and third hearers give us no reason to think they were truly saved. You have simply ignored what I argued in my last which suggests to me you have no good answer. How does "have no root" equate to "saved"?

    I have also pointed out in an earlier post that not every sort of belief is a saving belief. The apostle James makes this clear. (Ja. 2:19) So, when Jesus uses the word "believe," it is an assumption that you must make to conclude he is speaking of a saving sort of belief. In fact, he is not speaking of any such belief because those who heard and believed and then abandoned their belief demonstrate in doing so that their belief was not of a saving kind. And Jesus said as much when he said that the second hearer "had no root in himself." So what's all this about him being saved? That's just clearly false.

    You misunderstood. I was speaking of the parable of the Prodigal Son, not the one about the Sower and Seed. Your references here do not have anything to do with the latter parable and my comments about it.

    So, where is the word "fellowship" in this verse?

    Eh, no. Knowing does not imply fellowship. That's patently false. I know a great many people with whom I have no fellowship at all. You probably do, too. So, where's the "salvation equates to fellowship" rule in this verse? I don't see it. Because it's not there.

    Yes? It doesn't say one word about fellowship being necessary to salvation. Not one. Again, you have to read this into the verse - which is something you do quite a lot with Scripture.

    Burning signifies uselessness, not a loss of salvation. (See Ezekiel 15:1-5.) The idea of uselessness is emphasized in verse 5 of John 15 where Christ says, "without me you can do nothing."

    Nothing about fellowship with God being vital to salvation in this verse...

    A genuinely saved person will "continue in God's goodness." He may sin, but ceasing entirely from the goodness of God just isn't possible for a true believer. (1Jn. 2:19) It is the "tare," the false convert, who does such a thing.

    Nothing here about fellowship being vital to salvation. It's good advice Paul gives here, though,
    given how many false converts there are going about thinking they are actually saved.

    This is simply a deflection of my point. "The meaning is spiritual," is not a good argument against what I've pointed out. Of course the parable has a spiritual meaning. Just not the one you're trying to give it. I have explained the import of the parable to the issue of salvation while maintaining a sensible, true-to-the-analogy, perspective. You haven't. Instead, under the banner of "It's all spiritual!", you are warping and twisting the parable badly out of shape.

    You are the one who started talking of corpses at dinner, not me. My point is spiritual - but without playing fast-and-loose with the physical realities of the parable. I can't say the same for you.

    The father said his son was dead. We know the son was not, in fact, dead. He was living it up, wasting his inheritance, and finally ended up, starving, in a pigpen. Doesn't sound like a dead guy to me. Quite obviously, the father did not mean his son was literally dead. So, what did he mean? If his son wasn't really dead, in what sense did the Father mean that he was? Does the father say he meant "dead" in a spiritual sense? No. Does Jesus say this? No. The father and son, though, were separated from each other. The father had no idea of the condition of his boy. They had no father-son fellowship with each other. Could this be what the father meant by "My son who was dead"? Well, of course! Insofar as the son was absent from his father and their fellowship broken, the son was "dead" to his father. None of what I've laid out here requires any slippery interpretive footwork, no over-spiritualizing of the text to make it fit a doctrinal bias. The parable as it is given easily and comfortably fits the OSAS view.

    And here is one of the reasons why you're getting your wires so badly crossed. A word in one context does not necessarily carry the same meaning in another. This is definitely the case with Scripture.

    Well, clearly, I don't agree.

    This is the ultimate consequence of sin - if one is not clothed in the perfect righteousness of Christ by faith in him as Saviour and submission to him as Lord. If one has been saved and "accepted in the beloved" they have been forever saved from Sin's ultimate consequence.

    Where am I told in Scripture by God to worry? Isn't worry an expression of fear? Yes. And isn't fear the enemy of properly and fully loving God? (Matt. 22:36-38) Yes, it is. "He who fears has not been made perfect in God's love." (1Jn. 4:19)

    This is the BIG problem with the SAL doctrine: It makes obedience to God about Self-preservation rather than about loving God. Self is the enemy of God, the source of all our sin. How can you, then, believe a doctrine that has Self as its focus rather than God?

    Wrong! Totally wrong! Break fellowship with the God I love? Not if I can help it! But not because I fear Him, but because fellowship with Him is so incredible. You don't seem to understand such a motive at all. That's very, very sad. And very destructive.

    Why do SAL folk trot out this Strawman you've offered here so often? It's such a pathetic and false cartoon of reality.

