Can a Christian lose his/her salvation?

[aiki]

Again, in another thread on this forum a OSASer is arguing a person can be both an apostate and be saved. Do any others here that support OSAS take this same position that an apostate will be saved?

No. An apostate reveals in their apostasy that they were never truly saved to begin with.

 

[TheSeabass]

No. An apostate reveals in their apostasy that they were never truly saved to begin with.

In the other thread, a OSASer is arguing from 1 Corinthians 3:9-16 that the person's sinful works will be burned but the person himself will be saved anyway. Agree? Disagree?

 

[bbbbbbb]

In the other thread, a OSASer is arguing from 1 Corinthians 3:9-16 that the person's sinful works will be burned but the person himself will be saved anyway. Agree? Disagree?

That is what the text does say.

I Corinthians 3:11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work. 14 If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

 

[aiki]

In the other thread, a OSASer is arguing from 1 Corinthians 3:9-16 that the person's sinful works will be burned but the person himself will be saved anyway. Agree? Disagree?

That's what the passage says. I can't but agree with it. Don't you?

 

[aiki]

I'm not so sure that the works that are burned up are necessarily sinful, by the way. They are simply built upon the wrong foundation: Christ himself.

 

[TheSeabass]

That is what the text does say.

I Corinthians 3:11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work. 14 If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

So if a Christian turns to live and die impenitently in adultery, then why does 1 Cor 3 apply and not 1 John 2:19?

Why was this man "not really saved to begin with" per 1 John 2:19 as some OSASers would argue?

I do not know how many times I have been told Simon (Acts 8) was never really saved to begin with simply because he committed a sin.

 

[TheSeabass]

That's what the passage says. I can't but agree with it. Don't you?

I do not agree with your interpretation of 1 Cor 3. The "works" in the context are converts, making converts is how the church is built. For in the context Paul is metaphorically comparing building a building to building the church. The church is built by the work of making converts and this 'work' -convert will be judged. Those works/converts that are judged to be saved, then the person that worked to make that convert will receive a reward for that saved convert. Those works/coverts judged to be lost, then then one that made that convert will suffer a sense of loss over that lost work/convert but not be lost himself....if he remains faithful 1 Corinthians 9:27.



But my issue here is not about the interpretation of 1 Cor 3. My issue is of a Christian turns to impenitently live and die in adultery then how is it determined if 1 Cor 3 applies to him (be saved anyway) of if 1 John 2:19 applies to him (never really saved to begin with)? One interpretation of 1 Cor or 1 Jn 2:19 must be wrong.
(In reality, OSAS interpret both passages wrongly but the contradiction proves one must be wrong.)

 

[TheSeabass]

I'm not so sure that the works that are burned up are necessarily sinful, by the way. They are simply built upon the wrong foundation: Christ himself.

So if a Christian who turns to impenitently live and die in adultery, his sinful work of adultery will not be burned up? He will carry that sin into heaven with him then?

 

[Vyrzaharak]

I'd suggest that it's a paradox or contradiction and therefore, unless or until the action of salvation is manifested in itself there can be no insurance that one ever had been saved.

 

[TheSeabass]

I'd suggest that it's a paradox or contradiction and therefore, unless or until the action of salvation is manifested in itself there can be no insurance that one ever had been saved.

It is a contradiction due to misinterpretation not due to being a paradox.

 

[aiki]

I do not agree with your interpretation of 1 Cor 3. The "works" in the context are converts, making converts is how the church is built. For in the context Paul is metaphorically comparing building a building to building the church. The church is built by the work of making converts and this 'work' -convert will be judged. Those works/converts that are judged to be saved, then the person that worked to make that convert will receive a reward for that saved convert. Those works/coverts judged to be lost, then then one that made that convert will suffer a sense of loss over that lost work/convert but not be lost himself....if he remains faithful 1 Corinthians 9:27.

Well, let's see:

1 Corinthians 3:10-16
10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it.

What's the "foundation" Paul is talking about here? He begins to explain in the verses just prior to this one:

1 Corinthians 3:9 (NKJV)
9 For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, you are God's building.

Paul doesn't describe those he has led to Christ as "foundations" but as "fields" and "buildings." He doesn't describe them as "works," either.

11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

So, Christ is the foundation. For what? For the "buildings" of converts Paul has made? Maybe. What else does Paul say?

12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,
13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is.