    Don't see anywhere here that the sheep repented...

    Yup. But, as I said, the coin that was found repented of nothing. It was a coin. An inanimate object.

    What is really fantastic about these parables is how they demonstrate the initiative God takes with us in both finding us and keeping us with Him. He finds His wayward sheep. He searches for his lost "coin." He doesn't stand with His arms crossed over His chest, frowning, determined that He will do nothing to help His children find their way back into fellowship with Himself. What a good and great God He is!

    What a magnificent martyr you are! I'm sure God is very impressed!

    You, too!
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2017
  15. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    My pleasure. You are most welcome.
    Yeah, I know what you mean. I have been called Jason666, Wolf, etc. on other forums before.
    Jesus says we are to rejoice when we are falsely accused by others.
    I had even been wrongfully banned on another forum (Christianchat) because they did not like me preaching against Eternal Security there. The one lady falsey accused me that I was judging people's salvation personally (when I did not do so). I tried to talk to the owner of the site several times and nothing was done about it. So I can relate brother.

    I also talked on TheologyOnline, as well. But they unloaded alot of their old posts there. So alot of my many posts there are lost and no more. Most of my previous experiences with OSAS proponents in the past were not so good. It was the usual name calling and outrageous claims about my character instead of just sticking with Scripture in love and respect.

    Anyways, stay strong in the power of His might and love your enemies in return.


    ...
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2017
  16. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    The Bible breathes as a cohesive whole. It's why there are things called "cross references" in the Bible.
    Granted, while the Bible does have homonyms within it, there would have to be some pretty darn good evidence to the contrary besides what you presented. So far, the words I shown you in Scripture stand against what you have said. If you don't want to see the words of Scripture I shown you, I cannot help that. Pray to the Lord to reveal to you what it really says (and not what you prefer to it to say).

    What are you talking about? Salvation is an aspect in all three parables in Luke 15. Repentance is mentioned in all three of them (Luke 15:7, Luke 15:10, Luke 15:18).

    Well, you are making an assumption that "having no root" equates with not being saved because of your belief in Eternal Security and you are not letting the text tell you what things mean. Let me show you.

    11 "Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
    12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
    13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away."

    Okay. Verse 12 says that the word "believe" equates with "being saved."
    Following this context from verse with the understanding that "believe = be saved" we then read in verse 13 about how there are those who believe for a while. This means they were saved for a while because they believed for a while because the word "believe" equates with "being saved" in verse 12. It then explains how they fell away. It was by temptation. Temptation made them fall away from being saved. It does not get any clearer than that.

    James 2 deals with Sanctification (the next stage or step in the salvation process) after Justification (Which is accepting Christ as one's Savior and believing that He died and had risen three days later on their behalf). A person is initially saved without any works by the milk of the Word (i.e. The first part of the gospel message - Which is believing in Christ's death and resurrection). This is how a person is first saved. They receive the word with joy and believe for a while, but in time of temptation they fall away because they have no root in the Word (i.e. they did not root themselves in God's Word by studying to show themselves approved unto God - 2 Timothy 2:15). For God's people are destroyed for lack of knowledge.

    Really? You can't be serious. He that has the Son. If you have the Son that implies a fellowship. To "have" something implies a possession. Jesus says I am the way, the truth, and the LIFE (John 14:6). 1 John 5:11 says, " God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son." Verse 11 says here that this LIFE is in his Son. Jesus says "I am LIFE." So you cannot have LIFE without Jesus. For Jesus alone has immortality (1 Timothy 6:16). It's why Jesus says to abide in Him and His words (John 15:7). For those who do not abide in Him are cast into the fire and burned (John 15:6). John 15:14 says, "Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you." Friends imply a fellowship. This is tied to fruit bearing.
    John 15:16 says, "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain."

    In the Bible, the word "know" has been used many times to refer to sexual intercourse. This implies also a fellowship with that person. So I would say... "no." You are simply ignoring what the Bible says here. Knowing somebody implies that you are in fellowship with them. If a person says they know the Lord, it is most commonly understood that they are talking about their relationship with Him.

    Romans 8:9 uses the word "have" which talks about a possesion. If someone is in your possesion than you are in fellowship with them. Obviously you are simply desperate to not want to see what these verses plainly say. So it is understandable why you replied in such a way.

    Already addressed this above.

    No. 1 John 1:7 says,

    (a) If we walk in the light as he is in the light.
    Obviously the light we walk in is the light of Christ.
    Jesus says, "I am the light of the world."
    John 1:9 says about Jesus,
    "That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world."