Okay, so Paul describes what is built on the foundation of Christ as either fire-resistant metals and gems or highly combustible materials. The obvious question here is that if by "work" Paul meant "building," which is figurative for "convert," how can converts be of such widely varying kinds? It isn't that what is built upon the foundation changes from gold to hay, or from a precious stone to wood. Paul makes no such assertion, nor does he even imply it. If, then, the "work," or convert, that is built on the foundation of Christ is wood, hay, or straw from the outset, can that convert be considered to be a genuine one? It doesn't look like it to me. If one wants to read this passage as you are Seabass, then it seems to me Paul is actually indicating that some converts are not true converts which will be revealed on the Last Day by the testing of them by divine fire.

14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward.

Reading "work" as "convert," Paul remarks here that those one leads to the Lord who are shown to be genuine in their faith will garner a reward for the one who converted them. Good news!

15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

And here Paul teaches that even if one's converts, or "work," are shown to be false, it will not jeopardize one's own salvation.

So, reading this passage with your lense, Seabass, I still don't see that it supports SAL or confounds OSAS.

 

[aiki]

So if a Christian who turns to impenitently live and die in adultery, his sinful work of adultery will not be burned up? He will carry that sin into heaven with him then?

No genuine Christian will do as you describe here, Seabass.

 

[bbbbbbb]

So if a Christian turns to live and die impenitently in adultery, then why does 1 Cor 3 apply and not 1 John 2:19?

Why was this man "not really saved to begin with" per 1 John 2:19 as some OSASers would argue?

I do not know how many times I have been told Simon (Acts 8) was never really saved to begin with simply because he committed a sin.

Where did I state that if a Christian turns to live and die impenitently in adultery, then 1 Cor 3 applies and not 1 John 2:19?

I really cannot speak to your personal experiences with others. I suggest that you take up these matters with them.

 

[Danthemailman]

That is what the text does say.

I Corinthians 3:11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work. 14 If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

Amen! The truth is crystal clear here. The foundation is Jesus Christ. The works of believers are built on the foundation. Works that are revealed with fire as being gold, silver, precious stones (receives a reward) and works that are revealed as wood, hay, straw will be burned up and the believer will suffer loss (of reward), but will be saved.

 

[TheSeabass]

Well, let's see:

Paul said of himslef he can become a reprobate ( adokimos) [1 Cor 9:27] so anything added to the context of 1 Cor 3 that claims the Christian cannot be lost under any circumstance, cannot be lost no matter what the Christian does should be 100% rejected.

1 Corinthians 3:10-16
10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it.

Paul is talking about building the church there at Corinth by making the initial converts there, hence Paul "laid the foundation". Apollos came behind Paul and made more converts "built upon that foundation". Paul and Apollos worked together, fellow laborers there in Corinth and those Corinthians should not have divided themselves by some following Paul and others follow Apollos.

"For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building."

Those Corinthians were figuratively a "field" (husbandry) a mission "field" where God had sent Paul and Apollos to work (plant and water) while God would give the increase. Those Corinthians were then called God's building. Paul now calls figuratively calls them a "building" of God's i.e., God's church.

What's the "foundation" Paul is talking about here? He begins to explain in the verses just prior to this one:

1 Corinthians 3:9 (NKJV)
9 For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, you are God's building.

Paul doesn't describe those he has led to Christ as "foundations" but as "fields" and "buildings." He doesn't describe them as "works," either.

According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

Christ is the founder of the church, therefore Paul calls himself just a builder of the church, a wise master builder. Christ was the founder of the church Paul just "built" the congregation at Corinth. Paul being a "wise masterbuilder" is that he was in a sense a good building contractor in that he followed the specs and blueprint of the Founder. Had Paul not followed the blueprint, the plans of the Founder, then what Paul would have built in Corinth would have been a worthless man-made "building", it would not be of God, not the church that Christ founded - just a man made denomination. So a builder better "take heed" how he builds upon the foundation that Christ established.

11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

So, Christ is the foundation. For what? For the "buildings" of converts Paul has made? Maybe. What else does Paul say?

For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

So no man can go out and start a religious organization and call it the church that Christ founded. If it does not follow specs and blueprints of Christ, it is a false church built with flawed plans built by one who was NOT wise. God has determined what the foundation of HIS church will be (Matthew 16:16-18; Ephesians 2:20) Eph 2:20 "And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;" Christ is the cornerstone. So the "building" (church) built upon the Chief corner stone will only be as strong the work (converts) made (Ephesians 4:16). Again, if the builder (maker of converts) does NOT make those converts according to the Founders plans, then he has not created the church with Christians but a man made organization that goes by man made theologies. Christ was the foundation laid by Paul for the church at Corinth to be built upon by his preaching of the Founder's word. (Apostles and prophets were teachers, therefore Peter was NOT the foundation, but his preaching/teaching of Christ's NT word with that NT word the foundation the church is built upon.)