    (b) The blood of Jesus cleanses from all sin.
    You cannot be forgiven without the blood of Jesus.
    So we have to WALK. WALK. WALk in the light as He (Jesus) is in the light.
    Walking in the light of Christ implies a fellowship with the One who is the "Light of the world."

    1 John 2:19 is in reference to the gnostics that John was warning the brethren about. This was not a universal truth on how believers cannot fall away. A person has to falsely assume that in this text in order for it to say that. Actually, we know believers can be right with God and then fall away spiritually later. Adam caused a separation (salvation wise) between God and man by his one sin. Why you think things have changed is beyond me.

    Yes, this verse is teaching that it is vital to have Jesus in your life to be saved. Paul says prove that Christ be IN you unless you be reprobate. John says, he that says he knows him and does not keep his commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him (1 John 2:4).

    Christ does the good work in us. So the keeping of His commands is confirmation that we know Him (1 John 2:3-6).

    Just hitting the disagree button does not really prove your case that you are right in any way. The parable of the prodigal son lines up with the theme of the other parables about repentance and salvation. If we are talking repentance and salvation, then words like "death" and "life" have important meanings here. But because they disagree with your belief in Eternal Security, you conveniently write them off.

    Again, you want the parable to be about how just being a "son" implies that he is forever a "son" who is saved no matter what he does. But that is not the reality or truth of the parable. Jesus compared these spiritual truths with the real world, so you cannot change things around. Sons die in this world. Yet, if they believe in Jesus, they will one day live again.

    Seeing the theme is about salvation in all three parables because it mentions repentance, the parable of the prodigal son is dealing with salvation when talking about life and death. For other times these words life and death appear many other times in the Bible relating to salvation. Again, you conveniently choose to ignore these things because they do not fit your personal wrong belief.

    Not at all. I believe the Bible has homonyms within in it. The context determines how a word is used. But you are simply ignoring the context that I have shown you in favor of a belief you want to be true.

    Yeah, I do not see Christ's sacrifice undoing the devil's original lie. I still see sin as spiritual death in the New Testament in many places (Matthew 5:22, Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Galatians 5:19-21, 1 John 3:15). For example: Matthew 6:15 applies only to the believer because it would do no good to tell unbelievers to forgive because they first need to accept Jesus as their Savior.

    Jesus says fear the One who can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna (Matthew 10:28).

    How do you perfect love? 1 John 2:5 tells us.

    "But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him." (1 John 2:5).

    Actually, allowing the Lord's good works to flow through your life is about self denial and not about what you want. It is about surrendering to God and His will.

    The other alternative is sin and selfishness along with wanting to be saved.

    It can be summed up in the simplicity in John 12:25 that says,
    "He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal."

    James 1 says,
    21 "Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
    22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves."
    (James 1:21-22).

    Well, men like George Sodini thought they could do whatever they like and still be saved because of Eternal Security. But things really do not work out for him all that well. Oh, and he is not the only one who has committed suicide because of a belief in OSAS. While you may not think the wrong thing, there are others who do. If they were told the truth, they may not have done what they did (Knowing that suicide is a sin that cannot be repented of).

    Tell that to the families of Kenneth Nally and Bubba.

    Verses 1-6 talks about 99 sheep left behind and Jesus finds a lost sheep. This is then equated with verse 7 that says, "I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance." (Luke 15:7).

    But the reality still is that the lost coin is equated with a lost sinner who repented. You either accept what it says at face value in the text or don't.

    God does seek to save the lost, but they have to genuinely repent. I just do not see true repentance as lining up with the belief in Eternal Security because it justifies the idea or concept that a person can sin and still be saved.

    I am merely going off what His Word says. He says if we are falsely accused, then we are to rejoice. I am merely telling you this because that is what the Word says. I did not write the Word of God. God did.

    I am seeking to please God and not men.
    That is what is important to me.

    Anyways, peace be unto you in the Lord.
    And may your day be blessed.


    ...
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2017
  17. TheSeabass

    TheSeabass Well-Known Member

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    To anyone that holds to the position of OSAS-EA-POTS. Below is a link to the Salvation (Soteriology) page where it is claimed that the Christian can turn to live in fornication (as happened in 1 Cor 5)--the Christian can turn his back on God and be out of fellowship with God, walk in darkness, lie yet never lose his salvation because (as claimed) Christ has promised unconditional salvation.

    Eternal Security and Apostasy
    Post numbers 118-120



    An informal poll for those that agree with OSAS/ES/POTS, do you also agree with this?
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2017
  18. aiki

    aiki Regular Member

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    Well your standard for what is "pretty darn good" is, it seems to me, entirely subjective. I suspect no amount of evidence would persuade you from your present position.

    I have both seen and questioned you on them and offered a reasonable, legitimate alternative understanding of them which you have either ignored, deflected or flat-out denied. The myopia of which you accuse me is not all on one side.

    I wrote:

    What is about salvation? The whole parable? It's not about people being saved (except for the last hearer) but about what prevents people from being saved (ie. the first three hearers). This is so obvious I'm astonished I have to say so!


    You wrote:

    What are you talking about? Salvation is an aspect in all three parables in Luke 15. Repentance is mentioned in all three of them (Luke 15:7, Luke 15:10, Luke 15:18).

    You should read more carefully. I did not deny salvation was a theme in the parable of the Sower and Seed, which is what my comment above was in connection to. Your response here is a deflection from my point about the parable speaking to what prevents genuine salvation from taking place.

    No, it doesn't. Verse 12 does not equate believe with being saved. This is your bias clouding your reading of the verse. As Christ points out, believing is a necessary step to salvation - "believe and be saved" - but he does not use the terms synonymously. In other words, salvation and believe are not identical, they don't equate the one to the other. They are related, however, which is all that Christ points out in verse 12. Salvation is spiritual regeneration; it is becoming a "new creature in Christ"; it is being redeemed and adopted by God and forever changed as a consequence. This happens by way of our faith, by dint of our belief, but our belief is not salvation itself; Christ and the life-giving transformation he works in us is our salvation.

    As I've just pointed out, you are reading more into the text than is there. Those who "believe for a time" are not necessarily saved which is what their "have no root" and their falling away reveals. This is very obvious to an honest, open reader.

    See above.

    Not one bit of your response here actually dealt with my point about not all belief being a saving belief. Again, a deflection.

    Which only implies relationship, not fellowship. I have many things in my possession with which I have no fellowship whatsoever. My car, or t.v., or hair dryer are examples. You are so keen to find ground for your view that you are stretching Scripture to fit. Very unwise.

    What does any of this have to do with proving that possession is synonymous with fellowship or with showing that this is what 1 John 5:12 implies? Air and water are both vital to my existence; I need them to live. But do I have fellowship with either thing? No. Every living thing on the Earth relies upon God for existence but not every thing, therefore, has fellowship with Him. I don't see, then, that Christ being life necessarily means we have fellowship with him. Certainly, this is not made plain in the verse in question. You are having to read this into the verse. Again.

    And so? What does John 15:14 have to do with 1 John 5:12? Jumping around from verse to verse as though they are all directly related to each other is a very poor hermeneutic to employ. So far, you have yet to show that I am wrong in pointing out that 1 John 5:12 doesn't say anything about fellowship.

    Does a man using a prostitute for sex have fellowship with her? Not hardly! He may not even know her name! I know my neighbor but she and I don't have fellowship with each other. I know who Donald Trump is but I don't have fellowship with him. Clearly, "know" does not equal "fellowship." Your denial of this in order to sustain your view is just making you look desperate and unreasonable.

    I make a distinction between relationship and fellowship. I can have a relationship with my boss at work without having fellowship with him. I have a relationship with my grandmother but we almost never see each other so we can't claim to have fellowship with each other. I can have a relationship with God through Christ and yet not enjoy intimate, joyful fellowship with Him. Relationship and fellowship are not the same thing.

    I wrote:

    Burning signifies uselessness, not a loss of salvation. (See Ezekiel 15:1-5.) The idea of uselessness is emphasized in verse 5 of John 15 where Christ says, "without me you can do nothing."

    You wrote:

    Already addressed this above.

    No, you didn't. You simply made a counter assertion about the verse without at all addressing what I have pointed out about it.

    But the verse, as I pointed out, says nothing about fellowship being vital to salvation. It says if we walk in the light as God does, we have fellowship with Him. But it doesn't say if we don't walk in the light, we will lose our salvation. At best, you could assert from the verse that if we fail to walk in the light, we lose our fellowship with God (though, not our relationship to Him).

    Says who? Where does John say anything explicit about gnostics in chapter 2? Certainly, nothing in the verse itself gives you grounds to make this slippery interpretation of it.