1 Corinthians 9:1 "Am I not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord?"

12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,
13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is.

Okay, so Paul describes what is built on the foundation of Christ as either fire-resistant metals and gems or highly combustible materials. The obvious question here is that if by "work" Paul meant "building," which is figurative for "convert," how can converts be of such widely varying kinds? It isn't that what is built upon the foundation changes from gold to hay, or from a precious stone to wood. Paul makes no such assertion, nor does he even imply it. If, then, the "work," or convert, that is built on the foundation of Christ is wood, hay, or straw from the outset, can that convert be considered to be a genuine one? It doesn't look like it to me. If one wants to read this passage as you are Seabass, then it seems to me Paul is actually indicating that some converts are not true converts which will be revealed on the Last Day by the testing of them by divine fire.

Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
The wise masterbuilder must build the church to the specs/blueprint of the Founder. So any man that followed Paul and built upon the foundation at Corinth (made more converts) must also follow the Founders blueprint else he made false Christians. The "materials" used to build the church refers to individuals members, with the church only being as strong as the the "materials" used. The materials listed go from strong to weak, to that which is strong and faithful (saved) to that which can be "burned" (lost). Some materials will be more lasting and durable (faithful) than other materials that will fail due to weak faith.

14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward.

Reading "work" as "convert," Paul remarks here that those one leads to the Lord who are shown to be genuine in their faith will garner a reward for the one who converted them. Good news!

"If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward."

Again, in 1 Corinthians 9:1 Paul calls his converts in Corinth his "work". The context is about the church at Corinth being "built" by Paul the master builder and Apollos who built upon the foundation laid by Paul. The church is not a physical building, so the "work" that is done in "building" the church is making converts. The work of making converts is the only way the church can be "built". Those whose work/converts, when they are tied by fire (judged on judgment day) that abide, then the worker who made that convert will receive a reward.

So it appears you are in agreement that the convert is the work and the builder receives a reward if his 'work' is faithful.

15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

And here Paul teaches that even if one's converts, or "work," are shown to be false, it will not jeopardize one's own salvation.

So, reading this passage with your lense, Seabass, I still don't see that it supports SAL or confounds OSAS.

If the 'builders" work (convert) is burned, that is, judged to be lost on judgment day, then the builder of that convert will not be lost (as long as the "builder" remains faithful 1 Cor 9:27).

So the context plainly shows that a "builders" work/convert can become lost (burned), so no OSAS here. These Corinthians, Paul's work, were in doctrinal error on various issues and would be lost if they did not repent and follow Paul's instructions to them.
Paul had some converts/work in Galatia that had been removed from the gospel Gal 1:5,6, had quit obeying the truth Gal 3:1 Paul was afraid his work with them had been in vain Gal 4:11 ( if they ended up lost his work would be in vain) and Paul told them they had fallen from grace. Hence a "builder" of the church "work" (convert) can fall from grace.

 

[TheSeabass]

No genuine Christian will do as you describe here, Seabass.

It certainly is possible that a Christian can turn to live in adultery.

 

[TheSeabass]

Where did I state that if a Christian turns to live and die impenitently in adultery, then 1 Cor 3 applies and not 1 John 2:19?

I really cannot speak to your personal experiences with others. I suggest that you take up these matters with them.

There are some who support the teaching of OSAS will say if a Christian turns to live and die in adultery, then he was never truly saved using 1 John 2:19 as their proof text, in that he was "never really of us".

Are you using 1 Cor 3 to say the Christian's sinful work will be burned but he will be saved himself? That the Christian CAN live in adultery but on judgment day his sinful work of adultery will be burned but he will be saved anyway?

 

[bbbbbbb]

There are some who support the teaching of OSAS will say if a Christian turns to live and die in adultery, then he was never truly saved using 1 John 2:19 as their proof text, in that he was "never really of us".

Are you using 1 Cor 3 to say the Christian's sinful work will be burned but he will be saved himself? That the Christian CAN live in adultery but on judgment day his sinful work of adultery will be burned but he will be saved anyway?

I see that you failed to address my question, which was, "Where did I state that if a Christian turns to live and die impenitently in adultery, then 1 Cor 3 applies and not 1 John 2:19?"

If you cannot verify your accusation against me, then you are guilty of bearing false witness against me, which is a sin against a holy God. If you remain in that sin, what will become of you after you die?

 

[Ron Gurley]

OP: Q: Can a (true) Christian (Christ-follower) "lose" his/her (John 3 as explained in Ephesians 2) "salvation"?

A: No way, Jose'!

ALL immortal SPIRITS will be judged as to their SPIRITUAL POSITION:
...IN or OUT of the Body of Christ...sheep or goat...wheat or tare...BELIEVERS or UN-BELIEVERS

A Believer's SPIRITUAL POSITION is NOT JUDGED.

John 3:18
He who believes in Him is not judged;
he who does not believe has been judged already,
because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

...Only their spiritual "works"...IN or OUT of the will of God.

2 Corinthians 5: 1-15 (NIV)
10 For we (BELIEVERS) must all appear before the "judgment (bema = awards platform) seat of Christ",
that each one may receive what is due him for the things done (WORKS) while in the BODY,
whether good or bad....

1 Corinthians 3:10-15 (NIV)...Judgment of the BELIEVER'S WORKS

UN-Believer's SPIRITUAL POSITION is JUDGED, and their unforgiven sins will be seen and JUDGED.
They will justly SENTENCED....at the Great White Throne (Revelation).

1 Cor. 3 (ALL NASB)...Judgment of the BELIEVERS' WORKS!..MY COMMENTS INCLUDED
11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man (BELIEVER ONLY!) builds (WORKS) on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,
13 each man’s WORK will become evident;
for "the day" (OF JUDGMENT) will show it (WORKS) because it is to be revealed with fire,
and the fire itself will test the QUALITY of each man’s WORK.
14 If any man’s WORK which he has built on it remains, he will receive a REWARD.
15 If any man’s WORK is burned up, he will suffer loss;(OF REWARDS)
but he himself will be saved,(FROM ETERNAL SPIRITUAL SEPARATION FROM GOD)
yet so as through fire.
SEE:e.g.:
Daniel 3:26...the furnace of blazing fire;...
“Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego, come out, you servants of the Most High God, and come here!”
Then Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego came out of the midst of the fire.

JUDGMENT Seat (bema=awards platform) of Jesus the Christ:
Judgment of the BELIEVER'S WORKS

2 Corinthians 5: 1-15 (NIV) + 1 Corinthians 3:10-15 (NIV) + Romans 14:10b,12 (1-23)

10 For we (BELIEVERS) must all appear before the "judgment (bema = awards platform) seat of Christ",
that each one may receive what is due him (REWARDS OR LOSS) for the things done (WORKS) while in the BODY, whether good or bad....

Romans 14:10b,12...BELIEVERSo not judge "one another"
10b ...For we will all stand before "the judgment seat of God".
12 So then, each of us will be accountable to God....
for whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.

1 John 2...BELIEVERS: Do Not LOVE the "World" (KOZMOS)
18 Children, (BELIEVERS) it is the last hour;

and just as you heard that (THE) antichrist is coming, even now many (spirits of) antichrists have appeared;
from this we know that it is the last hour.
19 They (spirits of antichrists) went out from us, but they were not really OF us;(UN-BELIEVERS)
for if they had been OF us, they would have remained WITH us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us. (BELIEVERS)

20 But you (BELIEVERS) have an anointing from the Holy One (God the Holy Spirit), and you all know.
21 I have not written to you because you do not know the (whole) truth, but because you do (NOW) know it, and because no lie is of the truth.
22 Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is THE Christ (MESSIAH)?

This is THE antichrist,
the one who denies the Father and the Son.

23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father;
the one who confesses the Son has the Father also.
24 As for you (BELIEVERS), let that abide (DWELL) in you which you heard from the beginning.
If what you heard from the beginning abides in you,
you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.

 

[Danthemailman]

OP: Q: Can a (true) Christian (Christ-follower) "lose" his/her (John 3 as explained in Ephesians 2) "salvation"?

A: No way, Jose'!

ALL immortal SPIRITS will be judged as to their SPIRITUAL POSITION:
...IN or OUT of the Body of Christ...sheep or goat...wheat or tare...BELIEVERS or UN-BELIEVERS

Amen! Salvation is not probation. Eternal life is not temporary life. Jesus is the door. He is not a revolving door. Romans 8:30 - Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. ALL of them.