    Adam was not saved when he walked with God in Eden. That's a strange thing to assert. Salvation was only necessary after Adam had sinned and available only after Christ's atonement at Calvary. So Adam was not saved and then lost. There are some very...odd ideas that frame your SAL doctrine.

    This is a facile and careless response. You don't actually engage with anything I wrote about the Prodigal Son parable here but just offer a series of counter assertions that arise out of your perspective. Simply restating your views doesn't do anything to rebut mine. If you want to show my views to be faulty, you must actually deal with them, demonstrating that they are unreasonable, or mishandle Scripture, or misunderstand context. Simply repeating your own line of thinking or making general statements about the parables doesn't do this. I have never denied that the parables have themes of repentance and salvation. How those themes are expressed in the parables and the import of these themes is what is at issue. So far, you haven't demonstrated at all that my perspective on them is illegitimate. Generally, you've simply stated your views as though it ought to be taken for granted that they are correct.

    In all the verses from Matthew that you offer here Christ is not speaking to saved people. He hasn't yet died on the cross and so salvation is not yet available to anyone. So, yes, sin does produce death (Ro. 6:23) but Christ's teachings to this effect in the verses you've offered from Matthew do not indicate that sin can undo God's salvation of a person.

    The passage from Galatians 5 speaking about the works of the flesh does not say that one can lose one's salvation, only that a lifestyle of fleshly living will keep one from God's kingdom. This is uncontroversial to the OSAS view. If someone is living in the way Paul describes in Galatians 5:19-21, they are clearly not saved and so will not inherit God's kingdom.

    What can be said for Paul's words in Galatians 5 can also be said for John's words in 1 John 3:15. Anyone claiming to be saved who has hatred in their heart toward their brother is not truly saved; for a truly saved person does not nurture hate within themselves for others. This verse, then, doesn't teach a saved-and-lost doctrine, but teaches how a person may recognize that they are not actually saved.

    I wrote:

    Where am I told in Scripture by God to worry? Isn't worry an expression of fear? Yes. And isn't fear the enemy of properly and fully loving God? (Matt. 22:36-38)

    You wrote:

    Jesus says fear the One who can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna (Matthew 10:28).

    So, what am I to make of your response? Are you saying the Bible contradicts itself? Are you pitting one verse against another? How does that handle Scripture well?

    In Matthew 10:28, Christ is not speaking to saved people. He is warning the lost of their terrible eternal jeopardy. To those who are saved, however, we have Paul's command:

    Philippians 4:6-7
    6 Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God;
    7 and the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

    We also have John's words:

    1 John 4:18
    18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love.

    Jesus taught that the First and Great Commandment of God's law is to love God with all of one's being (Matt. 22:36-28) How, then, can a disciple of Christ obey this law, how can they obey also Paul's command not to be anxious about anything and live in the light of John's words about love casting out fear, and be at all fearful?


    And why do we keep God's word? Why do we obey Him? Because we love Him. God will accept from us no obedience from us that does not arise from a love-motive:

    1 Corinthians 13:1-3
    1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.
    2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
    3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing.


    Amen!

    One man's experience does not and cannot taint the whole of the community of those who hold to the OSAS view. What matters is not the experience of George Sodini but the truth of Scripture. I know of former SAL subscribers who were made totally anxious, depressed and suicidal as a consequence of thinking they could lose their salvation.

    But how do those "dead in trespasses and sins" who "walk according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air" (Eph. 2:1-3) who know only a fleshly, sinful life ever truly repent? As Paul says to Timothy, "God must give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth." (2 Ti. 2:25) Our salvation is all God's doing, just as the sheep being found was all the doing of the shepherd and the coin being found all the labour of the woman seeking it. The parables, then, are really demonstrating God's central and vital role in our repentance and putting the onus upon Him for our repentance. Left to ourselves and relying upon ourselves for repentance, we would never repent.

    Peace and blessing to you, too.
     
  19. AntiVillain

    AntiVillain Member

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    On a secondary note:

    I'm sick of people using "free will" to blame others for their bad decisions, but not using it to credit them for their good ones (instead, the former people often say stuff like, "The Lord led you to choose well").

    You can't have your cake and eat it, too; either I'm responsible for all my decisions (including the good ones), or I should at least get to blame Satan whenever I mess up.
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2017
  20. TheSeabass

    TheSeabass Well-Known Member

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    Again, in another thread on this forum a OSASer is arguing a person can be both an apostate and be saved. Do any others here that support OSAS take this same position that an apostate will be saved?
     
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